Rogue 6.0 patch notes

[SynergyDarkstar]

In what way are Rogues bad for leveling? During MoP, my Rogue was my easiest toon to level.

Completely wrong: once you get beyond heirloom-one-shot-everything-land, energy starvation and mindlessly slow playstyle is not fun at all. An anecdote: in my small 10m guild, out of the five or so people who started leveling a rogue (excluding me), one has got theirs to lv90. Biggest complaints: takes forever to get a dungeon queue, and then you barely get any attacks off, CPs staying on dead mobs suck (compared to every other class).

For we who main rogues, we've gotten used to many of these complaints, either explaining them away with "oh, well rogues just scale worse, so once you get some gear you'll be OK" and "you just have to get used to CPs," but coming from another class that's been modernized, it feels terrible.

Also hunters, who literally just do the same animations for 90% of a fight. There isn't even an animation difference between a "special" shot and an auto shot.

Just FYI, this is like saying that casters use the same casting animation, so all their spells are identical. The projectiles that are fired from hunter abilities are extremely varied: look at the difference between Glaive Toss, Cobra Shot, Arcane Shot, Kill Shot and Black Arrow.

[Andrraste]

Completely wrong: once you get beyond heirloom-one-shot-everything-land, energy starvation and mindlessly slow playstyle is not fun at all. An anecdote: in my small 10m guild, out of the five or so people who started leveling a rogue (excluding me), one has got theirs to lv90. Biggest complaints: takes forever to get a dungeon queue, and then you barely get any attacks off, CPs staying on dead mobs suck (compared to every other class).

Quit leveling as Combat?

I leveled my second rogue from 1-80 as sub and killed everything in a Cheap Shot. From 80-90 I went Mut. With Deadly Momentum and Venomous Wounds filling my energy bar upon enemy death there was like zero downtime.

[Vigilate]

Most classes use filler spells, maintain DoT's or debuff and use CD's. In theory you can find resemblemce in all specs and classes, however it is a difference in animations, colours etc.

Rogues have backstab, mutilate and sinister strike as differences, they all use rupture, SnD and evicerate(the difference between evicerate and envenom are almost non existant). Combat is a bit different in the way that they always push to get cooldowns back faster.

Finishers may currently be shared, but again, the role they perform is varied for each spec.
Mutilate- Buffs/Debuffs that must be monitored to maximize damage
Combat- Abilities that act as a means to get to your real damage faster (KsP and AR/SB)
Subtlety- Raw damage that you need to unload optimally during set periods if possible.

Also, the playstyle and abilities don't always feel like they belong to their specs. Take killing spree; jumping through the shadows? Sounds more like something that belongs to subtlety if you ask me. Find weakness in your enemies armor? Sounds like something a combat-specialist would be good at.

How is Killing Spree not in the theme of Combat? You're using both weapons at once to perform a flurry of powerful attacks over a short period. You're picking at the wording vs looking at what it actually does.

A frost mage has frostbolt, ice lance, blizzard. A fire mage has fireball, pyroblast and flamestrike. They seem similar in the effect they have, however the icons change, the animations change. You feel like a frost mage. I never feel like an assassin. I never feel like I am extremely skilled in combat. I never feel like I am the master of shadows.

You don't feel like you're poisoning your enemies with super strong concoctions as Assassination?
You don't feel like slashing your enemies to bits as Combat?
You don't feel like you're using Stealth and Subterfuge to exploit your enemies' weaknesses as Subtlety?

Honestly, the only way you could make the specs more "unique" would be either add impractical effects that make no sense as a Rogue or scrap the Rogue as a pure DPS and make Assassination and Combat Ranged and Tank specs respectively.

I've had my Rogue since Classic and I still love it. Do I wish our talents were a tad better? Yeah, but at the same time, I'm thankful that our toolkit doesn't require us depending talents to fix core class issues.

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Completely wrong: once you get beyond heirloom-one-shot-everything-land, energy starvation and mindlessly slow playstyle is not fun at all. An anecdote: in my small 10m guild, out of the five or so people who started leveling a rogue (excluding me), one has got theirs to lv90. Biggest complaints: takes forever to get a dungeon queue, and then you barely get any attacks off, CPs staying on dead mobs suck (compared to every other class).

For we who main rogues, we've gotten used to many of these complaints, either explaining them away with "oh, well rogues just scale worse, so once you get some gear you'll be OK" and "you just have to get used to CPs," but coming from another class that's been modernized, it feels terrible.

As Andrraste said, don't level as Combat. It's the same reason most people don't level as Fire, Arcane, or Fury. Some specs are just bad for leveling.

And complaining about Dungeon queues? Every single person who queues as dps get long wait times. Then complaining about the damage distribution for AoE in these 5 man? It's a problem for all DPS. Any tank who has half a brain will be dealing 30-50% of all the damage in the group, more so on AoE packs, because tanks are the only ones that are given a near complete AoE package early on in comparison to everyone else.

Just FYI, this is like saying that casters use the same casting animation, so all their spells are identical. The projectiles that are fired from hunter abilities are extremely varied: look at the difference between Glaive Toss, Cobra Shot, Arcane Shot, Kill Shot and Black Arrow.

I have a 585 Hunter alt that I do a 13/14 HC GDKP raid on ever week.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ernal/advanced

Cobra Shot, Arcane Shot, Kill Shot, and Black Arrow are barely noticeable in terms of animation or spell effect. There's more flavor in Envenom, alone, for Pete's sakes.

[Sativ]

Cobra Shot, Arcane Shot, Kill Shot, and Black Arrow are barely noticeable in terms of animation or spell effect. There's more flavor in Envenom, alone, for Pete's sakes.

Sound effects will do that. RIP Redirect.

[Noorac]

Finishers may currently be shared, but again, the role they perform is varied for each spec.
Mutilate- Buffs/Debuffs that must be monitored to maximize damage
Combat- Abilities that act as a means to get to your real damage faster (KsP and AR/SB)
Subtlety- Raw damage that you need to unload optimally during set periods if possible.

How is Killing Spree not in the theme of Combat? You're using both weapons at once to perform a flurry of powerful attacks over a short period. You're picking at the wording vs looking at what it actually does.

You don't feel like you're poisoning your enemies with super strong concoctions as Assassination?
You don't feel like slashing your enemies to bits as Combat?
You don't feel like you're using Stealth and Subterfuge to exploit your enemies' weaknesses as Subtlety?

I'm not saying that there is no difference in the theorycrafting, just how it feels when you play it. Maybe I'm picking on the earlier versions of killing spree, when it was first introduced, and you couldn't chose to only do it on one target. You still jump in the shadows though.

No I don't feel like I'm poisoning my enemies with super strong concoctions as assassination, well to some degree I do, but I do the exact same thing in my other specs, no real difference in the poisons themselves.
No I don't feel like slashing my enemies to bits as combat. I hit slower than I do as subtlety, also mutilate feels like it slashes heavier than sinister.
No I don't feel like I'm using stealth and subterfuge to exploit my enemies' weaknesses as subtlety. No more in subtlety than I do in any other spec. With the exception of the ability to get my SnD rolling before I come out of stealth(wich we are going to lose) and the fact that I need to run behind a pillar and hide every 10 seconds, what is really so stealthy about subtlety?

[Feali]

With the exception of the ability to get my SnD rolling before I come out of stealth(wich we are going to lose) and the fact that I need to run behind a pillar and hide every 10 seconds, what is really so stealthy about subtlety?

We're not going to lose it (if you're talking about Premed).

[Noorac]

Premed yes? It will change to just add 2 additional CP when you ambush/cheapshot/garrote no? Or have I missed something? If it is correct we lose the ability to get SnD going before we open.

[Vigilate]

I'm not saying that there is no difference in the theorycrafting, just how it feels when you play it. Maybe I'm picking on the earlier versions of killing spree, when it was first introduced, and you couldn't chose to only do it on one target. You still jump in the shadows though.

No I don't feel like I'm poisoning my enemies with super strong concoctions as assassination, well to some degree I do, but I do the exact same thing in my other specs, no real difference in the poisons themselves.
No I don't feel like slashing my enemies to bits as combat. I hit slower than I do as subtlety, also mutilate feels like it slashes heavier than sinister.
No I don't feel like I'm using stealth and subterfuge to exploit my enemies' weaknesses as subtlety. No more in subtlety than I do in any other spec. With the exception of the ability to get my SnD rolling before I come out of stealth(wich we are going to lose) and the fact that I need to run behind a pillar and hide every 10 seconds, what is really so stealthy about subtlety?

What you're complaining about is similar to a Warlock complaining that all the Warlock specs are the same because they all involve wielding Chaos magic. Classes of different specs share a good number of spell similarities, if not the exact same spell. It's the way the game works. Asking Blizzard to change the class merely for the sake of change (as many in this thread are doing) has a chance of getting you redesign, similar in par to MoP Warlocks. However, it's much more likely that dramatic class overhauls ends up leading to things like Cataclysm Ret Paladins, early Cataclysm Hunters, and this recent gem: http://www.heroicstrike.org/

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Premed yes? It will change to just add 2 additional CP when you ambush/cheapshot/garrote no? Or have I missed something? If it is correct we lose the ability to get SnD going before we open.

It was confirmed via Celestalon tweets that Premed will be changed back to the live version. Yes, they actually do listen to constructive player feedback.

[Brianjosel]

Quit leveling as Combat?

I leveled my second rogue from 1-80 as sub and killed everything in a Cheap Shot. From 80-90 I went Mut. With Deadly Momentum and Venomous Wounds filling my energy bar upon enemy death there was like zero downtime.

Rogues suck ass in 5 man's during leveling. I know to the experienced player only end game matters, but no where on the character select screen does it say you will be dragged along as dead weight all the way to 90 by the freakishly OP tank, with no AoE to mention besides a hyper expensive Sinister Strike Blade Flurry. To a new player this is especially a huge turn off. They have no end game it.

[Noorac]

It was confirmed via Celestalon tweets that Premed will be changed back to the live version. Yes, they actually do listen to constructive player feedback.

I don't think I have ever said that they don't.

I am not asking for change for the sake of change, I just want the specs to feel different, because I don't get that feeling. The naming and what the abilities actually do matter to me. Other classes can change to heal, or to tank, but we don't have that option. I still think it is fair to designate some time to let specs revolve more around what they are described as. Maybe it is similar to warlocks, but so what? I've never said that this problem is one that only applies to rogues. Too many people forget the rpg-element in mmorpgs. Why not just make rogues 1 spec and 1 spec only? Because they want to "rp" as an assassin, a master of combat or someone who sneaks in the shadows. If the rp element isn't in there, then just make 1 spec. If the rp element is in there, then you need to give it some attention.

(Just to clarify, I'm not an RP'er, but I still enjoy poisoning my enemies more so than slashing with big weapons)

[Andrraste]

Rogues suck ass in 5 man's during leveling. I know to the experienced player only end game matters, but no where on the character select screen does it say you will be dragged along as dead weight all the way to 90 by the freakishly OP tank, with no AoE to mention besides a hyper expensive Sinister Strike Blade Flurry. To a new player this is especially a huge turn off. They have no end game it.

Are we talking actual new to the game players, or just new to the class? If just new to the class I think it is safe to assume they know DPS are OutDPSed by tanks in AoE. If they are new to the game, do they even know about DPS meters so that they actually know they're being carried? We're also leaving out some of the other most important parts of the leveling experience. Rogues are arguably the best class by doing random leveling BGs. We also have the advantage of stealthing past enemies why don't want to kill while leveling. That alone makes me slow about leveling my alts.

[Brianjosel]

I was here when BC started with my rogue, when heroic instances were introduced with 360° cleaves that were one shoting everything at melee range that was not a tank. I was here when they had to buff melee by nerfing glancing blows. I was here when they had to hot fix all our stuff because we were so far behind all other classes that we were laughable while crafted cloth sets were so good and only replaced by T6...

I was here again at Naxxramas 80 when they had to buff SnD to 40% because we were again far behind everything else, I was also here when we were using special addons in Ice Crown to switch our off hand with Instant Poison instead of Deadly poison every 5 seconds to get on top of the meters and when GC said that they will give this to us for free (Patch 3.3.0) because he thought it was not bringing much to our DPS and he did not want addons to be used this way... 2 weeks later we were hot fixed down because this guy did not know anything about rogue and we were 20% above arcane mages... How far above everything else are Affliction demos today, without any hot fix ?

I stopped playing at the beginning of Cata because I had enough...

Had enough of being exceptional dps in raids, and way more often than not having a spot in pvp?

In Vanilla geared warriors, rogues, and mages were all major damage. Rogues excelled at pvp (although on the large scale maybe not so much. ) In TBC, they were always excellent damage, and by the end of the xpac Warglaive rogues were one of the few classes that could hope to keep up with dumb ass hunter and warlock damage. They were active in pvp all xpac with HARP and later Shadowstep builds. In Wrath Naxx had ridiculous HAT rogues. Ulduar had FoK Combat being mandatory for Yogg; and strong in the other fights. ICC had both Mutilate and ARP Combat, and outside of broken Fire mages and Shadowmourne warriors, were top damage. Outside of the first season being broken by DKs, mut/prep was a strong melee contender; and even in the melee drought last season of Wrath, you could still find Shadowdance rogues at the top end of arena. Cata needs no explanation. Rogues had a mild start that quickly turned around.

This is what I mean. Rogues have been good like 90% of the time, but some players will wax on about how they manage to endure the torture. Why would Blizzard take this seriously?

[Deleted]

Rogues suck ass in 5 man's during leveling. I know to the experienced player only end game matters, but no where on the character select screen does it say you will be dragged along as dead weight all the way to 90 by the freakishly OP tank, with no AoE to mention besides a hyper expensive Sinister Strike Blade Flurry. To a new player this is especially a huge turn off. They have no end game it.

The only people who can keep up with a tank these days are people with heirlooms, atleast while leveling that is.

And if the tank has heirlooms? Be happy if you do 50% of his/her dps, because that is how blizzard set up the scaling, and it most likely wont change.


The only people I see coming even close to my dps when Im lvling a tank are survival hunters, sub rogues and elemental shamans, and the occasional frost mage with half a brain that is.

Destruction Warlock, Sub Rogue, Prot Warrior, Prot/holy paladin, resto druid, frost mage, survival hunter, blood DK, disc priest, elemental shaman, windwalker/brewmaster monk...

There is a reason why every single person with looms and half a brain levels using these specs. Because they are vastly superior while lvling to 85, at 85 any dps spec becomes the better choice because scaling finally fixes itself.

What you're complaining about is not a rogue only issue, and energy regen? Yeah it's bad. But as others have said, DONT PLAY COMBAT WHILE LEVELING, problem solved.

I'm going assassination in WoD and since I hate energy starvation I will for starters aim for the talents and glyphs that net me 155 energy, if that still doesnt seem to cut it or it becomes to much, I will adapt.
The class works fine, and I never see it trail far behind on dps meters, if it isnt fun... well guess what, it might not be the class for you then.

[Brianjosel]

Are we talking actual new to the game players, or just new to the class? If just new to the class I think it is safe to assume they know DPS are OutDPSed by tanks in AoE. If they are new to the game, do they even know about DPS meters so that they actually know they're being carried? We're also leaving out some of the other most important parts of the leveling experience. Rogues are arguably the best class by doing random leveling BGs. We also have the advantage of stealthing past enemies why don't want to kill while leveling. That alone makes me slow about leveling my alts.

New to the game. It doesn't take long for someone to learn what recount is. My experience with questing on a rogue is that it is not a good idea to pull a lot of mobs. First time you burn CDs. Seconds time you die. Although it had been awhile.

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The only people who can keep up with a tank these days are people with heirlooms, atleast while leveling that is.

And if the tank has heirlooms? Be happy if you do 50% of his/her dps, because that is how blizzard set up the scaling, and it most likely wont change.


The only people I see coming even close to my dps when Im lvling a tank are survival hunters, sub rogues and elemental shamans, and the occasional frost mage with half a brain that is.

Destruction Warlock, Sub Rogue, Prot Warrior, Prot/holy paladin, resto druid, frost mage, survival hunter, blood DK, disc priest, elemental shaman, windwalker/brewmaster monk...

There is a reason why every single person with looms and half a brain levels using these specs. Because they are vastly superior while lvling to 85, at 85 any dps spec becomes the better choice because scaling finally fixes itself.

What you're complaining about is not a rogue only issue, and energy regen? Yeah it's bad. But as others have said, DONT PLAY COMBAT WHILE LEVELING, problem solved.

I'm going assassination in WoD and since I hate energy starvation I will for starters aim for the talents and glyphs that net me 155 energy, if that still doesnt seem to cut it or it becomes to much, I will adapt.
The class works fine, and I never see it trail far behind on dps meters, if it isnt fun... well guess what, it might not be the class for you then.

I concede I have leveled a rogue in awhile, whilst yout seem to have way more experience in the subject at present.

[catablitz]

I kinda agree with Coldkil, homogenization harmed rogues the most.

[Msi]

Front post is updated!

Subtlety Changes
Honor Among Thieves is an extremely powerful ability, but has the downside that it adds significant disparity between character power while soloing and while in a group. We made this change to bring up the soloing Subtlety Rogue, without having a significant impact on their performance while in a group. The passive ability Sinister Calling also received significant change to better balance scaling rates, the value of secondary stats, improve Multistrike for them, and add rotational depth.


Sinister Calling now increases Agility by 15% (down from 30%), and the amount of Multistrike bonus received from all sources by 5% (in order to act as Subtlety’s Secondary Stat Attunement). And finally, when the rogue Multistrikes with Backstab or Ambush, they also twist the blade, causing all Bleed effects to instantly tick an additional time.

[Deleted]

Now I'm not in beta, but I have a qeustion about Assurance of Consequence. Will this be baseline for Combat in WoD? Because if not, then Combat will be really boring. It has made me enjoy Combat. Anyone know anything about this?

[Vigilate]

The "Official" notes on the Blizzard site have literally nothing new in them for ANYONE, people. Those are more or less updates to what is currently available in Beta. Secondly, the datamined stuff on the front page of MMO appears to be only tool tip changes, again, for everyone. Do not freak out. Though, set bonuses have been changed.

Assassination:

-Item - Rogue T17 Assassination 2P Bonus Mutilate and Dispatch critical strikes restore 10 energy.
-Item - Rogue T17 Assassination 4P Envenom refunds 1 Combo Point and activates Blindside.

Subtlety:
-Item - Rogue T17 Subtlety 2P Bonus While Shadow Dance is active your abilities cost no Energy.
-Item - Rogue T17 Subtlety 4P For 5 sec after Shadow Dance ends, your finishing moves will refund 5 combo points.

[Feali]

-Item - Rogue T17 Subtlety 2P Bonus While Shadow Dance is active your abilities cost no Energy.

Please let this stay.

[Grayjoy]

Dat envenom 4 piece doe. Looks awesome. Mut is looking very fluid.