So Bear-Cat was OP, but Gladiator Stance is acceptable?

[Terminal Lance]

That doesnt sound right to me, do you have a source for that? I don't see blizz letting Prot be a viable DPS spec for raiding.

@MatthewWRossi Correction: When you take the Gladiator's RESOLVE talent, you get 5% DR in Def Stance, for tanking, and the OPTION to...
— Celestalon (@Celestalon) April 4, 2014

@MatthewWRossi ...switch to the Gladiator STANCE to become a DPS, and NOT a Tank.
— Celestalon (@Celestalon) April 4, 2014

@mineeero Confirmed, but you will NOT be able to viably tank in Gladiator Stance. Really.

@DeGeiDragon Because a Guardian Druid in Cat form, or a Blood DK in Frost Presence, are both still really poor DPS. A Gladiator is full DPS.


So according to these 'source', DURING combat, you're either full-on TANK or full-on DPS. Taking this talent and switching to Gladiator stance makes you a GLAD dps not a PROT dps.

Now the only problem I foresee now is when warriors que as tank in LFD or LFR for instant ques but had no intention to in the first place.

[Sandwrong]

No, I really don't care so much what another class gets. I'm unhappy with what they did to Druids and this change for Warriors kinda feels like a slap in the face imo. I have a 90 tank of every class and I've raided with each of them so I completely support the idea of all tanks having some way to reasonably dps when not tanking the boss. But as you said, we did have it better before MoP and we've given up our versatility for nothing in return.

Except... This doesn't really support that. The Warrior cannot switch into glad stance during combat like a Druid could switch into Cat form mid fight. The only thing Glad stance supports, is a Prot warrior that doesn't have an offhand weapon for 1 tank fights.

[Ryuda]

You can play feral with the same gear as guardian. What else do you want that gladiator stance provides? A third spec slot?

This is basically it, Glad. Stance and current Bear/kitty seem closer in comparison:

1)Both could DPS with 1 set of gear, but will likely need 2 sets (or at least partial sets) to be optimal at each.
2) Same holds true for glyphs.
3)Both can only be swapped out of combat.

The only difference is the button they push, one has to swap specs, one has to switch a talent. It's in no way similar to Bear-cats, and is actually closer to what Guardian/Feral druids are like now. A Glad. Stance Warrior will not be able to tank any more than a Feral druid, and a Prot. Stance Glad. Warrior will not be able to DPS any more than a Guardian.

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@MatthewWRossi Correction: When you take the Gladiator's RESOLVE talent, you get 5% DR in Def Stance, for tanking, and the OPTION to...
— Celestalon (@Celestalon) April 4, 2014

@MatthewWRossi ...switch to the Gladiator STANCE to become a DPS, and NOT a Tank.
— Celestalon (@Celestalon) April 4, 2014

@mineeero Confirmed, but you will NOT be able to viably tank in Gladiator Stance. Really.

@DeGeiDragon Because a Guardian Druid in Cat form, or a Blood DK in Frost Presence, are both still really poor DPS. A Gladiator is full DPS.


So according to these 'source', DURING combat, you're either full-on TANK or full-on DPS. Taking this talent and switching to Gladiator stance makes you a GLAD dps not a PROT dps.

Now the only problem I foresee now is when warriors que as tank in LFD or LFR for instant ques but had no intention to in the first place.

No different than a Fury Warrior queuing as a tank with no intention to do so...Most people realize the group can't move ahead without a tank and don't bother with this anymore though (at least in my experience, haven't run LFR in 3 or 4 months though)

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Except... This doesn't really support that. The Warrior cannot switch into glad stance during combat like a Druid could switch into Cat form mid fight. The only thing Glad stance supports, is a Prot warrior that doesn't have an offhand weapon for 1 tank fights.

Exactly, Glad. Stance is a full on DPS "spec", once you enter combat, you're locked into it, you cannot tank a boss with it anymore than a holy pally can tank a boss, so it can't be used "when you're not tanking", it's a choice you make before the fight starts.

[Trubo]

That doesnt sound right to me, do you have a source for that? I don't see blizz letting Prot be a viable DPS spec for raiding.

Correction: Same squishiness as Arms. Same DPS as Arms. (And NOT a tank)

So I was wrong about the Fury part but according to devs they want it as strong as Arms.

[miers27]

I think you guys are forgetting something.
With main armor pieces changing primary stat (Agi/Int/STR) and one tier set that changes based on spec, literally every hybrid will be able to do 2 specs with one set of gear.
The only thing they'd have to change would be weapons, rings, trinkets and cloaks; the same as prot warriors wishing to utilize gladiator stance.

OP's concerns are unfounded as the thing he's complaining about is being given to literally everyone.

[Bearshield]

I
OP's concerns are unfounded as the thing he's complaining about is being given to literally everyone.

I'm complaining because the class I used to enjoy playing was gutted to appease the masses and now they are giving something that is similar to our previous versatility to another class while we get nothing. No, it's not exactly the same, but neither is the argument that we can do 2 specs with one set of gear.

[miers27]

I'm complaining because the class I used to enjoy playing was gutted to appease the masses and now they are giving something that is similar to our previous versatility to another class while we get nothing. No, it's not exactly the same, but neither is the argument that we can do 2 specs with one set of gear.

then what are you arguing? Didn't you just say it was that warriors would be able to do it using one gear set?

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Because you can also out of combat to feral dps with the same gear set just as easy, it simply takes a 3s cast and voila vs an instant stance change.

Basically, you're complaining about the three seconds you'll lose vs being able to do it instantly.
Whine more, please.

[Bearshield]

then what are you arguing? Didn't you just say it was that warriors would be able to do it using one gear set?

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Because you can also out of combat to feral dps with the same gear set just as easy, it simply takes a 3s cast and voila vs an instant stance change.

Basically, you're complaining about the three seconds you'll lose vs being able to do it instantly.
Whine more, please.

Only on a WoW forum is expressing an opinion "whining"... It's the principle. An entire spec was completely altered because people complained about a mechanic that had been in the game and used for years and now they are adding a talent to another class that is similar. No it is not the same, it is most definitely similar. You suggest that I respec to another spec completely if I want to dps, why is that not a good enough option for Warriors?

Like I said, it's not that Warriors are getting a new toy that bothers me (though I should point out we are getting nothing and NO, getting an ability back that was taken away does not count), it's that we lost a part of our class and gained nothing while now another class is getting something similar.

[Arielle]

it is most definitely similar

No, no it's really not.

[Bearshield]

No, no it's really not.

Ok example: If I go solo an old raid as Guardian, if I want to do anything worthwhile as a cat, I will switch to Feral. If I go in as Feral and need more survivability, I switch to Guardian. Either way, it's a change of spec which should my guild ask me to do something else with my offspec, means a full paid respec. If I want to do the same on my Warrior with the new talents, I can simply stance dance through the instance as needed, the same way I would have done 2 years ago with the old Feral. The same holds true for questing. There is only one thing that separates Bearcat from this new talent, the ability to switch during combat. The so-called issues with bear cat could have been addressed through talents had they not killed their talent system as well but yes, the Warrior talent most definitely is similar.

[Arielle]

means a full paid respec.

Dual-spec?

The same holds true for questing. There is only one thing that separates Bearcat from this new talent, the ability to switch during combat.

Has anyone confirmed whether Gladiator stance will use Prot gear? I don't see how they wouldn't have to at least swap non-armor pieces (jewlery, weapon) to ones that have DPS appropriate procs and/or do not have armor on them.

The so-called issues with bear cat could have been addressed through talents had they not killed their talent system as well but yes, the Warrior talent most definitely is similar.

This really depends on how far you stretch the word "similar". Objectively they are not similar at all. Gear, multi-role effectiveness in combat, and shifting vs glyph are all vastly different.

Are they similar in the sense that they managed to use the same specialization for two different roles? Sure. What's the practical difference between the two? You save yourself a cast bar and a gear swap?

[morislayer]

Ok example: If I go solo an old raid as Guardian, if I want to do anything worthwhile as a cat, I will switch to Feral. If I go in as Feral and need more survivability, I switch to Guardian. Either way, it's a change of spec which should my guild ask me to do something else with my offspec, means a full paid respec. If I want to do the same on my Warrior with the new talents, I can simply stance dance through the instance as needed, the same way I would have done 2 years ago with the old Feral. The same holds true for questing. There is only one thing that separates Bearcat from this new talent, the ability to switch during combat. The so-called issues with bear cat could have been addressed through talents had they not killed their talent system as well but yes, the Warrior talent most definitely is similar.

AS a former TBC Feral Druid I think what your issue with this talent is that it costs one reagent to switch between dps/tank while having a second dps (arms or fury) all with similar gear. From that stand point I agree with you, they should have gone this route in lieu of adding a 4th guardian spec for druids as for example made my resto / feral (tank or dps) spec less of an option.

Wait and see imo. Is this goes live then this should be streamlined to all tanks. Paladins get prot dps, blood get dps and feral gets back a bear type dps. This "talent" or "glyph" would be the cat's meow to solo-ing old raids and farming for any prot / healer hybrids (like druids and paladins)

Personally I think there are testing this system to see if it works. If just warriors get this live then it would be quite a shame to waste such a good idea on a class that has the ability to go from dps / tank using dual talent system currently in place.

[Aseyhe]

Or better, just get rid of the dual spec system, let us change specialization freely, and save action bars, talents, and glyphs by specialization. The biggest barrier to changing spec (aside from gear) is not the gold cost but the time it takes to make sure you've gotten all the keybinds, glyphs, and talents right -- and there's no reason why that should be a barrier.

[Cyclonus-WOW]

Hey guys. Don't forget the tank gear is going to need armor on it. which is ilvl spent on mitigation, making them subpar in gladstance.
Also remember a gladstance warrior currently doesn't get the benefit of uber executes like arms/fury do.

[Fugus]

Haven't played the newer WoW expansion but this is complete bullshit. With warriors getting this, what the hell is the point of dual spec?

Also, if they are willing to do this, they honestly had no point in dividing feral spec into 2 trees. They could have just had it baked into the 1st talent tree you get at level (I think) 15 which you can change at will but not in combat that way they could only choose it out of combat.

If Warriors get this crap, Bear spec needs to get a new shape shift that he can only go into an out of when out of combat. Would say Worgen form but it is already taken and the Druid of the Fang snakes seems a bit too caster. Screw it, give them a Worgen shapeshift with different graphics.

As an old school feral, this is a slap in the face really. Even if it isn't the same as Feral spec used to be, it is pretty close.

FYI, I played as a TBC feral where we could do most in a similar spec but still needed different sets of gear. Even in WotLK we needed 2 sets of gear to do it right and dual spec to get the talents we needed.

This removes the entire point of dual spec and should not be viable for PvE AT ALL or it should be given to Guardian druids, Prot Paladins, and Death Knights and make all tanking specs viable DPS......

[Raugnaut]

Also, if they are willing to do this, they honestly had no point in dividing feral spec into 2 trees. They could have just had it baked into the 1st talent tree you get at level (I think) 15 which you can change at will but not in combat that way they could only choose it out of combat.

Making to where you could ONLY bear OR cat during combat would be HORRIBLE for feral AND guardian. While we aren't as versatile in cat/bear form as we were in cata, HotW allows us to burn a boss in cat form with some good damage for a little bit once or so a fight, should we so wish. (I used to use it on Gara'jal during progression, as well as Spirit Kings and a few other fights where you didn't need a second tank at the start but would need one later)

As stated MANY times before in this thread, Glad Stance and the old Bear-katting can NOT be compared to each other. Just imagine that its an entire 4th spec that you don't need to stand still for 3 seconds to swap to.
Although, honestly, it probs would have been the best to have just made it a 4th spec instead of this talent thing. Seriously, blizz needs to just give 4th specs to a couple of classes and call it a day.

[Fugus]

Making to where you could ONLY bear OR cat during combat would be HORRIBLE for feral AND guardian. While we aren't as versatile in cat/bear form as we were in cata, HotW allows us to burn a boss in cat form with some good damage for a little bit once or so a fight, should we so wish. (I used to use it on Gara'jal during progression, as well as Spirit Kings and a few other fights where you didn't need a second tank at the start but would need one later)

As stated MANY times before in this thread, Glad Stance and the old Bear-katting can NOT be compared to each other. Just imagine that its an entire 4th spec that you don't need to stand still for 3 seconds to swap to.
Although, honestly, it probs would have been the best to have just made it a 4th spec instead of this talent thing. Seriously, blizz needs to just give 4th specs to a couple of classes and call it a day.

Never said limiting the shape shifts while in combat.

What I meant was keeping feral a single tree and have it dedicated to either Cat or Bear and then at level 15 when you got your first talent you can choose, one of them turns it into the other.

For instance, Feral is default Kitty DPS, it still has bear form and all its abilities, but it has crap mitigation but so-so damage as DPS spec, the talent guts your DPS output but instead boosts your survivability and gives your bear form added threat. Or have it go the other way.

See, feral is still a single spec but can only change between tank or DPS while out of combat and it actually turns Feral Bear into something similar to an arms warrior while in DPS setup.


And Glad stance and the old Bear-Katting can not be 100% compared to each other, but they are similar and to say otherwise is just deluding yourself unless you honestly never played during that time and just don't know.

[Bullettime]

The problem is that you're then forcing Druids to have to take that talent in order to have a tanking spec.

[Fugus]

The problem is that you're then forcing Druids to have to take that talent in order to have a tanking spec.

That was something they could have done during the MoP expansion instead of splitting cat and bear up.

Next expansion when they redo it, they could just give guardian a new form that they can't do in combat.

Then we get Restoration spec, Balance DPS, Cat DPS, and Guardian <insert new form here> DPS spec and Guardian Tank. And before you say that is too much. Remember that warriors will now have Arms DPS, Fury DPS, Prot Tank and Prot DPS. 2 of them in the exact same spec.

Edit: Wonder how many would just stick to the new one since they can tank and DPS in a single role for the warriors without even having to change specs or gearing.

And the talent in order to tank is still better than splitting the trees up entirely.

[Trubo]

Never said limiting the shape shifts while in combat.

What I meant was keeping feral a single tree and have it dedicated to either Cat or Bear and then at level 15 when you got your first talent you can choose, one of them turns it into the other.

For instance, Feral is default Kitty DPS, it still has bear form and all its abilities, but it has crap mitigation but so-so damage as DPS spec, the talent guts your DPS output but instead boosts your survivability and gives your bear form added threat. Or have it go the other way.

See, feral is still a single spec but can only change between tank or DPS while out of combat and it actually turns Feral Bear into something similar to an arms warrior while in DPS setup.

What you described sounds far more complicated than the Talent option they're giving Warriors to do what amounts to the Cata Feral split into MoP's Guardian and Feral specs. Why would Blizzard bother recoding all of the changes they've made to get what's essentially the same thing as what currently exists?

And Glad stance and the old Bear-Katting can not be 100% compared to each other, but they are similar and to say otherwise is just deluding yourself unless you honestly never played during that time and just don't know.

No, they aren't similar at all solely because of the fact that you can not switch on the fly from tanking to dps during combat. All Gladiator Stance does for a Protection Warrior is save them the 3-5 seconds of switching specs and gear to become a damage dealer that doesn't have the important personal and raid cooldowns of Arms and Fury. This is different from old Cat-Bear where you had all of the important tools for both forms and could use them as you wanted when you wanted.

Gladiator Stance is more similar to WotLK's talent trees for DKs in that each spec had a viable tank and dps option but not a good mix of the two.