Rogue 6.0 patch notes

[Mafic]

MG is hitting harder than Sinister Strike unless I am imagining things. Why is Sinister Strike so underwhelming?

[SynergyDarkstar]

whys evis doing in some trys 30k and other 45k noncrit on the mythic dummy? ofc with revealing strike and red buff

Are you using DFA? Because iirc, Eviscerate is still listed as "Eviscerate" in the combat logs, but 50% stronger. That would match w/ your numbers.

(someone with beta please verify if I have this wrong)

[Deleted]

Are you using DFA? Because iirc, Eviscerate is still listed as "Eviscerate" in the combat logs, but 50% stronger. That would match w/ your numbers.

(someone with beta please verify if I have this wrong)

no using energy reg

[Wow]

Does it even work with Instant Poison yet or is it still reliant on non-lethal poison?

It now works with instant.

Supposedly the aoe pass comes soon.

I, uh, wouldn't expect too much there though.

They will probably nerf bladeflurry lol.

Enchants and food are all secondary stats, so you have to pick a stat there.

Since the nerfs to enchants they don't even give that much stats I'm not to sure how much it will even matter overall.

[Leih]

It now works with instant.

Just tried it and you're right, it does now. That's something at least...

Seems to last 12s from the last time your Instant Poison procced on a target, so I guess it's just the same as Deadly Poison now, except with Combat there's no visible timer to let you know how long is left on it.

But I guess it makes little difference because Blade Flurry is a thing.

[Verain]

MG is hitting harder than Sinister Strike unless I am imagining things. Why is Sinister Strike so underwhelming?

It's not. MG has a higher multiplier because it's hitting with your offhand, which has a giant damage penalty attached to it (like 50%).

[Leih]

It's not. MG has a higher multiplier because it's hitting with your offhand, which has a giant damage penalty attached to it (like 50%).

Dunno about that, Main Gauche is consistently hitting a little harder than Sinister Strike right now as I'm whacking the dummy:

[Pathal]

Main Gauche - 225%
SS - 102%
Main Gauche (post OH penalty) - 112.5%

Main Gauche hits harder with an equivalent offhand.

[Leih]

Main Gauche - 225%
SS - 102%
Main Gauche (post OH penalty) - 112.5%

Main Gauche hits harder with an equivalent offhand.

That seems to match up with the numbers I'm seeing, yeah.

[Wow]

Just tried it and you're right, it does now. That's something at least...

Seems to last 12s from the last time your Instant Poison procced on a target, so I guess it's just the same as Deadly Poison now, except with Combat there's no visible timer to let you know how long is left on it.

It actually works that way with all specs now. It doesn't require a target to have a poison on them just having poisoned something within 12secs.

[Leih]

It actually works that way with all specs now. It doesn't require a target to have a poison on them just having poisoned something within 12secs.

Seems like a fair way to do it, I guess.

[Silent Earth]

On the topic of MH vs. OH damage: they removed Ambidexterity for Combat, yes? I'm a bit confused on the Improved Dual Wield perk.

Improved Dual Wield

You no longer have a penalty to hitting with your autoattacks due to dual-wield.

This is worded a bit ambiguously, but because Ambidexterity is gone I'm assuming that means this removes the inherent miss chance tied to dual-wield. Is that correct? Autoattacks were already quite a large portion of Combat's damage, and going by the screenshots above, white hits look to be doing just as much if not more than SS/MG. This could potentially lead to a lot more of Combat's damage breakdown coming from autoattacks.

I know tuning isn't final, and I know that white hits contributing an absurd amount to a Rogue's overall damage isn't something new, but for someone who was hoping we would be moving away from so much passive damage, it is a bit... worrying.

[Leih]

On the topic of MH vs. OH damage: they removed Ambidexterity for Combat, yes? I'm a bit confused on the Improved Dual Wield perk.

Improved Dual Wield

This is worded a bit ambiguously, but because Ambidexterity is gone I'm assuming that means this removes the inherent miss chance tied to dual-wield. Is that correct?

As far as I can tell, this is correct yeah. It means that all of Combat's auto-attacks hit, no more miss-chance for your offhand.

[shadowboy]

whys evis doing in some trys 30k and other 45k noncrit on the mythic dummy? ofc with revealing strike and red buff

Which spec? If subtlety, FW ignores all armor and assuming armor is 30% damage reduction, means a FW evis will hit ~42% harder than a non-FW evis (and if mythic has more armor reduction, say 33% reduction, then FW would be a 50% increase in damage).

In the case of combat, deep insight is +50% damage so a 30k evis in no-insight would correspond to a 45k evis in deep insight.

- - - Updated - - -

On the topic of MH vs. OH damage: they removed Ambidexterity for Combat, yes? I'm a bit confused on the Improved Dual Wield perk.

Improved Dual Wield

This is worded a bit ambiguously, but because Ambidexterity is gone I'm assuming that means this removes the inherent miss chance tied to dual-wield. Is that correct? Autoattacks were already quite a large portion of Combat's damage, and going by the screenshots above, white hits look to be doing just as much if not more than SS/MG. This could potentially lead to a lot more of Combat's damage breakdown coming from autoattacks.

I know tuning isn't final, and I know that white hits contributing an absurd amount to a Rogue's overall damage isn't something new, but for someone who was hoping we would be moving away from so much passive damage, it is a bit... worrying.

That is exactly what it means and removing the miss penalty increases the AA damage less than the old version of ambidexterity did.
To explain what I mean by it being less. The DW miss chance is 17% so here's the numbers. Let's assume in both cases you have 2 weapons both with 100 dps (after ap bonus).

Improved Dual Wield: = 100 + 50 = 150 dps.
Ambidexterity = 100 * 0.83 + 87.5 * 0.83 = 155.625 dps.

The difference is slight but ambidexterity DOES contribute more autoattack dps than improved dual wield.

This is counteracted by the fact that improved dual wield yields ~20% more instant poison damage, and ~20% more MG procs. BUT it also means ~20% more CP procs, so more yellow damage (but not 20% more).

It's not easy to quantify so the dual wield change may or may not mean more passive damage (I'd intuitively guess that it does since it's an inherent nerf to killing spree).

[Silent Earth]

*snip*

Thanks for the explanation, that makes sense. And I think it's a neat perk for Combat (the extra MG attacks will be nice), I'm just hoping the autoattack damage doesn't go overboard. But it's all a numbers thing, I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[Deleted]

It cannot be said enough that this (AFAIK) is STILL NOT TRUE. Don't fall for the trick. And we should continue to remind them that their half-assed Rube Goldbergian solution is unacceptable (the solution being CPs on the mob, which transfer from mob to mob as you switch targets, oh and they still disappear under common conditions like skinning, pvp releases, despawning corpses, and certain boss phases).

I do agree with you. But me approving of it is just due to an acceptance that more then that won't be done anyway. These type of demands have been made since Cata beta period, where most of us were constantly giving feedback. It was mostly in vain, and instead they upped our dps numbers to shut us up and put a rogue legendary qeustline during Dragon Soul tier after they saw rogue population decline.
It was exactly during the Cata beta when Hunters, Priests, Paladins and Warlocks got their overhaul for quality of life changes. And rogues have missed that window of opportunity.

[Verain]

On the topic of MH vs. OH damage: they removed Ambidexterity for Combat, yes? I'm a bit confused on the Improved Dual Wield perk.

shadowboy nails it. The -19% miss chance for autoattacks goes away, but just for combat. However, the +50% offhand damage goes away (which is also a big nerf to spree). You used to deal 100% mainhand damage and 75% offhand damage. Now you'll deal 100% mainhand damage and 50% offhand damage.



Personally, I like autoattack damage. But I don't think it should be every rogue spec. Combat definitely feels like an engine where you are building up buffs to increase your character's expertise with melee weapons, which, honestly, is as I feel it should be. The spec has always been sold as a weapon supremacy spec, not a magical giant yellow hit spec or a channel hatred spec. It fits the kit and is good.


What I don't understand is keeping slice and dice for mutilate and making it passive. Who ordered that at the Design Hutt? That should be like "we made mutilate, envenom, and poison hit X% harder, and slice and dice is just gone". S+D is interesting and cool for combat and sub. For mutilate, it has been lame for years, but this is just SUPER lame.

[dak1]

Just asking because I'm genuinely curious what Rogue players have to say about this: what's the single biggest complaint you have about playing a Rogue in WoD, in terms of mechanics, rotation, etc.?

I'm not in the beta and cancelled my subscription/refunded my purchase of WoD, so not sure how much my opinion matters; however, I had been trying to keep up with the changes and here's a list of some of the things that drove me to quit/request a refund (note: I PvP'ed almost exclusively in MoP and have become quite addicted to Sub, although I used to play mainly Combat when I raided):

1) Rogues were promised a class redesign and Blizzard completely reneged. I don't care whether they think they actually promised that or not, I think almost every Rogue perceived that promise was made. Classes like Warriors and Mages, which have already gotten tons of love, saw far more changes than Rogues (hell, EVERYONE saw more changes than Rogues).

2) Tweets from developers gave me the strong impression that the lead developers have very little vested interest in the class and that nobody that has the power to actually make class changes has a good understanding of the Rogue class that one can only get from months of dedicated play. I won't bother to list tweets, I think most here have a good idea of what I'm referring to.

3) Items in Ashran. Not only were the Rogue book buffs extremely underwhelming compared to many other classes, but something like the "track all Rogues" book just really reinforced my opinion that many developers have at least an unconsciously hostile opinion of the Rogue class.

4) Backstab still has a positional requirement

5) Faerie Fire (and to a much lesser extent, Flare)

6) Our gap closing/movement should not be sitting as a high-level tier on the talent tree.

I don't care if you give everyone Shadowstep, or give different specs different movement abilities and talents to modify them, but it needs to change. I've personally been a fan of giving Shadowstep to Subt, Burst of Speed to Combat, Cloak and Dagger to Assassination and Subt, and Hit and Run to Assassination, but then I also favor crazy ideas like making Assassination a hybrid melee/ranged class, which is an entirely different thread.

7) We have some talents that just should be baseline. The class feels extremely dated, and it seems like some talents were created as half-assed fixes for problems. For example, Shuriken Toss should just be baseline and replace Throw. Anticipation (see point 8).

8) Something needs to be done to figure out a better management system for our combo points (whether that means giving us baseline 10 combo points, which I'm not a big fan of, or tweaking how combo points are generated to avoid most situations where they can be lost to begin with, which I think is better).

9) Attention to Detail

Our class really lacks any attention to detail, which seems small, but it really adds up and changes how the class feels dramatically. Bugs that have existed forever with Vanish and Subterfuge are one example. Another is issues like flag carrying and stealth. We are SO reliant on Stealth that we NEED to be allowed to stealth/access the stealth bar when carrying a flag or a power orb. This could be done by just making us visible to everyone at any distance even while in Stealth. Not being able to Sap a Hunter in Camo is another example.

10) Turning Subt into a multidotting bleed spec. We have no mobility or range, so we can't play like an Affliction lock, it's simply not possible. Forcing this playstyle on to the spec, especially with the (lack) of tools to support it, just destroys it. Most people I've spoken to who have played Rogue on beta have said that Assassination is now the main PvP spec. While I'm not opposed to Assassination being more viable (it needed it!), Subtlety should not be in the gutter, especially since it really is the most interesting/complex spec.

I'm sure others can mention a lot of other things, like the lackluster animations we have or the ugly sets, and I have plenty more complaints too, but those are the biggest ones that immediately come to mind.

A lot of discussion occurred in http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ring-WoD-(PvP) too.

[Silent Earth]

What I don't understand is keeping slice and dice for mutilate and making it passive.

Agreed. They were toying with the idea of cutting SnD for one spec, and I think Mut would have been the one for that. Having it active but only passively does seem strange. Maybe trying to tune Mut around big Mutilate/Envenom hits would have been too difficult? Who knows.

I do agree with your vision of Combat as the Rogue's weapon master of sorts. I'm just against any spec at all having so much of their damage come passively from autoattacking, but hey that's just me.

1) Rogues were promised a class redesign and Blizzard completely reneged.

Not strictly true. They said that Rogues (and Hunters) would be seeing tweaks to the specs to try and differentiate them, but they actually went out of their way on multiple occasions to clarify that they would not be seeing changes on par with what Warlocks received for Mists.

Whether they should have done is another discussion altogether (personally, I think Rogues are in dire need of some "change for the sake of change"), and the tweaking they have done, while a start, is in my opinion not enough.

There are silver linings, however. We could have been gutted like Hunters.

[Leih]

Agreed. They were toying with the idea of cutting SnD for one spec, and I think Mut would have been the one for that. Having it active but only passively does seem strange. Maybe trying to tune Mut around big Mutilate/Envenom hits would have been too difficult? Who knows.

I do agree with your vision of Combat as the Rogue's weapon master of sorts. I'm just against any spec at all having so much of their damage come passively from autoattacking, but hey that's just me.

Honestly I think it was because since SnD was already practically passive already, baking it in was the simplest way to remove it as a button without having to worry about actively changing or rebalancing anything else.