So Bear-Cat was OP, but Gladiator Stance is acceptable?

[Santti]

I'm not ignoring it, I'm saying that nobody had a problem with it before Cata and I do not understand why 3 xpacks later it suddenly was OP. Gutting an entire spec was not an appropriate response.

It was not changed because it was OP, it was changed because it was hell to balance.

[Dazzy]

If I'm clueless, then you must be illiterate because I specifically mentioned that in my post. Doesn't change the fact that they are able to tank and reasonably dps in one spec with one set of glyphs and gear, the same way we used to bearcat.

Reasonably dps is one thing, for instance. I can reasonably dps on disc priest or resto shaman.

Bearcat was op (I played it quite deep into heroic content), I could easily beat the average player's dps in cat, that's not the intent going forward. Gladiator will be able to dps in tank spec but with many bonuses and cd's missing.

[Bearshield]

Pre-mop, to the best of my memory, Bears had to fore-go some DPS talents in order to gain their needed survivability, meaning they were lower on DPS than a full cat was. IF specs were not divided, Bear-cats would be insane, having full access to all DPS/tank abilities, on top of being able to freely switch between the 2 in combat.

What do bears and cats have now that they didn't have in Cata? Both specs have less, and as one they would still have less. Neither spec gained anything with the split. We did not gain anything to our survival that we hadn't had before and cats did not gain anything for dps that they did not have before.

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Reasonably dps is one thing, for instance. I can reasonably dps on disc priest or resto shaman.

Bearcat was op (I played it quite deep into heroic content), I could easily beat the average player's dps in cat, that's not the intent going forward. Gladiator will be able to dps in tank spec but with many bonuses and cd's missing.

I also played Bearcat through heroic content and fail to see how it was any more OP than it was in TBC or Wrath. What bonuses and cd's will Glad stance remove from a prot warrior besides shield block?

[Dazzy]

It's funny that people think there was a problem with it in Cata, when it was completely acceptable AND expected during TBC and Wrath. In any event, I never said it was identical, but you cannot argue it is not very similar. I won't deny that Warriors (and all tanks) should have some way to reasonably do damage when not holding aggro on the boss (previously Warriors could dual wield to help with this). My complaint is that an entire spec was gutted for us because it was OP for us to tank and dps with one spec and one set of gear while Blizz is creating just that for another class.

The entire spec was "Separated", not gutted, because on non 100% two tank fights, groups that had a druid off-tank were miles ahead of those that didn't.
And with Blizzards 'bring the player not the class' philosophy, people felt forced to bring a druid to stay competitive. A top 30% druid could easily outdps most of the wow population that is playing a DPS spec, not a tank spec. Does that sound ok? I'm a better player than most, should I be able to outdps most people in a pug with disc? Gladiator tanks will have tank glyphs and core abilities that gladiator dps don't have and vice versa. They won't do anywhere near pure dps numbers (speculating, blizzard doesn't always learn lessons, but they seemed to have on this one).

[Leaky]

Prot warriors need a way to quest as prot while still keeping their prot damage in check during boss encounters.

[Emenius]

Bear cat was op in cata. THis is coming from one of the top bearcats in cata
http://raidbots.com/epeenbot/us/kel'thuzad/emenius/
http://raidbots.com/epeenbot/us/darkspear/emenius/

As much as I hate that it is gone. it just was to hard to balance around.

[Trubo]

The entire spec was "Separated", not gutted, because on non 100% two tank fights, groups that had a druid off-tank were miles ahead of those that didn't.
And with Blizzards 'bring the player not the class' philosophy, people felt forced to bring a druid to stay competitive. A top 30% druid could easily outdps most of the wow population that is playing a DPS spec, not a tank spec. Does that sound ok? I'm a better player than most, should I be able to outdps most people in a pug with disc? Gladiator tanks will have tank glyphs and core abilities that gladiator dps don't have and vice versa. They won't do anywhere near pure dps numbers (speculating, blizzard doesn't always learn lessons, but they seemed to have on this one).

Wrong. The intent of Gladiator Stance is to make Prot a viable dps spec for Warriors, meaning Blizzard intends on it being competitive to Arms and Fury.

But to the op: Bear-Cat is nothing like Gladiator Stance because Bear-Cat could be done on the fly both in and out of combat. A Warrior however will be restricted to either Defensive Stance or Gladiator Stance the second they enter combat and unable to switch until combat ends. From this it's easy to conclude that Gladiator Stance is nothing like Bear-Cat.

[Bryntrollian]

It's funny that people think there was a problem with it in Cata, when it was completely acceptable AND expected during TBC and Wrath. In any event, I never said it was identical, but you cannot argue it is not very similar. I won't deny that Warriors (and all tanks) should have some way to reasonably do damage when not holding aggro on the boss (previously Warriors could dual wield to help with this). My complaint is that an entire spec was gutted for us because it was OP for us to tank and dps with one spec and one set of gear while Blizz is creating just that for another class.

You can keep crying about pve all day but pve wasn't the reason for the nerf, the reason was because in pvp druids did retarded damage all day long, were immune to roots and slows, and then when you actually tried to start fighting them they had all these tank cooldowns and they would never die.

[Arielle]

Ahanss is right. I don't know why this thread continued past that point.

[Bearshield]

You can keep crying about pve all day but pve wasn't the reason for the nerf, the reason was because in pvp druids did retarded damage all day long, were immune to roots and slows, and then when you actually tried to start fighting them they had all these tank cooldowns and they would never die.

Then fix the problem for pvp and leave the rest of us alone.

[Bryntrollian]

Then fix the problem for pvp and leave the rest of us alone.

Problem solved you now have four specs, have a nice day.

[Bearshield]

Ahanss is right. I don't know why this thread continued past that point.

Because people are entitled to their opinion and one person does not decide who is right and who is wrong? I'm sorry, I know I'm not the only one here who has been a Bear since vanilla but you are not going to convince me that what was acceptable through TBC and Wrath was suddenly OP by the end of Cata or that separate Feral and Bear trees are better than one FERAL tree. And while I never once said Bearcat was identical to Glad stance (despite how many took my post that way), there is definitely similarity in the overall design and the only real difference is one can switch in combat while the other cannot.

Had Blizz not killed their talent system for MoP, they could have addressed the issue of Bearcat supposedly being OP without completely splitting the tree but instead what's done is done and no, I don't have to like it.

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Problem solved you now have four specs, have a nice day.

No, problem is not solved.

[Raugnaut]

I'm not ignoring it, I'm saying that nobody had a problem with it before Cata and I do not understand why 3 xpacks later it suddenly was OP. Gutting an entire spec was not an appropriate response.

It wasn't anywhere near as powerful in Cata as it was in WotLK and especially BC. In BC, bear-kats were pretty weak- while they COULD preform, you couldn't have a bear-kat do almost as much damage as, say, a lock, and then swap and tank just as well as a warrior during BC and WotLK. In WotLK, in order to get the essentially bear talents, I had to miss quite a number of the essential cat talents, so I would do about 30% or less then a cat (Also, in WotLK/BC, you had seperate gear for both, with a bit of Defense, stam for bears, and tons of ArP and such for cats for WotLK, ect).

In Cata, the gap between a bear-kat and a true bear/true cat shrunk DRASTICALLY (it was within 10% of both), and both essentially shared the same gear (Agi gemming, Agi enchants, and you could do a crit/mastery build and be good for both).

If bear-catting still existed now, a TON of fights would be trivialized by it. In T14, Garajal's dps timer would have been easier to meet, Elegon would have been easier to do, Garalon, Blade Lord, Amber Shaper's last phase, Protectors, Tsulong, Jin'rohk, Horridon, Council, Tortos, Durumu, Iron Qon, and Lei Shen would all have been easier with Bear-cats on 10 man, and slightly easier on 25 man. Even in the current tier, Galakras, Juggernaut, Malkorok, Siegecrafter, and Garrosh would all be much easier to do with a bear-kat.

Glad-stance simply CAN'T be compared to bear-kat. If anything, think of it as a 4th spec, that instead of switching specs to access, you switch talent/stance to access.

[Ryuda]

Because people are entitled to their opinion and one person does not decide who is right and who is wrong? I'm sorry, I know I'm not the only one here who has been a Bear since vanilla but you are not going to convince me that what was acceptable through TBC and Wrath was suddenly OP by the end of Cata or that separate Feral and Bear trees are better than one FERAL tree. And while I never once said Bearcat was identical to Glad stance (despite how many took my post that way), there is definitely similarity in the overall design and the only real difference is one can switch in combat while the other cannot.

Had Blizz not killed their talent system for MoP, they could have addressed the issue of Bearcat supposedly being OP without completely splitting the tree but instead what's done is done and no, I don't have to like it.

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No, problem is not solved.

Nobody said you have to like it, all people are telling you is that you can't compare it to a talent that is completely different than what you're arguing. Bear-cat was split for both PvP and PvE reasons, it was just impossible to balance around a spec that could switch between DPS and tank for the cost of 1 GCD, in combat. That's not what Glad. Stance does.

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It wasn't anywhere near as powerful in Cata as it was in WotLK and especially BC. In BC, bear-kats were pretty weak- while they COULD preform, you couldn't have a bear-kat do almost as much damage as, say, a lock, and then swap and tank just as well as a warrior during BC and WotLK. In WotLK, in order to get the essentially bear talents, I had to miss quite a number of the essential cat talents, so I would do about 30% or less then a cat (Also, in WotLK/BC, you had seperate gear for both, with a bit of Defense, stam for bears, and tons of ArP and such for cats for WotLK, ect).

In Cata, the gap between a bear-kat and a true bear/true cat shrunk DRASTICALLY (it was within 10% of both), and both essentially shared the same gear (Agi gemming, Agi enchants, and you could do a crit/mastery build and be good for both).

If bear-catting still existed now, a TON of fights would be trivialized by it. In T14, Garajal's dps timer would have been easier to meet, Elegon would have been easier to do, Garalon, Blade Lord, Amber Shaper's last phase, Protectors, Tsulong, Jin'rohk, Horridon, Council, Tortos, Durumu, Iron Qon, and Lei Shen would all have been easier with Bear-cats on 10 man, and slightly easier on 25 man. Even in the current tier, Galakras, Juggernaut, Malkorok, Siegecrafter, and Garrosh would all be much easier to do with a bear-kat.

Glad-stance simply CAN'T be compared to bear-kat. If anything, think of it as a 4th spec, that instead of switching specs to access, you switch talent/stance to access.

couldn't have said it better myself.

[Zamfix]

This will have no use in PvE if you can't swap in or out of the stance in combat. Don't need to tank a particular fight? Good thing it's just PvE so you can stop and switch specs between fights.

[Bryntrollian]

This will have no use in PvE if you can't swap in or out of the stance in combat. Don't need to tank a particular fight? Good thing it's just PvE so you can stop and switch specs between fights.

With this talent you could dps with just 1 set of gear

[Leaky]

Wrong. The intent of Gladiator Stance is to make Prot a viable dps spec for Warriors, meaning Blizzard intends on it being competitive to Arms and Fury.

But to the op: Bear-Cat is nothing like Gladiator Stance because Bear-Cat could be done on the fly both in and out of combat. A Warrior however will be restricted to either Defensive Stance or Gladiator Stance the second they enter combat and unable to switch until combat ends. From this it's easy to conclude that Gladiator Stance is nothing like Bear-Cat.

That doesnt sound right to me, do you have a source for that? I don't see blizz letting Prot be a viable DPS spec for raiding.

[Bearshield]

So you are upset that they don't have to change their gear/glyphs/talents?

No, I really don't care so much what another class gets. I'm unhappy with what they did to Druids and this change for Warriors kinda feels like a slap in the face imo. I have a 90 tank of every class and I've raided with each of them so I completely support the idea of all tanks having some way to reasonably dps when not tanking the boss. But as you said, we did have it better before MoP and we've given up our versatility for nothing in return.

[Aseyhe]

You can play feral with the same gear as guardian. What else do you want that gladiator stance provides? A third spec slot?

[exochaft]

With this talent you could dps with just 1 set of gear

This was pretty much my interpretation of Gladiator Stance with not being able to switch into or out of the stance in combat. While I haven't looked at paladins in this area, prot warriors (compared to monks, DK's, and druids) would have to get an extra weapon to switch rolls going from tank to DPS set. Also, this will give warriors a more offensive ability while soloing/questing.

If anything, it might be too good in challenge modes if the DPS output is really good, since switching stances is faster than respeccing. Maybe it will be overpowered if there are encounters where DPS have to tank adds and a Glad. Stance warrior would cheese the mechanic by having a semi-tank with good DPS output (assuming another plate DPS would have more issues)? Regardless, it can't be anywhere near as powerful as bearcatting was, and Blizz wouldn't willingly go down that road again. HotW is probably a stronger hybrid talent than Glad. Stance will be, anyways.