Any Math Regarding Resto Force of Nature?

[Exinium]

I looked for quite awhile this morning for anything about Force of Nature, but was unable to find anything. I suspect it's comparable to the other talents in the tree, but from some of what I was reading, it was under-performing. This seems like a fun talent to have, and if it doesn't impact my performance too much, I'd love to take it.

Questions (Assume a 10 man encounter):

Do they snapshot? If so, is it better to start saving them up when a trinket is approaching ICD?
Which haste breakpoints affect them?
If I phase in a Norushen encounter or Garrosh encounter, will they all die or phase with me?
Since they don't do periodic damage, they don't benefit from mastery. Does this make Crit a more valuable stat (since it's slightly below mastery as it stands.)
Can they proc trinkets?

Correct me if I'm wrong:

The best way to use the trees is to constantly maintain two stacks and keep the third on cooldown to prevent from sitting on 3 stacks, while still maintaining proper uptime on 1 tree, while still having the ability to burst heal by blowing the other two or three at once.

[Keiyra]

I suspect it's comparable to the other talents in the tree, but from some of what I was reading, it was under-performing.

Correct. They put out a fair amount of passive smart healing that in pure numbers is not too behind the other 2 talents, but without as much control or options as the other 2 options. (although i remember it being close with the 75% haste SoTF--when that changed to 100%, that may have left FoN further behind--its been a while heh)

As for the other questions, I honestly don't know.
Regarding haste, I experimented back in 5.3 and found that with the 5% raid haste buff, they gained an extra cast at around 4k haste. Given a duration of 15 secs and a base case time of 2.5 sec - math says it should be about 4724 haste before they get an extra cast but through trial and error i think i narrowed it down to somewhere between 3900 and 4000 haste rating (+5% raid haste buff) is when they actually get their first extra cast (should be 7 healing touches versus the 6 default)

I'll try em out this wed and see if they transition on norushen/garrosh and see if i can test other stuff.

The best way to use the trees is to constantly maintain two stacks and keep the third on cooldown to prevent from sitting on 3 stacks, while still maintaining proper uptime on 1 tree, while still having the ability to burst heal by blowing the other two or three at once.

Yup that's pretty much the best way to use em, keep 1 tree up, while still being able to burst 3 when u need to.

[Asrialol]

I'd never, ever drop SoTF. Absolutely love it. Tree of Life, not so much. I really want to like FoN, and have in a few Flex runs etc, but I always end up going back to SotF. It's pretty much always useful to have a hasted WG on the raid, or LB / Rejuv on the tank.

Also, who doesn't love a hasted Tranq at the start of Malk? Always fun.


Also, you could very well perform better with this talent than the others, if you enjoy it. People tend to play the best when they play the talents they enjoy rather than the "optimal" ones.

[Exinium]

I'd never, ever drop SoTF. Absolutely love it. Tree of Life, not so much. I really want to like FoN, and have in a few Flex runs etc, but I always end up going back to SotF. It's pretty much always useful to have a hasted WG on the raid, or LB / Rejuv on the tank.

Also, who doesn't love a hasted Tranq at the start of Malk? Always fun.


Also, you could very well perform better with this talent than the others, if you enjoy it. People tend to play the best when they play the talents they enjoy rather than the "optimal" ones.

SotF is another option. I like my talents to play a more active role in my healing, and as a result, I don't like to take talents like Tree of Life where I'll get 2-3 casts a fight. I respect that on some fights, a throughput cooldown is incredibly useful, but a healer pulling 150k hps with small burst and a healer pulling 100k hps with large burst is tons more effective than two healers with small burst but large throughput or two healers with large burst but small throughput, at least in regards to mana.

Speaking of mana, another big factor in all of this is mana efficiency. I believe that with FoN, I'll be able to significantly cut the amount of spirit I have on my gear, gemmed or even just latent spirit. I'll gain quite a degree of mana free healing with Clearcasting, T16 2pc, Efflorenceshrooms, and Force of Nature itself.

[Keiyra]

@Exinium, did some quick testing for FoN Resto:

1) Their heals do not scale with mastery (was assumed but wanted to confirm)

2) Their heals do NOT proc trinkets or jade spirit or the legendary cloak.

3) They do update dynamically with intellect, but its delayed by 3-4 secs (works just like the boomkin version). So if you proc an int buff, their heals will go up, but only after 3-4 secs, and likewise they will keep an int buff 3-4 secs after it drops. (I believe it works the same for short term haste buffs ala windsong - but did not test so cant confirm)

4a) I do not think they gain your crit chance for the healing touch casts. Seemed to only be like a base 5% crit chance (they may benefit from the 5% raid crit buff but I didn't get a chance to test that.)

4b) Interestingly the efllo ticks DO work off your crit chance (the difference in crit rate was very noticeable).

Some food for thought there.

[napalm007]

From what I remember when I used to run FoN, they seemed to do a consistent 4-5% of my total healing on most fights with their biggest contribution coming from their HT. They do gain extra HT casts at various breakpoints, but it's not worth going over the 3043/13163 haste cap just to reach them. The most surprising thing about them is the fact that their HT casts do very little overhealing, which makes me believe that the target healed may be chosen as their cast time finishes and not when their cast time starts (never confirmed this).

Overall, I found them to be stronger than they appear on paper and even viable on fights where WG healing is on the low side (if you use SotF). The only annoying thing about them is the fact that there are always 2-4 efflos on the ground at any given time. This could cause problems if people accidentally stand in the wrong one since their efflos heal for practically nothing compared to yours.

[ryklin]

the efflo from treants are considered to be coming from your char, so they proc cleave and multi-strike, overheals w/ cloak, etc., but this is a miserably small amount of healing anyways

their best use is for picking up individual spike/single target damage, so basically, sha of pride, nazgrim, maybe spoils (but I prefer sotf there) maybe good for healing up specific low hp targets if your group is poorly suited to smart/spot heals in the middle of aoe healing (or for when their cooldown caters well to certain mechanics, like garrosh whirls, assuming you're not eating desecrates), as far as I can tell their strongest use is helping top people off before swelling pride hits

they fall behind pretty far off in comparison to the other 2 in potential healing done, but pull pretty close in an actual raid environment with overhealing or where you won't always be able to pull off sotf because you may need to do something else right then (also sotf only really does as well as it does on paper in a 0 lag environment where you can perfectly use moves on cd and such, but is still better than the others for constant damage)

edit: I also used treants on H shamans progression (solo healing harromm on prog, because my guild is sux and couldn't make enrage like everybody else's, and their smart heals were great for catching up) and their adaptive smart healing shouldn't be underestimated and can still make nice life saves, even if you won't do as well on meters

I'm also considering them working on 25 klaxxi now because you tend to lose 1 person at a time to stupid shit (usually them standing in shit) and that might be the extra throughput needed to get them alive and out w/e they were standing in faster

[Exinium]

Anyone have a FoN weakaura? Mine doesn't seem to want to work, and will only display the cooldown progress if all three trees are out or on cooldown at the same time. I'm going to give it a shot this week in our guild's raids. Worst comes to worst, it'll wipe us (wouldn't be the first time) and I'll change it.

[Bzl]

Anyone have a FoN weakaura? Mine doesn't seem to want to work, and will only display the cooldown progress if all three trees are out or on cooldown at the same time. I'm going to give it a shot this week in our guild's raids. Worst comes to worst, it'll wipe us (wouldn't be the first time) and I'll change it.

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[Deleted]

Would FoN be any good for healing cmodes or the tree / sotf are ahead?

[Tricksterjim]

FON has its place. Everyone above has given good advise. The only thing I will add is it is a skill thing too. FON is FREE and a smart heal. So even if you are just blowing all three randomly they are still doing decent heals. SO for an unskilled healer, FoN will be as good if not better than the other two options. As a healers skill improves and ability to use CDs properly, the other two gain power.

When I was lazy in LFR I liked FoN because they alone with my LB and random rejuves would out heal some other healers.

[lazerdollarz]

I'd never run anything other than ToL for CMs, it's such a powerful tool for the way the damage comes out in that setting to be matched by either of the other talents. FoN is the best talent for healing PGs though for sure since they're free.

[Deleted]

It is kinda rare i heal any kind of challenging content but i tend to switch around with all 3 of the talents i take ToL on fights where a strong cd is needed like on Thok where it could fit into a healing cd rotation. FoN was awesome on fights like Horridon where you have big damage once in a while when you get to a certain point each gate SoF i take on sustained damage fights like Norrushen.

[Lavathing]

Force of Nature was much better early in this tier and in post-5.3 ToT. However, since the 13k haste breakpoint is so easily available in SoO gear, SotF outshines the other two talents by a mile. While still at the 3043 haste breakpoint, with low spirit, FoN has some great uses on fights where their efflo will be of high value (3-4 people standing in it, depending on your tier set).

All-in-all, once you are well geared SotF will almost always be better. However, when you're undergeared with low regen and haste, FoN is competitive.

[Hildrande]

One month necro, please forgive me :-P

What I've noticed about the treants is that they typically overheal very little, often under 20%. You can concentrate the healing in a 20-second window and it's on a one minute cooldown. This timing is suitable for many fights. It would be interesting to see the math on FoN throughput.

[Tower]

I think you have to consider the fight and then chose your talent accordingly. SoTF would probably be the go to option but there is certainly fights where FoN would shine or incarnation would do well. On my resto druid alt I use FoN just because he is undergeared and they do a lot of smart healing and additional aoe heals for no mana cost. The other bonus is that they cast a swiftmend when first used regardless if you have a hot on the target or not.

I used them to level up in dungeons and you can basically just let your treants do all the work and keep a lifebloom up while you dps. Of course I leveled up with a great tank to so that certainly helped lol...

[Deleted]

The best use for FoN is when you raid 10 man without an absorb healer. They make spike damage easier to manage and while they do no provide the same throughput as other talents they are still amazing. I used it on 10 man hc siegcrafter. Since on 10 man you often have to move out to kite stuff or heal someone far away its nice to put down 3 trees and know that the raid will be fine, even thought you will not be in rage to heal them. I also used it on 10 man paragons. When without an absorb healer it saves lives, specially at the start when parasites attack people. Spike damage is really high. With an absorb healer I found them not as good, and used SoTF. And ofc they look amazing. I just love spamming trees all over the raid such a cool spell.