Guardian Alpha Patchnotes

[Callsignecho]

Thrash seems like a great way to give Bears lots of rage in AoE situations at least. At two targets even it seems like a solid choice if it's that close on single target.

Something else to consider when trying to decide if Thrash is worth it is how well people can judge when they should use it like Arielle said.

If this ends up being a hard thing for most people to manage, and the effective benefit is pretty small, then it's probably best to just skip Thrash on single target.

Thrash is definitely worth it on 2 targets, especially if they stay alive for the full duration of Thrash. 40 rage in one GCD is amazing.

I agree that if it comes down to it in the end where Thrash and no Thrash do about the same thing, then we will probably skip it on single target.

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For most players, probably. However since it will most definitely be a DPS increase, the higher-skilled players will squeeze them in where it's not a significant disadvantage RPS-wise to do so.

That's actually hard to say at this point. They decreased the amount of attack power we gain and benefit from across the board and are only making part of it up through our new mastery. Thrash scaled quite well with attack power (Vengeance) before. Who knows how well it will look with the changes. It could be about on par with our other abilities.

[Arielle]

That's actually hard to say at this point.

Not really.

Thrash ignores armor. It also has to do generate more threat over 16 seconds than AoE DPS can do over the same time. AoE DPS has to be significantly better than single target in those situations to encourage DPS to use those abilities. Plus we know that tank DPS will be somewhere in the ballpark of 75-80% of someone in a full DPS role.

All of these point to one application of Thrash being better than a single impact hit of Lacerate.

[Ampere]

For most players, probably. However since it will most definitely be a DPS increase, the higher-skilled players will squeeze them in where it's not a significant disadvantage RPS-wise to do so.

Hard to disagree there. I'd imagine if the relative damage of the DoT is buffed by 50% (leveling perk) it really should be a really good damage per GCD ability, maybe even the highest damage per GCD Bear attack. Particularly since it won't be recast before the DoT falls off in WoD. Everything is Alpha, but that's probably a pretty solid predicition.

[Callsignecho]

Had a conversation with Rygarius on Twitter. Thrash's periodic effect may be changing in some way. If it is affected by haste, it would be really good.

[Arielle]

Had a conversation with Rygarius on Twitter. Thrash's periodic effect may be changing in some way. If it is affected by haste, it would be really good.

I don't see why Haste would affect our Thrash. We already scale really well with Haste through Rage generation and MS. Plus you would just end up feeling even worse when trying to maintain Pulverize, and yet not having time for all of your Mangle procs and Thrash. In a Pulverize-less rotation you will usually have enough GCDs to maintain it anyway, without the Bleed scaling from Haste.

For specs like Feral it makes more sense, since they currently scale like garbage with Haste.

[Callsignecho]

I don't see why Haste would affect our Thrash. We already scale really well with Haste through Rage generation and MS. Plus you would just end up feeling even worse when trying to maintain Pulverize, and yet not having time for all of your Mangle procs and Thrash. In a Pulverize-less rotation you will usually have enough GCDs to maintain it anyway, without the Bleed scaling from Haste.

For specs like Feral it makes more sense, since they currently scale like garbage with Haste.

Why not? It would seem to be more of a way to balance the amount of haste we go after.

If we get too little, if any, haste, then we may become rage starved and not have enough to maintain our rage consuming abilities.

If we get too much, then we have more rage then we know what to do with, and may not be able to maintain everything that we want, like you stated.

Hitting that sweet spot may have a design intent behind it, the point where we feel comfortable with our rage generation, so we don't go crazy with it. However, Pulverize may screw up how you gear entirely.

But, if Thrash's DoT does get affected by haste, how would the partial tick work? Would it generate rage at all, or would it just be extra damage?

[Aseyhe]

I'm not following these suggestions that thrash could ever fail to be worth casting over lacerate for rage alone, at least without pulverize. As discussed in my earlier post, the best-case lacerate -- used immediately after mangle -- still only picks up an average of 2.5 rage from the reset chance (actually slightly less than that if we take the computation to second order). While it's better to use thrash immediately before mangle, it's always better to replace lacerate with thrash relative to not using thrash at all.

Pulverize does change the story at little, because even ignoring its uptime maintenance, the fact that it generates 20 more rage than lacerate (and doesn't have a cooldown) means each lacerate is effectively worth an extra 20/3 rage. That brings lacerate above thrash on the first GCD after mangle (and very close on the others).

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Hard to disagree there. I'd imagine if the relative damage of the DoT is buffed by 50% (leveling perk) it really should be a really good damage per GCD ability, maybe even the highest damage per GCD Bear attack. Particularly since it won't be recast before the DoT falls off in WoD. Everything is Alpha, but that's probably a pretty solid predicition.

I'd also say that's a pretty safe prediction, given that thrash in 5.4 is already the highest damage per GCD attack by a large margin!

[Dreyen]

thrash ticks getting affected by haste would make sense with how they want to change things, its the ability that gets affected the least by the new haste changes.

[exochaft]

I don't think it is meant to replace it. I think it is meant to supplement it, by replacing a Mangle for a Pulverize and gaining a defensive benefit from it every 10 seconds. There are still benefits for using Mangle (extra potential rage gen, multistrike health procs) and this is why the rotation works out. Without the Pulverize talent, our rotation is similar to what is now, Mangle > mindless spam of other abilities. It brings order to Druid tanks and develops a rotation.

Hitting that sweet spot may have a design intent behind it, the point where we feel comfortable with our rage generation, so we don't go crazy with it. However, Pulverize may screw up how you gear entirely.

But, if Thrash's DoT does get affected by haste, how would the partial tick work? Would it generate rage at all, or would it just be extra damage?

Sorry for the double-quote, happens when real life stuff trumps gaming.

For the first, I didn't mean that Pulverize right now is meant to replace Mangle, I stated that at some point in an earlier alpha build it appears Pulverize was probably toyed with as replacing Mangle. In the later builds, which we've seen currently, it gives the appearance of being reverted back to a separate ability not meant to replace Mangle while still having some residual affects from being meant to replace Mangle. Happens quite often in coding when you alter some specific code back and forth while working with different versions of the same thing. I expect some change in the basic conditions and resulting effects of Pulverize in future builds.

With respect to Thrash, it could go either way with haste. I doubt having too much rage is of much concern, as we'd deal with it in a similar way as we do now: rage-dump via Maul/FR or just let rage cap. Plus, I don't think any Guardian ever really complains about having too much rage, as having too little or not enough at the right time is much, much worse. If Thrash DoT's eventually become affected by haste, I think the simple solution for rage generation from the extra tick would be just dividing 2 rage by the fraction of a tick we receive. I'm pretty sure it'd always award at least 1 rage or a maximum of 2 rage, but that's hardly anything to min/max over.

thrash ticks getting affected by haste would make sense with how they want to change things, its the ability that gets affected the least by the new haste changes.

It'd definitely make sense if their goal is to have haste push rage generation from all aspects "faster" across the board. How good or bad haste turns out will be at the mercy of scaling. As long as we can generate good threat from Thrash to where another tank doesn't just one-and-done beat our AoE threat even with a decent lead, I think we'll be at a good starting point!

[Callsignecho]

Sorry for the double-quote, happens when real life stuff trumps gaming.

For the first, I didn't mean that Pulverize right now is meant to replace Mangle, I stated that at some point in an earlier alpha build it appears Pulverize was probably toyed with as replacing Mangle. In the later builds, which we've seen currently, it gives the appearance of being reverted back to a separate ability not meant to replace Mangle while still having some residual affects from being meant to replace Mangle. Happens quite often in coding when you alter some specific code back and forth while working with different versions of the same thing. I expect some change in the basic conditions and resulting effects of Pulverize in future builds.

With respect to Thrash, it could go either way with haste. I doubt having too much rage is of much concern, as we'd deal with it in a similar way as we do now: rage-dump via Maul/FR or just let rage cap. Plus, I don't think any Guardian ever really complains about having too much rage, as having too little or not enough at the right time is much, much worse. If Thrash DoT's eventually become affected by haste, I think the simple solution for rage generation from the extra tick would be just dividing 2 rage by the fraction of a tick we receive. I'm pretty sure it'd always award at least 1 rage or a maximum of 2 rage, but that's hardly anything to min/max over.

It'd definitely make sense if their goal is to have haste push rage generation from all aspects "faster" across the board. How good or bad haste turns out will be at the mercy of scaling. As long as we can generate good threat from Thrash to where another tank doesn't just one-and-done beat our AoE threat even with a decent lead, I think we'll be at a good starting point!

It would be an interesting idea if Pulverize were to replace Mangle, and if that was there plan at one point, I can see where they were going with it, however, I do not think it would go over so well. The reason would be that the rotation would be 3x Lacerate -> Pulverize and repeat for maximum rage generation, unless Pulverize had some mechanic where it could be reset like Mangle, not consume Lacerates, but still give you the rage. Maybe throwing in Thrash at certain points.

Personally, I think that, if Thrash's DoT is affected by haste, then you would get 2 rage per tick, no matter the time between the ticks, and the partial ticks would just be damage with no rage generation.

To go off of what Aseyhe is saying, I agree, however, I think my main problem now with the Thrash debate is that by the time Thrash has a chance to be used or be useful, what would be the point of it outside of a high damaging ability? At that point, the rage generation from it would be meaningless to the magnitude of rage coming in vs. getting consumed and it is simply a damaging filler ability. Since threat isn't an issue and our damage will already be far enough lower than a dps, it seems like Thrash has an identity crisis as a tank on a single target.

[Aseyhe]

I'm not seeing the problem. For single-target rage generation, thrash is an ability that's between lacerate and mangle in priority. The ability has to exist because it's the area attack. It has to be better than lacerate for rage generation, lest you force tanks to choose between mitigation and damage. And if you make it generate more rage, it's still an ability that's between lacerate and mangle in priority.

What change are you looking for?

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I'd also add that you can come up with scenarios where the decision between lacerate and thrash is interesting from a survival standpoint. If you need rage immediately, you cast lacerate even if thrash is down; and conversely, if you anticipate you won't have a chance to refresh thrash in the near future, you can refresh it early.

[Callsignecho]

I'm not seeing the problem. For single-target rage generation, thrash is an ability that's between lacerate and mangle in priority. The ability has to exist because it's the area attack. It has to be better than lacerate for rage generation, lest you force tanks to choose between mitigation and damage. And if you make it generate more rage, it's still an ability that's between lacerate and mangle in priority.

What change are you looking for?

The problem is that Thrash's bleed is a static rage generation, which means it is not altered by haste. Doing calculations a page ago, I found that using Thrash at all is actually sub-optimal if you are able to generate 3 useful Mangle procs a minute, as it generates slightly more rage, on average, over time, however, only getting 2 useful Mangle procs per minute makes Thrash far more worth it. Practical Application says that 3 useful Mangle procs a minute should be no problem. This assumes that some haste is in the system. At no haste, Thrash is worth it. At high haste Thrash is worth it, but only for the damage output (as you will have plenty of rage coming in). However, the middle ground that I found, Thrash is not worth it for a particular window of haste. (This is all using the new haste calculations).

The change I'm looking for is for Thrash's bleed to be affected by haste. That way Thrash will always be better than a Lacerate, no matter the haste in the system. This change might be coming as per a Twitter conversion I had today. If that's the case, then everything is fine in my book.

[Braindwen]

In no way does it make sense for haste to cause thrash to be "not worth it". Lacerate will do X damage and generate X rage with a GCD affected by haste. Thrash will do Y damage and generate Y rage with a GCD affected by haste. Neither the damage nor the rage generation of either ability increases with haste, only how quick the GCD is.

You can never actually do that. The CD of Mangle and the GCD decrease at the same rate. It will always be Mangle -> X -> X -> X -> Mangle.

Psh, think outside the box more, we'll totally be running 100% haste for a 3s CD mangle.

In all seriousness, we might end up doing that if a mechanic gave us silly amounts of haste (e.g something like primordius, sinestra, etc.), but yeah, it'll always normally be 3gcds between the CD.

[Aseyhe]

Thrash generates a static amount of rage per cast. So does lacerate, and mangle, and every other ability. It doesn't affect its viability at all.

[Callsignecho]

Thrash generates a static amount of rage per cast. So does lacerate, and mangle, and every other ability. It doesn't affect its viability at all.

The viability of Thrash does not revolve around the idea that all of our abilities have static haste. It revolves around how haste affects the GCD of our abilities, but does not affect Thrash's bleed effect. The problem is that, no matter how much haste you obtain, Thrash's rage generation stays the same over any period of time, no matter what happens. However, with Mangle and Lacerate, they are affected by haste, by the shortening of the GCD, meaning they can be hit more often over any period of time, generating more rage.

An example would be the duration of Thrash's bleed effect, 16 seconds. At little to no haste levels, Thrash will generate ~18 rage on average (2 initial plus 2 per 2 sec). Mangle and Lacerate will generate their rage values of 30 and 10, respectively, and Thrash will always be a better rage generator because of how slow rage is generated. This is because there are only 10-11 CGDs in that time frame (depending on haste levels).

Using the same example, but this time with high haste levels (in the ~1 second GCD range), will give us around 15-16 GCDs. Thrash still only generate ~18 rage on average and Mangle and Lacerate still generate 30 and 10 rage, respectively. However, we are able to fit 5-6 more Mangles and Lacerates into our rotation at this point, giving us a huge amount of rage in a shorter period of time. Why Thrash becomes viable at this point is that rage is not a factor anymore. Damage is. We generate so much rage from the extra GCDs that we have more than we will ever need in that period of time.

However, when we examine the haste levels that give us the 12-14 GCDs in 16 seconds, where we still need rage generation for defensive purposes, but some is starting to head towards offensive abilities (Maul without Tooth and Claw as an example), Thrash's rage generation does not cut it. Suddenly, we have just enough GCDs and uses of Mangle, Lacerate, and Mangle procs, on average, to average a higher rage generation from those two abilities alone. Adding in Thrash would be a rage generation loss. To note, this area of GCDs is very possible and viable.

My issue, problem, and concern with Thrash is that it becomes less useful as a tanking/survival ability that generates rage for defensive use and more of a dpsing/offensive ability as haste increases for single targets. However, the simple fix to this problem is allowing Thrash's bleed to be affected by haste, thus, allowing a purpose to maintain it for defensive rage generation and not only as offensive damage output. This clears up the middle ground.

[Aseyhe]

However, when we examine the haste levels that give us the 12-14 GCDs in 16 seconds, where we still need rage generation for defensive purposes, but some is starting to head towards offensive abilities (Maul without Tooth and Claw as an example), Thrash's rage generation does not cut it. Suddenly, we have just enough GCDs and uses of Mangle, Lacerate, and Mangle procs, on average, to average a higher rage generation from those two abilities alone. Adding in Thrash would be a rage generation loss. To note, this area of GCDs is very possible and viable.

This is not true. Mangle and lacerate generate the same amount of rage per cast no matter how much haste you have. Each cast of thrash only ever replaces a single cast of lacerate. If thrash beats lacerate at low haste, it will still beat lacerate at high haste.

To put it another way, at high haste, thrash contributes a smaller fraction of your total rage, but it also costs a proportionally smaller fraction of your global cooldowns.

[Callsignecho]

This is not true. Mangle and lacerate generate the same amount of rage per cast no matter how much haste you have. Each cast of thrash only ever replaces a single cast of lacerate. If thrash beats lacerate at low haste, it will still beat lacerate at high haste.

To put it another way, at high haste, thrash contributes a smaller fraction of your total rage, but it also costs a proportionally smaller fraction of your global cooldowns.

You are right. I went back and looked at my work. Haste does not affect how the static rage generation works in this case. It just makes it seem like it has a higher chance of happening.

However, the problem that I am trying to convey in all this isn't that Thrash > Lacerate on the rage generation scale (This is always true). The problem is if that Lacerate used over Thrash generates an extra useful Mangle proc, on average, over a Thrash-less rotation, then it generates more rage. The chance of this happening is low, but it exists, and that is what irritates me.

[Ampere]

thrash ticks getting affected by haste would make sense with how they want to change things, its the ability that gets affected the least by the new haste changes.

I wouldn't argue against it, but I'd be pretty surprised. Generally seems that each spec in the game benefits from haste in one of three ways, either you get more resources (energy, runes, focus), abilities CD faster (sanctity of battle, new passive for warriors and bears), or more dot/hot ticks and faster casts. I might have missed something, but I think that's it. They seem to be pretty set on the design that a spec that benefits from hasted resources or CDs will not get hasted dots.

If all dots in the game got more ticks from the haste stat, it would be a bit more straightforward and any dps imbalance could probably be corrected with number tuning.

[Dreyen]

I wouldn't argue against it, but I'd be pretty surprised. Generally seems that each spec in the game benefits from haste in one of three ways, either you get more resources (energy, runes, focus), abilities CD faster (sanctity of battle, new passive for warriors and bears), or more dot/hot ticks and faster casts. I might have missed something, but I think that's it. They seem to be pretty set on the design that a spec that benefits from hasted resources or CDs will not get hasted dots.

If all dots in the game got more ticks from the haste stat, it would be a bit more straightforward and any dps imbalance could probably be corrected with number tuning.

this is changing however. The idea i get from blizzard is that they want haste to be 100% effective for everyone. Increasing cast speed by 25% means a 25% dps increase for most casters, breakpoints aside. This is why classes that didnt get a 100% increase from haste, such as warriors and beartanks and whoever else, got the sanctity of battle treatment.

With this change, we get more rage, faster attacks... thrash would scale poorly with haste, because you'll still use it only once every 18s, while everything else gets used more often. Thrash still gets the benefit of a lower gcd though i guess..

[Braindwen]

Technically, the way to do that would be to have thrash simply tick faster, but gain no extra ticks. E.g. ticking 8 times over 16s at 0% haste, ticking 8 times over 12.8s at 25% haste, and the like. That would preserve our rotation (outside of CDs such as berserk), and cause 1% haste to just make it go 1% faster. I really doubt that's going to happen, it's just a theoretical idea on how to go about that.

Having thrash scale like many other DoTs would cause it to double-dip from haste (admittedly...many of those other DoTs do too...), in that it does more damage and "casts" faster. 1% haste would be 1% more damage, plus a little extra from extra filler moves.

Mostly, this only matters for AoE, where thrash's DoT will probably be a large portion of our DPS for something that has 0 current interaction with haste.