[Mage-WoD] Mage Beta Discussion

[Methusula]

@Northem, not going to quote your Great Wall of Text, but I find it extremely difficult to take anything you say seriously.

All I see in every post you make is logical fallacy, hyperbole, and very shallow thought processes. Don't mistake what I'm saying as an insult, I just don't think you display a deep enough understanding of this game and it's issues to be suggesting any sort of solutions, nor are you familiar enough with alpha changes to make any sort of informed conclusions about the state of affairs regarding changes to the Mage class.

You are absolutely entitled to have an opinion, but others are also absolutely entitled to point out when your opinion is demonstrably false.

[Polarthief]

No, they want cast times to affect PvE as well as PvP. The fact that you can cast virtually everything on the move affects both worlds. It's not a pure-PvP change and never has been.

The problem though is we now have very little instants as Frost. Ice Lance is only used on Frozen targets, and since you can't freeze anything in PvE, that leaves the following to net a FoF proc:

- Frostbolt (Cast Time)
- Frozen Orb (1m cooldown)
- Water Jet (Requires Frostbolts)

Meaning that outside of Frozen Orbs, we have no way to really deal any damage on the go now if we have no FoF procs. Even Brain Freeze now procs from Frostbolts too, and is also a cast time. Sure this makes Frostbolt worth casting, but it's pretty much gutted the instants that Frost has and now it will be a lot more immobile, not just a little bit. Arcane didn't get any mobility love outside of moving quicker (Improved Blink), but I feel like Frost will almost suffer the exact same fate without as much movement help. Kinda worries me for the state of Frost.

On the other hand, Fire is still just as mobile as ever, though I wouldn't be surprised if they nerfed Scorch's damage even further than the already pathetically-low hits it does now

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Sorry to bring bad news, but the wording of the spell clearly says: "Nether Tempest's damage is increased by 50% per Arcane Charge when cast"

That, is incredibly stupid, and I hope they change their minds on that.

If you mean to its visual effect, sorry for bring bad news again but the spell wording says: "triggers a wave of arcane energy that deals..." so its visual effect would be the same of [Arcane Explosion].

In short, [Nether Tempest] will become [Arcane Bomb] (the change of name and icon is required).

However, we could recover [Nether Tempest] in a more innovative way ...

When I said it "looks insane", I meant that the whole "AoE DoT" thing seemed cool. No idea what it will look like.

Also, both of your statements are purely speculation based on BLIZZARD'S wording, and lets be honest, Blizzard is among the worst companies when it comes to words and their true meanings, so until I actually see it, I'm going to give both of NT's effects and visuals the BOTD.

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Got no more factual backing behind your assertion that it'll look like Arcane Explosion than anyone else has behind the assertion that it'll make a bunch of missiles, except the people who say it'll be missiles have historical precedent & the fact that it's still called Nether Tempest.

Basically how I feel. Don't read too deeply into words. Would be incredibly stupid for them to make it look like Arcane Explosion.

Remember how Warlocks lost Drain Soul and just had Malefic Grasp? Then Blizzard remembered that Drain Soul has been here longer than one expansion, so they simply swapped the names back and just scrapped MG. While NT has been here for only one expansion, why would they suddenly change the way it looks entirely? Also, I'd probably bet that they'll be changing the whole snapshotting with Arcane Charges thing. There's already enough confusion as to what snapshots and what doesn't; why would they continue to be making some DoTs snapshot?

[Orrin]

That, is incredibly stupid, and I hope they change their minds on that.

I think this is the way to return snapshotting as skill check. With 30% leniency period on Dots it's not as hard as it would be in MoP or before. Also I wonder when damage numbers are final, how many seconds after the end of NT it will be possible to wait until 4 stacks of Arcane Charge to cast new NT and don't drop have a drop of damage and if it will be possible at all.
Another question I have now is if NT damage updates with Incanter's Flow fluctuation

[Imnick]

That's true Polarthief, but if you look at other classes it's equally true for them. Fire's actually extremely privileged to keep its mobile casting spell, we were the first to get one and I think we're now the only caster spec to keep it.
Fire and Frost are arguably still in a better mobile DPS position than most other specs. Hunters are the only exception.

We still have our talented mobility cooldowns too, you left them out of your list.

[Polarthief]

Another question I have now is if NT damage updates with Incanter's Flow fluctuation

I'd assume it would, just class-specific procs and effects will probably stay snapshotted while raw buffs to damage, Haste, Crit, Multistrike, and Mastery (if applicable to the DoT[s] in question) will snapshot.

That's true Polarthief, but if you look at other classes it's equally true for them. Fire's actually extremely privileged to keep its mobile casting spell, we were the first to get one and I think we're now the only caster spec to keep it.
Fire and Frost are arguably still in a better mobile DPS position than most other specs. Hunters are the only exception.

Fire's obviously the most mobile (Hunters excluded), but Frost is almost in line with Arcane now, almost. The only one worse than Arcane would be Shadow Priest methinks, if not, Arcane would be worse.

We still have our talented mobility cooldowns too, you left them out of your list.

I personally use BS, but more for the "I need to gtfo of here!" more than "I need to get from Point A to Point B to setup my next 'plant my ass here' area". I just wish they made Improved Blink a baseline perk instead of Arcane only... /wrath

[Mastamage]

but Frost is almost in line with Arcane now, almost.

Are you and I playing the same game? Frost is far ahead of Arcane in terms of mobility.

[Polarthief]

Are you and I playing the same game? Frost is far ahead of Arcane in terms of mobility.

In WoD. Yes, it's ahead, but it won't be by far. Ice Lance is our only instant other than Orb.

PS: Neither of us are playing WoD. No need to be rude.

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So I just went over to the Hunter forums out of pure curiosity and knowledge on Deterrence (for when we get Evanescence), and in my search, someone linked this to me: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ips-and-Tricks

Essentially, it's just a bunch of tips for T16, but it also listed out pretty much everything that Deterrence will block on a per-fight basis. I, barely playing my Hunter, am pretty inexperienced in what it blocks and what it doesn't, all I knew was that it was very awkward, but going through that list, I'm actually incredibly shocked at how many things it deflects and it makes me very excited to try out our new mini-Deterrence. Just kinda wish it came with that 30% damage reduction for 3s to give us that small safety net in case it doesn't block something, haha.

But yeah, just wanted to post that and share the wealth of information, since we're to assume Deterrence and Evanescence is essentially the same thing.

Edit: THIS THING BLOCKS KNOCKBACKS, TOO?! Holy crap, why don't we have this yet?!

[Zoros]

I really dislike Supernova, it feels silly, like a bad replacement for the lost arcane shatter gameplay. I think it would be better an arcane version of Cone of Cold, than this arcane version of Frost Nova.

For example:

Cone of Repulsion: Mid range channeled cone, consumes all charges, it generates a force of repulsion that moves enemies backwards (more if they are slowed, like the wind of some instances), dealing damage to them. For each charge consumed it lasts an additional second and deals more damage.

It could be awesome with Ice Floes. And I think that it would be a nice alternative to finish our aoe rotation. Seriously, maybe Supernova could be appealing for another class, but for arcane mage feels completly out of place. It has no interaction with any of our mechanics.

Another idea... What about recovering the old Flame Orb talent that make it explodes for Arcane Orb? It could be a glyph, glyph of Unstable Orb, when casted a second a second time Arcane Orb explodes dealing additional damage. Besides, it would be perfect to make Arcane Orb SLOW all the affected targets. Slow needs more life!

[Polarthief]

Slow needs more life!

I believe Slow is losing its target limit since it's only going to slow movement speed now. Other classes have things that can MASS slow (Fan of Knives with Crippling Poison for instance), so there's no point in target-capping Slow to 1.

Maybe if Arcane Barrage Blast procs an Unstable Magic proc, it will proc Slow on everything, too. Would be neat.

Edit: I'm mental.

[Kuni Zyrekai]

Maybe if Arcane Barrage procs an Unstable Magic proc, it will proc Slow on everything, too. Would be neat.

Unstable Magic has its own damage event called Unstable Magic. Unless they change the glyph itself to apply, it won't by default.

[Polarthief]

Unstable Magic has its own damage event called Unstable Magic. Unless they change the glyph itself to apply, it won't by default.

TBH it wouldn't be that unfair. Arcane has always lacked CC, mobility, and hasn't had any presence in PvP for awhile.

PS: I meant Blast, but I'm glad to see you auto-ignored my idiocy in your head without telling me. Classy as ever, Kuni <3

[Milamber]

What if Amplify Magic would improve the raids Spell Power by 12% (or another amount)? That would be more in Mages flavor, and it would be useful for soloing.

I guess another dmg cooldown is not what they want, since this way most of the time it would be used as a dmg cooldown and not a healing cooldown.

[Zoros]

My major complain with Amplify Magic is that we won't feel that we are saving people thanks to it, we won't see the effect. It's just a minor %. For example, if our holy priest mate is being attacked by two melees, casting Amplify Magic will give him a chance to survive? It would prefer a tool more similar to Guardian Spirit for dungeons and pvp. It would be more reactive and rewarding to play. For raids, something more like Power Word: Barrier will be more appealing.

Although I know that my suggestions are not welcome in these forums, I do not publish them because I think they are the perfect solutions, but to promote the creativity of the people, so that you can approach the issues from other points of view. In fact, it is more visually appealing and more fun to see a suggested spell instead of reading a wall of text. I would regret to have to leave these forums for trying to give a distinctive touch to my ideas.

For example, I would kill two birds with one stone by replacing [Amplify Magic] by another recently lost spell:

Greater Temporal Shield Baseline spell for all Mages at level 87 3.0% of base mana Instant 2 min cooldown Envelops each one of all party and raid members within 100 yards in a temporal shield for 10 sec. While an ally is shielded by a temporal shield a 80% of all the damage taken will be healed back to him over the next 5 seconds.

A raid wide Temporal Shield is an excellent suggestion. 10 second duration is OP, it should be balanced with Power Word: Barrier. It would be a fun cooldown to use, and we will see its effect. Besides our loved Temporal Shield would still exists in some way. Amplify Magic is an old spell from the past, but it was never that popular.

I vote for Temporal Shield as our new raid cd.

[Imnick]

You can vote all you like, but considering there's no poll it's not going to win you anything.

[Zoros]

TBH it wouldn't be that unfair. Arcane has always lacked CC, mobility, and hasn't had any presence in PvP for awhile.

Completly agree, with cast speed reduction and target cap gone for Slow, we need a tool with mid cooldown to apply Slow on several targets. Like warlock's Fire and Brimestone-Conflagrate. Options:

Arcane Barrage
Arcane Orb
Supernova
Unstable Magic
Presence of Mind redesigned to make our next Arcane Blast affect all nearby enemy targets.
An arcane version of Cone of Cold

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You can vote all you like, but considering there's no poll it's not going to win you anything.

Your obvious condescending replly won't make you win anything either.

[Imnick]

Well I mean, I'll still get Amplify Magic despite all the nonsense claims that it's unfitting, unworkable or useless, so I'm happy to count that as a small victory.
Giving someone 20% DR doesn't give you much of a feeling of directly saving their life either, their health just decreases marginally more slowly. The kind of drastic cooldowns that miraculously bring someone back from the brink are for healers.

It's also why we're never going to get a cooldown that nullifies the damage from an ability the raid survives, and why I shouldn't even have had to type that sentence because it's so incredibly obvious.
It would not be balanced against Power Word: Barrier, that's a healer cooldown. It'd have to be balanced against Smoke Bomb.

If you're watching their health bar it's quite possible that you will see the effect of your cooldown (a sudden upswing in their health) more effectively than you would if you reduced their damage taken (something that's never actually visible at all).

[Milamber]

I think amplifys Flavor is given, in memory of the old Amplify Magic.

And the fact that its not useable while soloing - well its a Multiplayer game, and you can always pop it before drinking a healing potion ;-)

[Deleted]

The 12s duration of Nether Tempest fits really well into a AB4AMABr rotation. ABr + 4 x AB sans Haste amounts 1.5s + 2.25s + 2.25s * 0.95 + 2.25s * 0.9 + 2.25s * 0.85 = 9.825s of casttime. As you almost always get an AM proc you can add 2s for AM. 1.5s for the NT cast itself and you are at 13.325s. More AM Procs make the cycle even longer. Though I would assume that with Haste, RNG and the 30% Pandemic the cycle will be pretty smooth.

Last but not least if the NT Cast can proc AM, then I can see us even wasting a second or two on NT for fishing a proc.

[Polarthief]

What if Amplify Magic would improve the raids Spell Power by 12% (or another amount)? That would be more in Mages flavor, and it would be useful for soloing.

I guess another dmg cooldown is not what they want, since this way most of the time it would be used as a dmg cooldown and not a healing cooldown.

Except then it's another stackable DPS raid cooldown like Stormlash or Skull Banner, and they DON'T want these.

I think amplifys Flavor is given, in memory of the old Amplify Magic.

And the fact that its not useable while soloing - well its a Multiplayer game, and you can always pop it before drinking a healing potion ;-)

Yup. Also glyphed Ice Block/Evanescence, Cauterize, and Cold Snap.

Also, it would be nice if maybe it did give a Temporal Shield like effect. Maybe increase healing by 12% and also rewind 20% of all damage done to everyone during the duration, sort of like a DK's Death Strike (it gives back 20% of all damage done over the previous 5s).

[Deleted]

[...]Also, it would be nice if maybe it did give a Temporal Shield like effect. Maybe increase healing by 12% and also rewind 20% of all damage done to everyone during the duration, sort of like a DK's Death Strike (it gives back 20% of all damage done over the previous 5s).

Cooldowns on dps that provide a large amount of direct healing are also not ok. Compare this to Tranquility or Healing Tide being Resto only for Druids or Shamans in WoD.

The new raid cooldowns for dps look like they are aimed to reduce the effect of raid mechanics but not being able to counter them.