Finland drafting legislation to ban cosmetic and religious circumcision.

[Sunseeker]

Nobody is really complaining about any of that, so it's irrelevant.

Really because I thought half this topic was about "letting the child decide" and "what if they feel bad"?

[Wells]

What are you on about? yes you can.

My cynicism is a fundamental part of how I was raised and I can't change that. So is my introversion.

The way we raise, teach and train our children is permanent. I don't see how something your parents do to you as a child being permanent is very important.

[Destruktion]

I know. I was just taking issue with the fact that you said children always have bodily autonomy when that isn't true at all. If they disagree, and the issue doesnt have clear cut benefits i can see where theres a murkyness and in that situation Id agree with being cautios and waiting for him to get older, but a kid cant just say "I dont want my arm cut off" if the parent realizes if they dont have the arm cut off, the gangrene will kill him.

I guess bodily autonomy isn't the right phrase then. I'm just looking for a phrase that emphasizes the right of children to choose how their body is without parental involvement for religious/cultural reasons.

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Really because I thought half this topic was about "letting the child decide" and "what if they feel bad"?

About circumcision, yes.

[Wells]

That is not a justification, we can account for this one.
It is not the parents choice.

This is like claiming abortion isn't safe while including when its done with a coat hook. You have to account for blatantly ill performed procedures if you're going to claim its a great scourge.

Sure, I'm fine with that. But for the sake of completion, if we take the definition of mutilation/disfigurement to be the process of moving something away from the state of perfection, and if we consider the definition of perfection to be a state of completeness, then we can easily say that removing the foreskin is mutilation.

Its not mutilation. That's a word with a definition and I won't agree to change it so it can line up with the rhetoric.

[Kurioxan]

I believe I know what Wells is talking about.

It basically comes down to, "If you're going to circumcise your kid, and you don't want fucked up side effects, do it in a hospital with a medical doctor who actually knows what the fuck he's doing. Oh, and don't let anyone put their mouth on your baby's penis and suck the blood out."

*twitch*

I'm fairly certain well over half of that number came from that particular issue.

No, the numbers come from Hospital neonatal deaths from circumcision done by doctors.
Even if it is "only" half of that, it is still too many deaths a year for no reason at all.

[Vokal]

I believe I know what Wells is talking about.

You would be one of the few who does as far as this thread goes.

Finland certainly doesn't.

Soon the rest of the first world will follow suit.

[Deleted]

My cynicism is a fundamental part of how I was raised and I can't change that. So is my introversion.

The way we raise, teach and train our children is permanent. I don't see how something your parents do to you as a child being permanent is very important.

I used to be extroverted as a kid. I'm not now. Now what?

[THE Bigzoman]

I think Im the outlier here. You and this other gal are more into the uncut, i like the cut. So I dont think attractiveness should even be an argument. >.>

If my life's misadventures bring me to Texas and I run into a girl who thinks the most sensitive part of Mr Bubbles is gross...

Mr Bubbles has helped me through some rough times! How Dare you!

[TirielWoW]

You would be one of the few who does as far as this thread goes.

Finland certainly doesn't.

Soon the rest of the first world will follow suit.

I'm not really concerned about it. Finland can do whatever it wants. I don't see this ever happening in the US, though, because of the backlash if the government tries to regulate religious practices. I could see them requiring it to be done in a hospital setting (which I personally think is the only place it should happen), and I could see them outlawing the particular variant I was talking about, but I can't see them banning it completely.

[Kurioxan]

This is like claiming abortion isn't safe while including when its done with a coat hook. You have to account for blatantly ill performed procedures if you're going to claim its a great scourge.

No is claiming it to be great scourge, you should read your own link.
A woman doing an abortion with a coat hanger and dying from it, is not comparable.
Doing it was her own choice, it is completely beside the point as a child has no choice in the matter and yet it carries a risk for their own health.
Deaths are not the only possible result, there are plenty of complications, both physical and mental.

[Destruktion]

My cynicism is a fundamental part of how I was raised and I can't change that. So is my introversion.

The way we raise, teach and train our children is permanent. I don't see how something your parents do to you as a child being permanent is very important.

You can train yourself not to be a cynic. Arguably introversion is a trait more left up to nature than nurture.
You can change your religion, you can stop being racist, you can choose to do hard drugs, you can choose not to attend university, etc. etc.
You cannot regrow a foreskin.

[Crissi]

If my life's misadventures bring me to Texas and I run into a girl who thinks the most sensitive part of Mr Bubbles is gross...

Mr Bubbles has helped me through some rough times! How Dare you!

Lol sorry! I have my preferences, but I can break them if the dude is awesome enough. Just dont ever force me to touch your testicles, or I will kill you

[TirielWoW]

If my life's misadventures bring me to Texas and I run into a girl who thinks the most sensitive part of Mr Bubbles is gross...

Mr Bubbles has helped me through some rough times! How Dare you!

Not everyone is required to like Mr. Bubbles, sir. :-P

[Mnevis]

Its not mutilation. That's a word with a definition and I won't agree to change it so it can line up with the rhetoric.

In every way that's not completely up to the whim of the observer, it fits the definition.

It alters the natural form, removes part(s), deprives the person of that part and its function. It certainly injures, as in causes pain to, the child; a quick trip to YouTube would verify that if there's any doubt.

[Kaleredar]

You would be one of the few who does as far as this thread goes.

Finland certainly doesn't.

Soon the rest of the first world will follow suit.

Yes, the world has always looked historically to Finland for leadership...

[jugzilla]

If only I had a decision to make. When I asked my parents about their reasoning for my circumcision (and told them I was unhappy they'd done it), aesthetics did not come up. But it is a justification you hear a lot.

Why would you even ask your parents about this, and tell them you WEREN'T HAPPY about it. You just trying to make them feel really bad or something?

It was, and is, medicine. This girl really wrecked your head man.

[Sunseeker]

Deaths are not the only possible result, there are plenty of complications, both physical and mental.

Wait are we talking about circumcision or abortion?

[Kurioxan]

My cynicism is a fundamental part of how I was raised and I can't change that. So is my introversion.

The way we raise, teach and train our children is permanent. I don't see how something your parents do to you as a child being permanent is very important.

It is not permanent at all, do not base your own personal experience and lack of desire or willpower to overcome your own characteristics that you decided to assign blame in your parents methods of raising you, with the rest of the population.

[THE Bigzoman]

I guess bodily autonomy isn't the right phrase then. I'm just looking for a phrase that emphasizes the right of children to choose how their body is without parental involvement for religious/cultural reasons.

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About circumcision, yes.

I think sexual autonomy is more important. Parents don't have the right to take away a means of biological pleasure without proper consent under religious pretenses.

And this is coming from someone who studies the bible personally for his own spirituality and despises churches and missionaries.

[Kaleredar]

In every way that's not completely up to the whim of the observer, it fits the definition.

It alters the natural form, removes part(s), deprives the person of that part and its function.

So a person removing their child's appendix as a precaution is mutilation, no?

It certainly injures, as in causes pain to, the child; a quick trip to YouTube would verify that if there's any doubt.

Being born is pretty painful to children too.