I hate PVE. Why do you guys find raids/dungeons appealling?

[Djuntas]

Find yourself a guild you find worthwhile to raid with + you enjoy the rest off the game and wow is the best gaming exsperience ever.

Thats how it was for many years for me, and even with no guild it was also good.

PvE is what you make it. Strive for something etc...I always grinded a ton off things to, from recipes to mounts, reps etc.

Also you can do both things...I did. PvP aint my main thing, but I did manage 2k rated inn TBC as restrolol back then, and later on I got battlemaster...rogue alt 1850 rated for weapons....other pvp alts etc....

[Deleted]

PVE scripts can be learned once, then steamrolled over and over. To win in PVP, you need to get better, most people hate getting better.

[Deleted]

LFR is merely tourist mode - people who don't get to raid often that want to get a look at a boss. I enjoy PVE because I get to play it with friends and it's a group of us overcoming a challenge that the game developers have set in place. 1st you beat it on normal and then you go and do it in heroics, which are more challenging. I could akin almost all single player video games as PVE games as it is you vs the environment (developer).

Before someone else says "pve isn't lfr". Yes, I know, the original post covered that.

There are big problems with heroic raids carried out by competent guilds also.

The main problem is time. I am self-employed and have buckets of time and have no idea how you actually
manage to fit in a raiding schedule.

Additionally, while some guilds are friendly and supportive, many of them seem to be quite fascist with guild
leaders barking out orders.

You are still left with same basic problem as you are in LFR: it is basically pattern recognition, the downfall
of almost all games not involving a human opponent. Once you figure out the correct strategy thechallenge is
essentially over.

[Deleted]

PVE scripts can be learned once, then steamrolled over and over. To win in PVP, you need to get better, most people hate getting better.

Flawed logic.

If that was the case then there would be way more guilds 14/14HC at the moment.

[Vargur]

It's OK guy, I hate PVP to the point that I think it should be removed from WoW - and many other games.

[Deleted]

TL DNR. This game was designed for PVE. It pretty much IS the game. I don't know why you'd play this game just for PVP or pet battles or anything else really, those were always intended as an additional thing to do not to act as the actual endgame. PVE is the endgame.

When I started back in BC, it took months to actually get to the stage where you could even do pve.

The PVE component expanded dramatically since vanilla. This, I think, is partly the reason why subscribers have fallen.

I strongly believe Wow was never meant to be about one thing, pve, pvp or anything else. That can only limit
its appeal.

I do take on board what people are saying about the fun of playing with a good guild. However, I can't really imagine
even the best guilds were having much actual fun doing dragon soul after 8 months. By contrast warsong gulch is as
entertaining now as it was in vanilla.

- - - Updated - - -

im a 14/14 heroic raider and although I do enjoy doing pvp mainly on my other hunter which isnt sporting almost full bis pve gear for world pvp the majority of my time and fun comes from raiding. You really cant compare ranked pvp with lfr. You have to compare like for like eg heroic raiding with high rated pvp. In heroic raiding its not just a matter of picking the best strat that the web has and using it as if your doing early progress there are no guides and your group composition will change on a weekly basis also skill levels within the raid will also effect these choices. You have to keep trying new strats till you find the one that works with that group and keep refining till you get the perfect strat (for your gp) and the perfect pull. for garrosh heroic we were one of the first guilds that solo tanked it and it was with pally which I think we were the first. Not through choice just bacause we were a tank short but had to learn the fight without using any guilds even though all the forums told us it was not possible with that composition. Doing things dif from eveery other tactic is also fun in itself.

The as bosses become farm bosses your strats change again either from that key player missing or because you want to mix it around for fun and new challenges.

Once you have every boss on farm yes it becomes boring but very few guilds get to that level of collective skill.

In pvp if you get the flavour of the month which I know a lot of pvpers do, that is generally unfullfilling as its not cheating but its also not balanced although at least these extremes are less than they used to be. I didnt even bother pvping on my hunter when we were opp as I would not find that fun. I enjoy owning from skill alone.

Im a hunter and in pvp there are much less things you can md to your mate to kill them in breaks too which is always good entertainment.

Good post.

I agree with the critics of pvp who say it is poorly balanced. However, currently anyway, this is mainly a byproduct of pve.

The most frustrating element of pvp at the moment is the op nature of healing and hybrid classes. Healers were buffed
because Blizzard wanted more of them to fill raids up. Consequently any group with a sizeable number of healers facing
a group without them is over before its begin. In full grievous gear doing top damage it is not uncommon to be able to
kill anything in this scenario even against otherwise vastly inferior opposition.

Also, tanks in pve gear in pvp are stupidly op for the same reason.

[Lalicat]

What you described in your post is not a typical PVE experience. What you described does not sound fun even remotely.

Here's why I enjoy PVE:

1) It's a team effort, which I enjoy.
2) When strategy and execution is flawless you get a great sense of accomplishment.
3) When you down a boss for the first time you get an even greater sense of accomplishment.
4) When things don't go so well (and you're part of a great team) it's enjoyable to work together and overcome obstacles/difficulties.
5) Getting loot and feeling more "powerful" as a character is great.
6) Getting on Vent and shooting the shit while killing pretend monsters is fun in general.

Doing it week after week does get boring, but if I'm not getting loot it means others are, which makes the experience smoother and more enjoyable for the entire team.

PVE bosses feel like a logic puzzle to me (think of those little wooden, rope or metal puzzles that you complete). Once you've figured out the solution then you can work on completing that puzzle in the easiest, smoothest way possible, until you can do it without effort. /feelsgoodman

The above is pretty much the opposite of your described PVE experience. A good team/group of friends is key to PVE being enjoyable.

EDIT: Also, I'm in no way saying LFR or flex aren't real raiding... IMO the key to an enjoyable experience is a good team. You can have a good team in LFR, but you're rolling the dice to get it (instead of explicitly picking it). Same with flex if you're using oQueue. I've had tons of BAD and GREAT experiences in both LFR and flex. Just depends on who you're playing with.

[Ottius]

1) Defend Balinda.
2) Defend the bunkers
3) Attack the towers.
4) Zerg to Drek.
5) Fight on the field of strife.
6) Kite horde into the druids (try it, its enormous fun).
7) Defend Vandar.
8) Summon a giant fucking tree (admittedly very difficult these days but possible).
9) Kite the Alterac yeti into the horde, my favourite.
10) Blow people off cliffs/the bridge with knockback.
11) Take the mines.

So, you are using 6 PvE points out of overall 11 to show how great PvP is?

[judgementofantonidas]

This is going to be a controversial post, but I have a confession to make:

I hate pve.

I mean, I really hate it.

I don't understand why any one does it repeatedly.

Normal experience in an LFR raid is this:

1) Massive amounts of waiting around for tanks/healers.
2) No tactics mentioned, or if they are they are communicated far too quickly.
3) Actual fights often devolve into some kind of demented game of twister,
"stand in the red stuff", "jump in the blue stuff, "move in and out of the green
stuff.
4) Group wipes on anything other than tank-and-spank.
5) Post-menstrual healer (and I'm not talking about women here mainly) blames
poor dps. Or the tank. Or any one but the post-menstrual healer.
6) Some complete bastard wips out recount.
7) Two things then happen as a result i) tank's feelings are hurt and he quits,
more waiting ii) dps start focusing on their rotation and ignore tactics altogether
so the recount nazi doesn't pick on them, group wipes again.

OK, so as I'm sure the pve'rs will say, LFR sucks, which it does, massively. Join a
good guild.

Now, I can appreciate a good guild with a great raid leader would make for a more
positive experience. But, that's like saying working in a bank is great if your co-workers
are fun people. However, you do it, as the content becomes familiar through repetition
it becomes a chore, as does anything. There is no possibility of deviation from your
core tactics/rotation, and these things take hours.

I usually complete new raids at least once. But, I can't understand how any one can do the
same content again and again and again till autumn. Indeed, many don't, judging by
the numbers that dropped off in dragon soul. Seriously, how do you raiders manage it?

If you contrast this with PVP: every new BG is quite a different experience. There are infinite
number of strategies and permutations depending on your own abilities and those of the
teams. You can try something new every game and it feels great when you discover a new
trick that really works.
Yet, pvp is really an afterthought for Blizzard despite the fact it is competitive with PVE based
on subscriber stats.

Also, I really can't understand the lack of importance Blizzard place on questing. No one ever
mentions this, but no one ever actually started wow at endgame content. Most of us had to
level up for literally months, at least, pre-cata. We started by going out in the world, questing
and world pvp. Yet it seems that the world, beautiful as it is, is essentially now just an introduction
to pve content I don't want to do. Why isn't it an end in itself?

You may say: OK, so don't pve and shut up. Which I'd be very happy to do. But, unfortunately at
the moment you can't do world pvp without pve gear. The best pvp is actually world pvp, difficult
as it is to get a world raid going. There is no better experience for a pvper than trying to kill garrosh
in uninstanced Ogrimmar with fifty horde trying to stop us. So, you have no real choice if you want
to do that than grind through raids.

mainly because we do not have to deal with pvp weenies who feel that LF"R" or Flex have anything to do with real raiding.

[Deleted]

I don't really consider LFR to be pve though...

[Ham on Rye]

This is going to be a controversial post, but I have a confession to make:

I hate pve.

I mean, I really hate it.

I don't understand why any one does it repeatedly.

Normal experience in an LFR raid is this:

1) Massive amounts of waiting around for tanks/healers.
2) No tactics mentioned, or if they are they are communicated far too quickly.
3) Actual fights often devolve into some kind of demented game of twister,
"stand in the red stuff", "jump in the blue stuff, "move in and out of the green
stuff.
4) Group wipes on anything other than tank-and-spank.
5) Post-menstrual healer (and I'm not talking about women here mainly) blames
poor dps. Or the tank. Or any one but the post-menstrual healer.
6) Some complete bastard wips out recount.
7) Two things then happen as a result i) tank's feelings are hurt and he quits,
more waiting ii) dps start focusing on their rotation and ignore tactics altogether
so the recount nazi doesn't pick on them, group wipes again.

OK, so as I'm sure the pve'rs will say, LFR sucks, which it does, massively. Join a
good guild.

LFR is not and never has been PvE. In fact, I'd argue it's Willpower PvP.

[Deleted]

PVE scripts can be learned once, then steamrolled over and over. To win in PVP, you need to get better, most people hate getting better.

This thread isnt about what takes most brain or what is hardest. PvE is about teamwork and cooperation, its about having FUN in a group. WoW is a PvE game. People who play wow solely for PvP i have absolutely no idea what they are doing. There are 2000 better pvp games out there but not 1 single better PvE endgame game.

People dont mind getting better. People just want to have fun while doing it(if playing a game). WoW pvp isnt fun. Its just frustrating and infuriating.

[Steampunk]

If you hate PvE, why aren't you playing shooters?

There's no Roleplaying in PvP combat.

[Deleted]

Before someone else says "pve isn't lfr". Yes, I know, the original post covered that.

There are big problems with heroic raids carried out by competent guilds also.

The main problem is time. I am self-employed and have buckets of time and have no idea how you actually
manage to fit in a raiding schedule.

Additionally, while some guilds are friendly and supportive, many of them seem to be quite fascist with guild
leaders barking out orders.

You are still left with same basic problem as you are in LFR: it is basically pattern recognition, the downfall
of almost all games not involving a human opponent. Once you figure out the correct strategy thechallenge is
essentially over.

And once you do this, for most guilds, there is a new tier out. You dont seem to get the concept of this.

Raiding is about making a group dynamic working and everything running smooth, at the same time as people have individual tasks like not standing in fire and performing rotations. If thats not interesting to you then who the hell cares? do something else?

You cant really say "You are still left with same basic problem as you are in LFR: it is basically pattern recognition, the downfall
of almost all games not involving a human opponent" of a game that has survived for 10 years. It makes you sound stupid

[zephid]

Come back and comment on PvE when you have actually experienced HC raids.

[phyx]

I'm not taking offense and I hope none is given. I'm just genuinely curious about what you guys get out of pve. I presume I'm missing something.

With regard to pvp: I don't see the level of repitition as comparable. You have the germ of a good point in that most pvpers actually do the same crap every bg. But, for the creative, you don't have to.

Let's take AV as an example, look at the number of potential strategies you can employ:

1) Defend Balinda.
2) Defend the bunkers
3) Attack the towers.
4) Zerg to Drek.
5) Fight on the field of strife.
6) Kite horde into the druids (try it, its enormous fun).
7) Defend Vandar.
8) Summon a giant fucking tree (admittedly very difficult these days but possible).
9) Kite the Alterac yeti into the horde, my favourite.
10) Blow people off cliffs/the bridge with knockback.
11) Take the mines.

etc etc....this is just off the top of my head.

Now, in pve, I can't actually go anywhere the raid isn't without dieing instantly.

There's a pretty much optimal rotation and set of tactics in pve. Any deviation from that
rotation is just going to lower your dps. When you get new content and new abilities, sure
that changes, but we have to wait until autumn for that.

Most BGs end up using the exact same tactic anyway. In theory there are many possible tactics but they are inefficient or just completely wrong. As in PvE, technically you don't have to use the same tactic as everyone or use the same tactic every single week but that's the most efficient way of doing things.

[Deleted]

to op:

i HATE pvp, why kill other guy's over and over and over again? (some is over 100k kills, some have WAAAAAAAAAAAY more)

for me, i love pve becouse i have fun there, giggle with the people i play with and so on

[Wildtree]

This is going to be a controversial post, but I have a confession to make:

I hate pve.

I mean, I really hate it.

I don't understand why any one does it repeatedly.

That's your opinion and preference, and that's perfectly fine.
You also don't have to understand what others like or dislike..

Normal experience in an LFR raid is this:

1) Massive amounts of waiting around for tanks/healers.
2) No tactics mentioned, or if they are they are communicated far too quickly.
3) Actual fights often devolve into some kind of demented game of twister,
"stand in the red stuff", "jump in the blue stuff, "move in and out of the green
stuff.
4) Group wipes on anything other than tank-and-spank.
5) Post-menstrual healer (and I'm not talking about women here mainly) blames
poor dps. Or the tank. Or any one but the post-menstrual healer.
6) Some complete bastard wips out recount.
7) Two things then happen as a result i) tank's feelings are hurt and he quits,
more waiting ii) dps start focusing on their rotation and ignore tactics altogether
so the recount nazi doesn't pick on them, group wipes again.

Seen all that happen, and yet still not at unbearable mass amounts.
Plus, when you pve frequently, over time you know exactly what days and times are better for a smooth sailing..

Now, I can appreciate a good guild with a great raid leader would make for a more
positive experience. But, that's like saying working in a bank is great if your co-workers
are fun people. However, you do it, as the content becomes familiar through repetition
it becomes a chore, as does anything. There is no possibility of deviation from your
core tactics/rotation, and these things take hours.

If you contrast this with PVP: every new BG is quite a different experience. There are infinite
number of strategies and permutations depending on your own abilities and those of the
teams. You can try something new every game and it feels great when you discover a new
trick that really works.

That's totally untrue for PVP...
Random BGs are the same cluster fuck as LFD/LFR.
While in the PVE part, the content gets eventually done, in Random BG's loss after loss happens, due to the douche bag attitudes.
Compared to random BG groups, the behavior of PVE groups can be classified as choir boys.
Insults and finger pointing run rampant in random BGs.
To counter that, you're better off doing RBGs.. In those however you find yourself suddenly in a whole different systematic. RBG's are extremely similar to raids.
There are rather proven strategies to be used for a successful completion. There suddenly teamwork trumps the individual approach.
And..... Last but not least, all BGs are just as repetitive as PVE dungeons/raids.
BG's comparison to raids I find problematic. As you pointed out, they take hours. BG's take a lot less. They take about as long as an average 5 man dungeon today, often less than that. Which increases the repetition.
While one player raids for 3 hours, another player can easily complete 12 - 20 random BGs in that time, depending on the rng what BGs opened up..
Now for the variety. Let's say I play AB.... I am at the Blacksmith defending.... There comes a DK..... Do you know how many times a DK (insert random class here) came up to the flag over years of playing? Hundreds of times probably. At some point there is nothing at all special anymore. At some point you know it all, you've seen it all. And that DK is just another repetition.

Yet, pvp is really an afterthought for Blizzard despite the fact it is competitive with PVE based
on subscriber stats.

No it really isn't. They take care of PVP just as much.

Also, I really can't understand the lack of importance Blizzard place on questing. No one ever
mentions this, but no one ever actually started wow at endgame content.

With you on that aspect..

Most of us had to level up for literally months, at least, pre-cata.

That's unfortunately not true..
The "leveling for month" is only valid for Vanilla, and combined with TBC it is extended for a bit...
The speedway approach of leveling started with WotLK. Ever since it became ever more trivial, which has to do with the age of the game and the amount of new content..
If they would have never changed a thing, and kept everything at the classic WoW pace, new players that join the game today would be stuck in the leveling process for about a half year.

We started by going out in the world, questing
and world pvp. Yet it seems that the world, beautiful as it is, is essentially now just an introduction
to pve content I don't want to do. Why isn't it an end in itself?

The World outside has always been PVE driven. All PVP occurrences have been entirely triggered by the players, and not the content.
Exceptions are zones that were later introduced to deliberately get there for a mix of PVP/PVE..
Quel Danas, Wintergrasp, Tol Barad, Isle of Thunder, and with limitations, Isle of Time.
All those places had PVP and PVE content... In all those places PVP happens if the players wish to do so.
I've been questing in all those places on PVP realms unharmed, and I've seen PVP spark up on PVE realms there as well.
Again. it's the players not the content alone that dictates whether there's pvp going on or not.

You may say: OK, so don't pve and shut up. Which I'd be very happy to do. But, unfortunately at
the moment you can't do world pvp without pve gear.

Yes you can.. The last tier of PVP gear has an item level of 550.
That is well above what the average PVE player sports. And since that tier was released your 550 pvp gear is once again very competitive.

[striderZA]

You can't be serious in judging WoW's PvE experience based on LFR, that is pure insanity and I'm sure that the rest of the replies to this topic mentions this.

PvE remains engaging for me because there are always ways in which you can maximize your class, try different things on a fight, push yourself for higher numbers, and that's outside of progression.

[Uvwaex]

To top the DPS meters and have the highest ilvl purples, of course.