Professions no longer have combat benefit perks tied to them.

[Daez]

I see this as being a disappointment, but I understand their reasoning.

The original reason that professions (gathering) got these bonuses is because the production crafting professions had access to unique gear that could only be made for that profession. That will probably still exist (not that I am in disagreement if it does).

However, when you start to look at stat squish and at the game from a stat squish sort of view, much like they are focusing on now, you start to realize that the stat bonuses from professions are really getting out of hand. I think they started off well, but they jump so high at each particular level that it gets insane. For that reason, I support removal in a game that will pay much more attention to keeping player stats and npc stats balanced (assuming they manage to maintain that balance).

[Kojo]

Not having to work for anything and being able to leech off of those who have worked for something cool is great for me because I'm lazy and entitled and hate things being exclusive and out of my reach!

You're like a spoiled child crying that you have to share your toys with your sibling oblivious to the fact that you've been helping yourself to theirs for many years now.

But I guess you'll stop leeching flasks, enchants, buckles, leg patches now right? You might not find them as fun but you still got your greasy kid fingers all over them.

[Trubo]

Other professions only lose the combat perk whereas engineering loses combat perk AND utility perks. Granted other professions don't have amazing utility perks that Engineers do...

No. Other professions only got to offer combat perks for taking the profession. Their utility perks (i.e., leg armor kits, enchants, etc) have been available since their inception. Engineering has been made even relative to all other crafting professions AND now has a viable way of making money so again I ask: what's the problem?

Not having to work for anything and being able to leech off of those who have worked for something cool is great for me because I'm lazy and entitled and hate things being exclusive and out of my reach!

By this logic you better not be using leg armor kits, enchants, etc unless your character happens to have that profession learned. Otherwise you're just being a hypocrite.

Besides, it's not like there aren't still Engineering only items that will remain Engineering only, such as the BC mounts, epic helms, and teleports.

[roostah]

The latest proposed change will give you another revenue opportunity by being able to sell nitro boost and goblin glider modifications to everyone. I find it hard to believe that you're making money to rival JC and Enchanting solely from scopes, leveling trinket stuff and pets.

Well that depends on How you look at it.

Percentwise and gold per worked hour i think engi is competitive with them this due to the much lower competition.
You dont have to babysit ah.

compared to the shuffle which have netted me much more gold BUT takes much more time and work, time is money.

Sorry for bad english hope you understand my main points

[foxHeart]

You're like a spoiled child crying that you have to share your toys with your sibling oblivious to the fact that you've been helping yourself to theirs for many years now.

But I guess you'll stop leeching flasks, enchants, buckles, leg patches now right? You might not find them as fun but you still got your greasy kid fingers all over them.

No. A "spoiled child" wants to have everything without working for it, regardless if it makes sense for them to have it or not. For the past 9, going on 10 years, engineering has always had fun, unique little items that provided some kind of advantage in very niche circumstances or were just plain fun and impractical. It was never about a flat extra stat bonus. The glider, rocket boots, repair bots - all cool, bonus items that weren't considered requirements like belt buckles and enchantments. Those are mandatory. How many raiding guilds really go "Hm, well, we want our raiders all to be engineers over everything else because of X buff." No. That's bullshit. If anything, using tinkers like rocket boots can actually be considered a bad idea in a clutch situation because they've always had a chance to backfire or put an awful dot on you. It's not about boring, mandatory enchants, it was about fun. Even when my rocket boots backfired, it got a laugh out me, even moreso than when they actually worked. Being shot 50 feet into the air? Hilarious. Comparing them with mandatory, boring enchants is just ridiculous.

You wanna allow people to to have extra layers of character optimization through "mandatory" and expected enchants? That's fine. Kind of monotonous to some, I'm sure. But don't take something unique and hand it out to everyone and piss away it's rarity. But that's selfish and childish! Well, you know what, God forbid people work for something. Not like it's an mmo or anything and progression is the name of the game. Why don't we just give everyone every mount and every fun item ever created? Sounds great, right. Just log in and WOW, every mount ever in the mail. thx, blizz! ur the best! Let's not make anyone work for anything. Because it's childish to have requirements and to make people earn them. Right? Right. The end.

[Kojo]

On and on about "working for it", you leveled a profession, not super challenging bro.

[Trubo]

Well that depends on How you look at it.

Percentwise and gold per worked hour i think engi is competitive with them this due to the much lower competition.
You dont have to babysit ah.

compared to the shuffle which have netted me much more gold BUT takes much more time and work, time is money.

Sorry for bad english hope you understand my main points

All Engineering for AH sales currently are:

1. Pets
2. Mounts
3. Scopes
4. Leveling trinket + the gems for the trinket

1 and 2 have limited markets mostly because people now only need 1 per account to be happy with them. 3 is Hunter only which drastically reduces the number of players you can sell them too. 4 is only used for five levels before getting quickly replaced at 90 by 496 TI and DO/O:SW trinkets.

I understand your point but there's no way you can compare the amount of gold earned from Engineering with the same amount of effort as any of the other crafting professions. I do agree that the others lend themselves to more of a cutthroat re-listing fashion to be the best of the best but even if you're just posting auctions once a day you make pretty decent money.

- - - Updated - - -

No. A "spoiled child" wants to have everything without working for it, regardless if it makes sense for them to have it or not. For the past 9, going on 10 years, engineering has always had fun, unique little items that provided some kind of advantage in very niche circumstances or were just plain fun and impractical. It was never about a flat extra stat bonus. The glider, rocket boots, repair bots - all cool, bonus items that weren't considered requirements like belt buckles and enchantments. Those are mandatory. How many raiding guilds really go "Hm, well, we want our raiders all to be engineers over everything else because of X buff." No. That's bullshit. If anything, using tinkers like rocket boots can actually be considered a bad idea in a clutch situation because they've always had a chance to backfire or put an awful dot on you. It's not about boring, mandatory enchants, it was about fun. Even when my rocket boots backfired, it got a laugh out me, even moreso than when they actually worked. Being shot 50 feet into the air? Hilarious. Comparing them with mandatory, boring enchants is just ridiculous.

You wanna allow people to to have extra layers of character optimization through "mandatory" and expected enchants? That's fine. Kind of monotonous to some, I'm sure. But don't take something unique and hand it out to everyone and piss away it's rarity. But that's selfish and childish! Well, you know what, God forbid people work for something. Not like it's an mmo or anything and progression is the name of the game. Why don't we just give everyone every mount and every fun item ever created? Sounds great, right. Just log in and WOW, every mount ever in the mail. thx, blizz! ur the best! Let's not make anyone work for anything. Because it's childish to have requirements and to make people earn them. Right? Right. The end.

And again, Engineering still has "fun, unique little items" with the Wormhole Generators, MOLL-E, Blingtrong, Jeeves (which functions as a bank for Engineers ONLY), epic helms usable below the expansion's max-level cap that are competitive to entry-level raiding gear (I'm sorry, where was BS/LW/Tailoring's profession only epic armor these last two expansions?), and other items. You're just upset that two of the tinkers which have an actual impact on in-combat performance (even if they're miniscule advantages) are becoming usable by all rather than remaining Engineering only.

[FeedsOnDevTears]

I'm glad Blizzard didn't literally just sell boosts for them without telling everyone.

Weren't profession boosts part of the paid 90 package?

[Trubo]

Weren't profession boosts part of the paid 90 package?

Only if the boosted character was at least level 60.

[roostah]

All Engineering for AH sales currently are:

1. Pets
2. Mounts
3. Scopes
4. Leveling trinket + the gems for the trinket

1 and 2 have limited markets mostly because people now only need 1 per account to be happy with them. 3 is Hunter only which drastically reduces the number of players you can sell them too. 4 is only used for five levels before getting quickly replaced at 90 by 496 TI and DO/O:SW trinkets.

I understand your point but there's no way you can compare the amount of gold earned from Engineering with the same amount of effort as any of the other crafting professions. I do agree that the others lend themselves to more of a cutthroat re-listing fashion to be the best of the best but even if you're just posting auctions once a day you make pretty decent money.

looking at my 'trading' in mop i see that i've made about 1.5 mio gold so far. most part is from alchemy and xmute i guess, like 25% of it anyway (have 9 xmute masters that i do the daily cd on, it adds up).

havent used the other professions so much, i have them all. no glyphs, only little enchants and gems (from the shuffle), but some tailoring.

first half of mop the percentual gain on the trinket and the gems were crazy. bars costed me ~5g each and the gems sold for 250-500g each. the trinket costed ~100g and sold for about the same as the gems. i sold loads of them. so i wild guess is that i made at least 25% of the gold out of these. not negligilbe imo.

today these markets are much more competitive but they are still nothing compared to gems, enchants, potions/elixirs for example. glyphs i dont even look at.

but i'm glad that peeps, like you =) believe that there is far more gold in the others it keeps the competition lower.

to that i'll add that i check my ah about 1-2 times per day at the most. my routine takes max 10min and another 10 to do the xmute on all chars.

since i believe that time is money i never ever farm. i always buy the mats needed.

[Anzen]

I don't agree with this change at all.

Just normalize the professions perks. Professions seem useless in my mind.

[Trubo]

looking at my 'trading' in mop i see that i've made about 1.5 mio gold so far. most part is from alchemy and xmute i guess, like 25% of it anyway (have 9 xmute masters that i do the daily cd on, it adds up).

havent used the other professions so much, i have them all. no glyphs, only little enchants and gems (from the shuffle), but some tailoring.

first half of mop the percentual gain on the trinket and the gems were crazy. bars costed me ~5g each and the gems sold for 250-500g each. the trinket costed ~100g and sold for about the same as the gems. i sold loads of them. so i wild guess is that i made at least 25% of the gold out of these. not negligilbe imo.

today these markets are much more competitive but they are still nothing compared to gems, enchants, potions/elixirs for example. glyphs i dont even look at.

but i'm glad that peeps, like you =) believe that there is far more gold in the others it keeps the competition lower.

to that i'll add that i check my ah about 1-2 times per day at the most. my routine takes max 10min and another 10 to do the xmute on all chars.

since i believe that time is money i never ever farm. i always buy the mats needed.

I never said that the Engineering trinket has been useless for gold making. However, similar to the DMC Inscription trinkets, most of the money made from them over the course of the expansion is in the first patch or two, after which demand and value plummet due to availability of alternatives that are much easier to get.

This late in the patch cycle I find it hard to believe that you can make gold comparable to the other crafting professions with just Eng trinkets, Eng gems for the trinket and scopes. But since I was bored I decided to calculate the profit from Eng trinkets versus gems at market peak based on the data you gave me.

20 Bars = 40 ore = 8 Prospects. From what data I've briefly looked into you have about a 25% chance per prospect of getting a rare quality gem. So ~10 chance of no rare gems, ~90% chance of at least single rare quality gem, ~60% chance of at least 2 rare gems, ~32% of at least 3 and ~10% of at least 4. Not going to do the odds for the rest as they're fairly low and won't effect the final expected value all that much.

To calculate the expected value I'm going to go with average gem value of 250 gold and trinket value of 500 gold. Cost for trinket and 8 prospects is 100g (cost of 20 bars). Thus, profit values for prospecting will be -100 gold, 150 gold, 400 gold, 650 gold, and 900 gold for no rares, 1 rare, 2 rares, 3 rares, and 4 rares, respectively. Summing the product of scenario and scenario profit we get an expected value of about 690 gold for prospecting.

So let's continue to make a another assumptions in that all relevant product was sold. The profit you made for each trinket (400g) is ~2/3 what you could have made just from prospecting. This is not including what money you could have made from uncommon gems. What we can conclude from this is that you should have focused more on the gem market instead of the Eng trinket market as the gem market wasn't saturated enough to make the Eng trinket market equally competitive though it was decent gold either way for about the same time effort.

Edit: I may have been double dipping into expected values for each gem scenario. Can't remember for expected value if you only consider the scenarios for with X gems for calculating the values of said scenario or all scenarios with at least X. I did the later and it may have over valued by essentially double-dipping. Not able to compute the expected values for the former at the moment but if someone else wants to do so be my guest.

I don't agree with this change at all.

Just normalize the professions perks. Professions seem useless in my mind.

Then enjoy not leveling a profession. Meanwhile I will enjoy making money from you and others that feel the same way.

[roostah]

There you lost me

I roughly calculate my gain from the shuffle to 100% not sure how accurate it is but give or take some.
The thing i do not like is that it is very time consumimg and needs some knowledge of which gems to do or not.

I dont believe that you are wrong in that more gold is to made with jc but i still think that time/gold and maybe percental gain HAS been better with engi, not now though.

Again sorry for bad english writing in an iPhone with wrong langual settings

[Alroxas]

I don't agree with this change at all.

Just normalize the professions perks. Professions seem useless in my mind.

Blizzard tried, it doesn't work. Given how some classes work (and CD stacking), certain combinations become very powerful compared to others. And that's not counting gathering professions.

After all, what does mining combat perk (free stam) do for a DPS or a Healer? While it could be good for tanks, we see in late Mists, stam isn't as valuable as say haste for Prot Pallies or Mastery/Parry for Blood DKs.

Professions are a nice player based supplement to the WoW's in-game economy. However, the removal of combat perks helps address the larger issue that Blizzard mentioned previously: (paraphrased)

It stinks to have loot drop from a boss that you won but can't use because it has not been a) enchanted, b) gemmed, c) reforged in relation to the rest of your gear. Blizzard would rather have a loot drop be usable immediately instead of causing players to do all this "work" to use it.

Specifically "work" is defined as non-fun yet important optimization whether that optimization is basic (can I still hit the boss?) to advanced (how to maximize item x for class y, spec z).

It's one of the reasons why there are so many changes in Warlords like the removal of hit/exp, the removal of reforging, the reduced number of sockets and enchants (in general).

[Deleted]

Alroxas, I guess you're one of the people who never bother to enchant, gem or reforge their gear because it's too much of a hassle. With this change professions become useless, even more so then people suspected they would become before they announced the removal of the perks of actually having professions.

There is no reason whatsoever left now to actually have professions, it harms auction house trading on a large scale, it's dumbing down the game and overall a step in the wrong direction.

[Kojo]

Alroxas, I guess you're one of the people who never bother to enchant, gem or reforge their gear because it's too much of a hassle. With this change professions become useless, even more so then people suspected they would become before they announced the removal of the perks of actually having professions.

There is no reason whatsoever left now to actually have professions, it harms auction house trading on a large scale, it's dumbing down the game and overall a step in the wrong direction.

Well hey have fun with your no professions, I'm gonna be enjoying my flask duration bonus and my jeeves and bling and all those other toys, don't worry though I'll still sell you flasks and pots and it seems soon tinkers.

[Laexxi]

Blizzard tried, it doesn't work. Given how some classes work (and CD stacking), certain combinations become very powerful compared to others. And that's not counting gathering professions.

After all, what does mining combat perk (free stam) do for a DPS or a Healer? While it could be good for tanks, we see in late Mists, stam isn't as valuable as say haste for Prot Pallies or Mastery/Parry for Blood DKs.

Professions are a nice player based supplement to the WoW's in-game economy. However, the removal of combat perks helps address the larger issue that Blizzard mentioned previously: (paraphrased)

It stinks to have loot drop from a boss that you won but can't use because it has not been a) enchanted, b) gemmed, c) reforged in relation to the rest of your gear. Blizzard would rather have a loot drop be usable immediately instead of causing players to do all this "work" to use it.

Specifically "work" is defined as non-fun yet important optimization whether that optimization is basic (can I still hit the boss?) to advanced (how to maximize item x for class y, spec z).

It's one of the reasons why there are so many changes in Warlords like the removal of hit/exp, the removal of reforging, the reduced number of sockets and enchants (in general).

Yes there are strong combos, but to use them properly you need to do more than play WoW. The main reason I am playing is that there is a difference between the bottom and the top. Yes you can wear your gear unforged, ungemmed and unenchanted but if you want to max your performance you do not do that. (But I like the changes to reforge/stat change etc.)
If you want to max your performance you choose different combos or play a different playstyle. For me these changes do make sense in a way that there is no "THE combo" to use. They should have normalized the benefits or maybe like human trait works, to choose from 3.
Lets say mining: Strength, Crit or ATP
skinning: Crit, Haste, Agi

This makes sense in a "Lore way" and keeps the possibility to max out the performance.

[Anzen]

Blizzard tried, it doesn't work. Given how some classes work (and CD stacking), certain combinations become very powerful compared to others. And that's not counting gathering professions.
<snip>

That's why I suggested normalizing them. I don't know why it would be problematic for all professions to just give +320 primary stats. This goes along with Blizzards goal of making the choice of professions a choice (I like Leatherworking, I'll be a Leatherworker!) and still gives professions a purpose in character progression.

It's not that I feel professions are useless now (well in WoD), I mean they still fill their role of being a gold generator, but I liked the effort/reward given by professions in character progression.

This is coming from someone with 28 (off the top of my head) max level professions, it's not necessarily that I care all that much, I just don't think it feels right.

[ipoststuff]

There is no reason whatsoever left now to actually have professions, it harms auction house trading on a large scale, it's dumbing down the game and overall a step in the wrong direction.

No reason? Less people will have their proffs max out. But the people who max them will get more out of it. They didnt remove AH from game why would the trade stop? You cant make gold because you have less agility? I dont see your logic.

This is a great change.

[Deleted]

No reason? Less people will have their proffs max out. But the people who max them will get more out of it. They didnt remove AH from game why would the trade stop? You cant make gold because you have less agility? I dont see your logic.

This is a great change.

Because they're actively removing the way to make gold using professions, properly read all the changes. A hell of a lot of glyphs become automatically learned, most gem slots and enchants will be gone. Expect alchemie and the other professions currently selling items to suffer a similar fate in no time.