Tinker Discussion Thread

[Monstercloud]

I bumped it for Banestalker, since Darthsitus closed his thread and told him to post in this one, since it was still open. :shrug:

I also happened to notice the debate between Thimagryn and Rhamses, and decided to add my two cents.

No, you bumped it for you. Other people are more than capable of bumping it if they so desired, as well as searching for it if it's not on the first page.

[Traveler Voltin]

why wont this thread die?

[Gamevizier]

I bumped it for Banestalker, since Darthsitus closed his thread and told him to post in this one, since it was still open. :shrug:

I also happened to notice the debate between Thimagryn and Rhamses, and decided to add my two cents.

You have my thanks Teriz. I asked Darhsitus and he/she agreed to unlock it.

[Teriz]

So why is this the point? What does it matter that there's no WoW classes with Tinker or Alchemist abilities from WC3?

The previous two expansion classes were both derived from WC3 hero units. It stands to reason that the next (and probably final) expansion class will also derive from a WC3 hero unit.

What hero units remain without any abilities within the WoW class lineup? The Tinker and the Alchemist. Both of which share a technology theme.

Here's a quick breakdown;

Orcs:
Blademaster: 2 Mages/Warriors
Shadow Hunter: 3 Shaman
Farseer: 4 Shaman
Tauren Chieftain: 3 Warriors/Tauren Racial/Shaman

Humans:
Archemage: 3 Mages
Blood Mage: 3 Mages/Warlocks (Drain Mana has been removed from the game)
Mountain King: 3 Warriors
Paladin: 3 Paladins

Night Elves:
Keeper of the Grove: 4 Druids (Thorns was removed from the game)
Priestess of the Moon: 3 Hunters/Druids
Warden: 2 Mages/Rogues
Demon Hunter: 4 Rogues/Warlocks/Priest (Mana Burn was removed from the game)

Undead:
Death Knight: 4 Death Knight
Lich: 3 Death Knight/Mages
Dreadlord: 4 Warlocks/Death Knights
Crypt Lord: 1 Death Knights/Druids


Neutral:
Naga Sea Witch: 2 Hunters (WoD alpha)/Mages (Mana shield was removed from the game. Replaced with Incanter's Ward in MoP)
Dark Ranger: 3 Hunters/Priests/Warlocks (Drain Life was changed into Harvest Life in MoP)
Brewmaster: 4 Monks
Beastmaster: 1 Hunters
Pit Lord: 3 Warlocks
Goblin Tinker: 0
Firelord: 2 Warlocks
Goblin Alchemist:0

- - - Updated - - -

Seriously.. good necro bud

The mod told me to do it. Plus it was only 10 days.

[Kiradyn]

The previous two expansion classes were both derived from WC3 hero units. It stands to reason that the next (and probably final) expansion class will also derive from a WC3 hero unit.

What hero units remain without any abilities within the WoW class lineup? The Tinker and the Alchemist. Both of which share a technology theme.

That doesn't mean that the next class will use that theme. Its also perfectly possible that the Engineering and Alchemy professions are the representations of those hero units. So all of that you just typed means nothing. It's simply your opinion.

[Teriz]

That doesn't mean that the next class will use that theme.

No, but it is by far the most likely theme due to the connection to the WC3 hero unit. Again, the previous two expansion classes were tied to WC3, as were the original 9 WoW classes. There's little reason for Blizzard to deviate from a successful class system.

Its also perfectly possible that the Engineering and Alchemy professions are the representations of those hero units. So all of that you just typed means nothing. It's simply your opinion.

Except neither profession contains the abilities or attributes from either hero unit. In the case of Engineering, it doesn't even share its name. Its pretty hard to represent something when your nothing like the thing you're representing.

[Deleted]

No, but it is by far the most likely theme due to the connection to the WC3 hero unit. Again, the previous two expansion classes were tied to WC3, as were the original 9 WoW classes. There's little reason for Blizzard to deviate from a successful class system.

Except neither profession contains the abilities or attributes from either hero unit. In the case of Engineering, it doesn't even share its name. Its pretty hard to represent something when your nothing like the thing you're representing.

Pretty dubious here. There was little logic for Blizzard to deviate from faction-specific races for Pandaren, but they did because it was appropriate. Tinkers do not match the feel of the other classes in wow.

[fixx]

Again, the previous two expansion classes were tied to WC3, as were the original 9 WoW classes.

Nope, as proven to you hundred times in this very thread. You just sticking fingers in your ears going "LALALLALALA CANT HEAR YOU" doesnt change the facts.

Except neither profession contains the abilities or attributes from either hero unit. In the case of Engineering, it doesn't even share its name. Its pretty hard to represent something when your nothing like the thing you're representing.

Representing something does not mean identical copy. Or shall we add "represent" to the list of words your brain is incapable of processing, along with "similar"?

[Teriz]

Pretty dubious here. There was little logic for Blizzard to deviate from faction-specific races for Pandaren, but they did because it was appropriate.

Well, there's actually plenty of logic behind Pandaren entering WoW as a neutral race. For starters, Pandaren were always viewed as an independent race, even way back in the days of WC3;

The pandaren are an independent race and any encountered outside the Barrens are wanderers and travelers, belonging to no affiliation. Their outlook meshes well with the Alliance, and most pandaren in Kalimdor are found in the company of Alliance races. Pandaren are eccentric, however, and some feel more at home around the Horde. In any case, they rarely stay in one place for long. Pandaren friendliness and combat prowess make them good allies and honorable enemies. Pandaren are on good terms with all non-evil races.[20]

http://www.wowwiki.com/Pandaren#cite_note-A.26HC22-19

That description dates back to 2004.

So them being able to play as either faction makes quite a bit of sense.

Tinkers do not match the feel of the other classes in wow.

Which works in their favor. Blizzard wants classes to be as different from each other as possible.

[Traveler Voltin]

Nope, as proven to you hundred times in this very thread. You just sticking fingers in your ears going "LALALLALALA CANT HEAR YOU" doesnt change the facts.



Representing something does not mean identical copy. Or shall we add "represent" to the list of words your brain is incapable of processing, along with "similar"?

its teriz what did you expect? he overly loves tinkers.

[Teriz]

Nope, as proven to you hundred times in this very thread. You just sticking fingers in your ears going "LALALLALALA CANT HEAR YOU" doesnt change the facts.

Your "facts" revolve around the belief that the Monk class has no connection to the Brewmaster hero from WC3. Never mind the fact that both are rooted in Pandaren lore, both share abilities, the tanking spec is called "Brewmaster", and both are based on Chen Stormstout.

Let's also not forget this description also from 2004;

Pandaren brewmasters go on long quests in order to find new and exotic ingredients for their drinks, looking for herbs and ingredients to create new recipes. The brewmasters are affable and kind, yet deadly soldiers if crossed. They are proficient in both healing arts and their own form of martial arts. With their knowledge of alchemy, potion-making and brewing, pandaren have created superb ales and spirits that have become a welcome drink at any adventurer’s table.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Pandaren#cite_note-A.26HC22-19

In the end, all classes are pulled from WC3. The next class will also be pulled from WC3.

Representing something does not mean identical copy. Or shall we add "represent" to the list of words your brain is incapable of processing, along with "similar"?

Where did I say exact/identical copy? I'm simply saying that if those professions are supposed to represent those heroes, they should at least resemble them. The professions in WoW actually represent the WC3 item shops and items found throughout the game world.

[Talen]

That doesn't mean that the next class will use that theme.

No. It doesn't. But given the design of WoW, and the way it works, then the design space for potential future classes narrows considerably.

I wouldn't rule out a class based upon Sound - aka Bard - for example.

Overall, though, a Tech based class is perhaps the likeliest out of the remaining options.

Whether that would be integrated into the game as a Tinker or some other class is dependent on what exactly Blizzard want to do.

Its also perfectly possible that the Engineering and Alchemy professions are the representations of those hero units. So all of that you just typed means nothing. It's simply your opinion.

Its possible in the same way the Enchanting would be the representation of the Mage or First Aid the representation of the Priest or Cooking the representation of the Brewmaster.

Teriz puts an undue emphasis on patterns. In this case....he's probably going to end up right, even though every single one of his patterns is simply unimportant. Tech is simply an area of the game that allows for a unique character/class theme while still allowing Blizzard to explore and improve that aspect of the game. Its flexible enough to incorporate several class and spec possibilities and playstyles, would allow for the development of Gnome lore and has the capability to provide for fun gameplay while not having any design baggage or lore that class designers need to worry about or design around. Other class options can fill some - maybe even most - of that criteria but there isn't really another that can fill them all.

The end result could be a Tinker as Teriz suggest. But it might also be based upon an AirTrooper or an SI:7 Operative. Teriz places a lot of emphasis on coping abilities and so called gaps in the armor tables.

EJL

[fixx]

Your "facts" revolve around the belief that...

"My" fact is that all 11 current classes come from previous RPGs before Warcraft or even PCs, and it's trivial to point out multiple prior examples in literature. Blizzard is a company known for stealing only the best ideas and then further improving them.

In the end, all classes are pulled from WC3. The next class will also be pulled from WC3.

Quite obviously Blizzard devs are not stupid enough to limit themselves to WC3 as a single source... Are you?

[Thimagryn]

"My" fact is that all 11 current classes come from previous RPGs before Warcraft or even PCs, and it's trivial to point out multiple prior examples in literature. Blizzard is a company known for stealing only the best ideas and then further improving them.

Honestly, don't bother. Dead horse is dead. Let it rest.

[Teriz]

"My" fact is that all 11 current classes come from previous RPGs before Warcraft or even PCs, and it's trivial to point out multiple prior examples in literature. Blizzard is a company known for stealing only the best ideas and then further improving them.

Of course they did. However you're ignoring the game that came between the origin of those RPG archetypes and WoW. That game is WC3, which is the direct predecessor of WoW. All of those RPG archetypes are filtered through WC3 before they become classes in WoW. So while a Bard may exist as an RPG archetype somewhere, its chances of appearing in WoW as a class are slim because no such theme, unit, or hero ever existed in WC3.

Meanwhile a D&D Monk has little to nothing in common with a Monk in WoW, because the Monk in WoW was heavily influenced by the Pandaren Brewmaster hero from WC3. WC3 gives WoW classes their flavor, and makes them distinctly Warcraft instead of "generic class X".

Quite obviously Blizzard devs are not stupid enough to limit themselves to WC3 as a single source... Are you?

They've been "stupid enough" so far. Seems to be working out quite well for them, wouldn't you agree?

[Rhamses]

Wow, talk about vindication. Blizzard removed the design hole for a Ranger and a magic-archer in a single row of talents.

Oh and welcome back Teriz.

[Teriz]

Wow, talk about vindication. Blizzard removed the design hole for a Ranger and a magic-archer in a single row of talents.

Hunters cover quite a lot of ground actually. I would include Snipers and Rifle/Gunmen as well for archetypes covered by Hunters thanks to Lone Wolf and the changes to Survival.

This intensifies the possibility of a more Gnome and Goblin-centric tech class. Claw Pack and all.

Oh and welcome back Teriz.

Thanks!

[-Joker-]

Seems like it is just about time to start having this chat again in anticipation of 8.0 and a potential new class.

[McNeil]

Seriously.. good necro bud

Guess its worth linking this again.

[-Joker-]

Guess its worth linking this again.

Figured since we had a few tinker threads emerge in the past couple of weeks, it was worth bringing this one back to the front considering the several hundred pages of discussion that occurred between 5 people