Mafia 39: Let Chaos Rule

[Lora]

If you don't like the OMGUS then take the time to actually come up with a solid bloody reason to vote on someone, I don't know if any of you have ever taken the time to notice but the only time I OMGUS is when people vote on me with no bloody reason to back it up. It's pissing me off that your entire premise is to laugh at my idiotic defense of "Ha ha, you're stupid" when the amount of effort that you put into your reasoning for the vote in the first place is just as lax.

So roll your eyes all you want, you're getting the same amount of effort in a response that you gave in the first place.

TLDR: Either shut the hell up, Or actually try.

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I think I can forgive you this once, But don't do it again!

its funny because you do the same thing every time someone votes for you, claim that they dont have a reason or one that doesn't suit your standards and then you get pissy at them. methinks you be scumming it up or just dont know how to not overreact.

[Virothe]

TLDR: Our little duckling is pissy because someone's suspicious of him. It's almost like he doesn't want us to question his actions this game. :<

:Sigh: I was going to ignore you but since you insist on misconstruing crap and spreading false hoods let me explain this.

If you find me suspicious for a real reason, if you want to right up a theory or an idea or you caught a slip or anything like that. I will address it and I will address it properly with an actual defense that isn't OMGUS.

But if you insist on pushing for my lynch based on "Gut feelings" and little else, I'm not going to dignify that with any amount of effort because it doesn't deserve it. Simply put the effort you put into your offense is going to be met by equal or greater effort in my defense. But if you're of the mindset to push me with out effort or cause I'm not going to even attempt to dignify your lackadaisical defense with a real amount of effort.

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its funny because you do the same thing every time someone votes for you, claim that they dont have a reason or one that doesn't suit your standards and then you get pissy at them. methinks you be scumming it up or just dont know how to not overreact.

Actually if you look at the majority of times people vote for me it's over small stuff that doesn't deserve a full on vote, A FoS or a "I'm suspicious of you post" would suffice. What you don't seem to understand about this game is that votes are to be the last method used to assert suspicion not the first, By outright voting on others you're literally saying "There is nothing left to discuss this person deserves to be lynched"

This is the main reason the majority of older players keep claiming this game is getting lazy, because all anyone ever wants to do is vote without regard to actual evidence or reasoning. It's the main reason we keep making TPR's flip early as well, because we pile vote after vote after vote on them until they feel pressured into outing themselves and it's people who play like you that are the cause.

We always buffer out days and rarely ever close them early and for what? We don't really do anything during that time, no one's taking the effort to write up or cast suspicion on others because it's all purely through voting and little else. You don't need very much evidence to actually push a vote in this game anymore and that's not the way it should be done. Hell look at our lynches this game, We keep hitting the same cult over and over again because we keep just voting without really discussing anything or trying to point out the flaws in what's going on.

So no, It's not the fact that peoplefind me suspicious that irks me. It's the fact that with no evidence to actually back up statements people jump right to a voting with little or no thought behind it.

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Bleh I thought pistol posted that last one, But the point I'm trying to make isn't any less true so w/e.

[Deleted]

@Virothe
Thing is, I did try to articulate a better reasoning. I know you kinda brushed it off as me saying "I think Virothe is voting strangely because gut", but that wasn't actually what I was going for. I did actually argue why I felt that your voting pattern and behaviour was off. For once, my brain just agreed with my gut, which made you my #1 target for a lynch.

I'm sorry if you don't think my reasonings are good enough. I'm sorry if you feel that my priorities are off, that I'm stupid and that I'm bad at the game. I can't really help you with that. I kinda don't want to, either. Cause I see you as scum, so to me, every little jab you've made at me has been you attempting to deflect. If that's not the case, and you actually are town, then... I mean, that's cool. You do you, boo. But if you actually want to discuss someones' suspicions of you, try going for the mature response first. Maybe, just maybe, people wont roll their eyes at you.

[Virothe]

@Pistol,
And I get that I do. But your initial post was "Gut feeling because he is voting oddly" And little else, Which I completely agree with you is worth mentioning or hell if you are that concerned about it it's even worth an FoS

But to outright vote on me for it is just wrong in my eyes and that's what annoys me. It's an easy enough issue to explain, This is one of the few games where the deadlines have been either really oddly timed or really well timed for me. I generally am not the head of BW's unless I feel they are good and solid reasoned ones, But this game I've felt I either wouldn't be around for day close (Mid wagon votes) or I've been around to procrastinate (since most day ends are coming during the morning when I have time at work)

Otherwise I don't really know what you're talking about since voting mid wagon is usually the norm for me.

[Omertocracy]

Also, since I apparently forgot to mention it yet again,

With 20 alive, it takes 11 to lynch.

[Virothe]

Dang it Pistol we killed the thread >.< Let's start a dance party!

Anywho

Unvote
(Pistol)

My vote was just me griping not a serious vote.

[KurenaiXIII]

I think a better question is, why kill Largehorn?

TD's obvious--outed TPR. Sure, and the cult doesn't want that around. But why Largehorn? What was he posting to make cult want to kill him? Not sure I like the 'if there's a majority vote, cult can kill or recruit' idea much. I think it happens to be coincidental in TD's case.

Of course, I might be wrong, but that's a weird condition to have on a NK. And if the cults are competing, how and or why would they communicate to choose who to kill? I can't see *that* happening.

[Lora]

Actually if you look at the majority of times people vote for me it's over small stuff that doesn't deserve a full on vote, A FoS or a "I'm suspicious of you post" would suffice. What you don't seem to understand about this game is that votes are to be the last method used to assert suspicion not the first, By outright voting on others you're literally saying "There is nothing left to discuss this person deserves to be lynched"

This is the main reason the majority of older players keep claiming this game is getting lazy, because all anyone ever wants to do is vote without regard to actual evidence or reasoning. It's the main reason we keep making TPR's flip early as well, because we pile vote after vote after vote on them until they feel pressured into outing themselves and it's people who play like you that are the cause.

We always buffer out days and rarely ever close them early and for what? We don't really do anything during that time, no one's taking the effort to write up or cast suspicion on others because it's all purely through voting and little else. You don't need very much evidence to actually push a vote in this game anymore and that's not the way it should be done. Hell look at our lynches this game, We keep hitting the same cult over and over again because we keep just voting without really discussing anything or trying to point out the flaws in what's going on.

So no, It's not the fact that peoplefind me suspicious that irks me. It's the fact that with no evidence to actually back up statements people jump right to a voting with little or no thought behind it.

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Bleh I thought pistol posted that last one, But the point I'm trying to make isn't any less true so w/e.

The only evidence we are going to get is if a tpr claims and hands us shit, or if scum, for whatever stupid reason, claim they are scum. Other than that, there is really not shit to base things off of. Just feelings and hunches.

[Greeney]

Yes they were.

Interesting.

[Bombercloner]

Since there haven't been very many NK's I think its safe to assume that the cults have the ability to choose to kill or choose to recruit (or a limited number of kills or something along those lines). The cults found TD to be a scary individual for obvious reasons. They mmust have also assumed that LH was a TPR (a non doc TPR I should add as Doc is not scary vs cult whatsoever). I think that they likely earned some suspicion that LH was a cop. I'm going to look back at some of the voting history and post some thoughts on who might be grouping. I strongly believe that the Silkku Lynch was led by elvinia's cult.

[Danner]

Kurenai:

I don't think it is implausible that the game works like this:
- If minority lynch, cult(s) can recruit.
- If majority lynch, cult(s) can kill.

That would be the limiting factor to their inevitable doom growth, and it would be what gives us a fighting chance. It would also explain why they started out with 2(or more) players. Of course, if that is the case, then we need to make sure that all days forthcoming are majority lynches; it's far better that the cults get to kill than that they get to recruit. If they kill, they will hit eachother, and we stand a chance of victory. Even if they don't, at least we won't be culted. I do see this as our chance.

The only other option I see is to carry on as we do right now, and we're projected to lose in 3 or so days (depending on how much Team Dora the Explorer has recruited). If one of the cults do get vote majority, then we lose. Easy as that.

I don't think any game setup would actively punish the town by giving a cult both of these abilities. That would be rather silly actually.I cannot of course rule out the possibility that the majority lynch thing is a coincidence. Still... would it really hurt to pull of a majority lynch? If we do unlock a cult kill then we should get one less recruitment to deal with. And chances are that will be a cultist or two biting the bullet. I'm fairly certain both cult teams have some idea who is on the other team by now, and both want to cut down on the other team?

I say it's worth the trial and error. Of course, trial and error at day 7 is a pretty bleak outlook for victory. But I think it's the best shot we got right now. Opinions wanted!
Virothe and Pistol have voiced theirs!

--

But yeah. Why Largehorn? The only thing I had on him was that I called him out for being quiet. Then he died as a town. I don't really get his death either. I assume one of the cults decided he was of the other cult?

I'm still not quite getting why there was only one kill though. That seriously suggests there is only one cult. But... that color thing!

[Virothe]

The only evidence we are going to get is if a tpr claims and hands us shit, or if scum, for whatever stupid reason, claim they are scum. Other than that, there is really not shit to base things off of. Just feelings and hunches.

It's clear from this alone that you really don't have any idea how to play this game. We should under no circumstances be dependent on TPR claims in order to get a lynch, that's the laziest way to go about it. The entire point of this game is to be smart enough to find things or create posts that are smart enough and convincing enough to be able to get others to follow your way. No to sit with your thumb up your ass till a TPR comes out and coddles you.

[KurenaiXIII]

@Danner

It's really the one-kill thing which is tripping me up over this. I guess it could be more complex and there might be an additional condition to the kill earning, that is, something like 'the cult not in the lead can direct the kill' (because letting the cult -in- the lead also kill seems OP to me). But that's a lot of conditions to fulfill.

Still, you might be right. If we do push a majority lynch today and there's another kill, I'll be convinced.

[Danner]

And I seriously agree with Virothe in post 2112. Vanilla townie is the BEST role, because you get to play the actual game. You get to play the detective, attack people, question the culprits, find contradictions, and figure out who is the scum. And very very likely die in the process. Go nuts; if you don't put up some real opinions you are doing it wrong!

As a TPR you have to hold back a lot, you don't want to attract too much attention. By all means, be active, but you cannot take too many risks, and you certainly don't want to end up in the "let's lynch Danner, he was the main pusher for the mislynch last day" situation. As a VT you can and should take risks. If you don't know who is scummy, then challenge random people on some game-related topic (like: is Virothe scummy?) until you find that you agree with them or disagree with them. Raise a ruckus. Repeat until you have a decent view on who is scum. That's essentially how to play the game. A cop will usually not find more than 2 scum anyway; if you don't have any idea who is buddies with whom by the time a cop claims, then you certainly won't find any ideas to that after.

I miss being a VT... why do I never draw that role anymore?

[KurenaiXIII]

If majority lynches result in kills, then our TPRs definitely need to not claim, because then they become immediate kill targets.

Actually, with Danner already claimed, I guess the cults will have to see if they can kill him... if we get a majority lynch tonight and that is the trigger on their kill.

[Danner]

Kurenai:

I would like to know why there is only one kill every time as well!

Maybe they only get a kill if it wasn't one of theirs up for lynch? Or maybe if it's only one of theirs up for lynch?
I can only speculate.

[Virothe]

@ Danner

I loved it for a long time too, but the issue is we keep getting plagued by players (both new and old) thinking the opposite, They think VT is boring and they put their self preservation above that of town. Then they expect TPR's to come out of the wood works and cut their workload down and put themselves at risk and then cry in late game when it's harder and harder for them to maintain that easy lynch style. It's also a big reason why we keep having day 4+ Lurker lynches, because we don't have TPR's coming out then and the VT's don't want to put their necks on the line by attempting to push a more legitimate BW.

Don't get me wrong here, there is a time and a place for lurker lynching. But when you have someone who is highly suspected scum it's completely idiotic to just follow a lurker wagon because it's an easier choice.

(Also, as a precaution I'm just adding at the end that I'm not advocating VT's coming out or doing anything this game. I'm just pointing out in general)

[Lora]

It's clear from this alone that you really don't have any idea how to play this game. We should under no circumstances be dependent on TPR claims in order to get a lynch, that's the laziest way to go about it. The entire point of this game is to be smart enough to find things or create posts that are smart enough and convincing enough to be able to get others to follow your way. No to sit with your thumb up your ass till a TPR comes out and coddles you.

It is the only way to be 100% certain. Anything else is just theory. Most votes have been based off of people disliking other people or bringing up reasoning based on other games which have nothing to do with the current game. Doesn't change anything I said. No need for the hostility bro.

[Bombercloner]

Alright so as promised I looked back at some of the voting records. I know that robo said that looking at them is virtually meaningless, but I would disagree with that about 50%. At this point there have been several people that are on Elvinia's cult that have been around a good long while. I think the people on Elvinia's team want to demolish Lysah's team while also distancing themselves from each other. So what I did was looked at the votes for people that had votes on the person that was lynched.

Day 6 Silkku Train: Ana, Celtic, Tuxedo, Uggor, Xanjori, Waker
Day 6 Tuxedo Train: Robo, Greeney, keleb
Day 6 Celtic Train: Catta, Danner

Day 5 Worg train:Tuxedo, Listo, Kurenai, keleb, lora, cruelle, ana, catta
Day 5 Ana train: Uggor, Decagon, Greeney
The people that showed up once (bolded) in the lynch target column for day 5 and day 6 and/or the side train column for day 5 and day 6 I think are suspects for Elvinia cult. Basically if their name is in a row that started with a day 5 and a day 6 then I am suspicious of them.

The list consists of the following individuals:
Anasko
Catta
Uggor
Tuxedo
Keleb
Greeney
I think looking any further than two days back in the voting records is extremely silly because a lot of several people have had their opinions change since day 4 (because of recruitments.)

Note: this list is an attempt at finding Elvinia's friends. People that pushed lynches onto Lysah's friend and/or people that distanced themselves from people killing Lysah's friends two days in a row. Also, I think that Greeney is actually a good bet for a town player. But I had to add him to the list for consistency. I think Greeney falls under different circumstances than the rest of us.

Ugh being town this game suxxxx #recruitbomberclonersohecangetdafreewin

I read on mafia scum that if you try to find something thats not there you typically find it anyways, so yeah. just my attempt at contributing, carry on without reading which prolly 15~ of you guys will do anyways.

[Xanjori]

Vote Cattaclysmic

Avoided both Elvinia trains completely and was then hugely vocal about getting Lysah lynched. Strong chance of being starting member on Elvinias team.