Something I don't get about PvP in Legion

[Deleted]

If the gear is only transformed to a +ilevel thing, how is PvP gear gonna look like? Is it going to be generic stuff like "pvp trinket #1 with ilevel 780" or something?

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Gear is just gear. So it'll be regular gear with appropriate stats for the ilvl in case you want to gear by PvP and then use that for world content or something. It's just that in PvP content the stats will be irrelevant.

[Deleted]

Gear is just gear. So it'll be regular gear with appropriate stats for the ilvl in case you want to gear by PvP and then use that for world content or something. It's just that in PvP content the stats will be irrelevant.

Hrm. Generic PvE stats maybe worse for raiding. Yeah, it might be something like that.

[Cempa]

Gear will matter just less BUT in Legion PvP gear will come with higher MMR ... Meaning boosting services are going to get SUPER RICH!

Right now on live you can get the same best gear casually just longer time to do so over higher MMR players ... Come Legion YOU NEED MMR or forget it..

So...

Casual players who DON'T pay for boosts have ZERO gear progression...

Either completely eliminate gear progression for PvP OR make available a way for casual players to earn all best PvP gear before season ends ...

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Gear will matter just less BUT in Legion PvP gear will come with higher MMR ... Meaning boosting services are going to get SUPER RICH!

Right now on live you can get the same best gear casually just longer time to do so over higher MMR players ... Come Legion YOU NEED MMR or forget it..

So...

Casual players who DON'T pay for boosts have ZERO gear progression...

Either completely eliminate gear progression for PvP OR make available a way for casual players to earn all best PvP gear before season ends ...

But why would a casual player bother paying for a boost if it gives such a small improvement? They're at no disadvantage really, their skill level is the only thing holding them back from gear progression surely?

[killwithpwr]

Probably the same as PvE gear but from a different source?

[Volitar]

PVE'ers who pvp are just gonna have an 'Ilevel' set. Any random garbage piece that is mythic warforge = pvp gold.

[Mafic]

PVE'ers who pvp are just gonna have an 'Ilevel' set. Any random garbage piece that is mythic warforge = pvp gold.

Yeah gear is still going to matter. Not sure why people are falling for Blizz's hype.

[ellieg]

Yeah gear is still going to matter. Not sure why people are falling for Blizz's hype.

Exactly. This is a super disguised way of saying "pve gear is better in pvp than the gear u get from pvp"
Its the exact system they have been trying to fix.

Also
"•In PvP instances, you use a stat template for your class and spec, all of your gear is nullified other than the Artifact."

Does that mean we are going back to open world MoP style of pve heroes wrecking everyone else?

[Deleted]

But why would a casual player bother paying for a boost if it gives such a small improvement? They're at no disadvantage really, their skill level is the only thing holding them back from gear progression surely?

maybe you're raiding and want that top of the scale mythic ilvl weapon for progression, but you either don't have the time or the skill to grind all the way to high ranks by yourself, so you pay a couple gladiators to take you there.

[ellieg]

maybe you're raiding and want that top of the scale mythic ilvl weapon for progression, but you either don't have the time or the skill to grind all the way to high ranks by yourself, so you pay a couple gladiators to take you there.

Im more worried about the opposite. Pvpers paying guilds to run them through mythic. Lets say 2.7k is the minimum gladiator ranking. Everyone above that will have mythic gear and thus have 2-3% more stats than you and you will be effectively locked out from that rating because you don't pve.

My favorite is people saying that 2-3% stats don't matter but they are the same people with enchants on their gear and gems in their sockets.

[Deleted]

They way I understand it is that the epic PvP gear will be harder to get again (tied to higher ratings) as opposed to now where you can basically get everything from time investment. The more casual PvP players will probably only be able to get the blue set again.

Just making up numbers, but I think it will be something like this, you get:
- green PvP set from random BGs/honor at something like ilvl 820
- blue PvP set from random BGs/honor at something like ilvl 840
- epic PvP set that you get with some rating in arena/RGBs (like ~1700-1800) at something like ilvl 855
- epic PvP set that you get with higher rating in arena/RGBs (like ~2000-2200) at something like ilvl 870
- epic PvP set that you get with highest rating in arena/RGBs (like 2400+) at something like ilvl 885
- blue PvE set from heroic dungeons at something like ilvl 830
- epic PvE set from LFR raids at something like ivl 840
- epic PvE set from normal raids at something like ilvl 855
- epic PvE set from heroic raids at something like ilvl 870
- epic PvE set from mythic raids at something like ilvl 885

I suppose that the set you get from "casual PvP" will be the equivalent to what you get from LFR raids because both can be completed quite easily over the Raid/BG finder with basically only time investment.

The difference in performance as Blizz stated will in that case be something like 4-5% between the casual/easy-to-get set and the best possible set that only the most advanced raiders/PvP'ers get.

And yes, that means that hardcore raiders will have an advantage in PvP over the "average" PvP player, but it will only be like 2-3%.

[Mafic]

It is going to be higher than 2 or 3% when all is said and done. They have to prove they can control their crazy ilevel scaling which they have yet to do despite one round of number squishing.

[ellieg]

They way I understand it is that the epic PvP gear will be harder to get again (tied to higher ratings) as opposed to now where you can basically get everything from time investment. The more casual PvP players will probably only be able to get the blue set again.

Just making up numbers, but I think it will be something like this, you get:
- green PvP set from random BGs/honor at something like ilvl 820
- blue PvP set from random BGs/honor at something like ilvl 840
- epic PvP set that you get with some rating in arena/RGBs (like ~1700-1800) at something like ilvl 855
- epic PvP set that you get with higher rating in arena/RGBs (like ~2000-2200) at something like ilvl 870
- epic PvP set that you get with highest rating in arena/RGBs (like 2400+) at something like ilvl 885
- blue PvE set from heroic dungeons at something like ilvl 830
- epic PvE set from LFR raids at something like ivl 840
- epic PvE set from normal raids at something like ilvl 855
- epic PvE set from heroic raids at something like ilvl 870
- epic PvE set from mythic raids at something like ilvl 885

I suppose that the set you get from "casual PvP" will be the equivalent to what you get from LFR raids because both can be completed quite easily over the Raid/BG finder with basically only time investment.

The difference in performance as Blizz stated will in that case be something like 4-5% between the casual/easy-to-get set and the best possible set that only the most advanced raiders/PvP'ers get.

And yes, that means that hardcore raiders will have an advantage in PvP over the "average" PvP player, but it will only be like 2-3%.

Im of the opinion that they wont give "highest rating in arena/RGBs (like 2400+)" players an ilvl of gear equal to mythic. Pvers will get so much sand in their vagina over that. If the gear from pvp mirrors the exact ilvl of gear from pve, I guess I wont be too opposed to it. I just don't see it happening.

[Hoover Hog]

It is going to be higher than 2 or 3% when all is said and done. They have to prove they can control their crazy ilevel scaling which they have yet to do despite one round of number squishing.

That's not how the number squish worked. The squish didn't affect item levels at all, just the amount of stats that a specific item level provides. You don't ever have to squish item level because it scales linearly not exponentially. Every expansion releases with a new baseline of max level gear. Every tier released during that expansion increases the max attainable item level by like 35 and increases the easily attainable item level by the same amount.

In short, there is no scaling problem because item level is linear and there is no gap issue because bottom rung and top rung increase at the same rate.

- - - Updated - - -

Im of the opinion that they wont give "highest rating in arena/RGBs (like 2400+)" players an ilvl of gear equal to mythic. Pvers will get so much sand in their vagina over that. If the gear from pvp mirrors the exact ilvl of gear from pve, I guess I wont be too opposed to it. I just don't see it happening.

Probably the easiest solution is to let mythic raiders have their warforged gear for the extra item levels it provides and cap the PvP instance item level calculations at the highest attainable PvP gear item level. Surely top rated PvPers aren't worried that they would lose to raiders with even levels of gear.

[ellieg]

That's not how the number squish worked. The squish didn't affect item levels at all, just the amount of stats that a specific item level provides. You don't ever have to squish item level because it scales linearly not exponentially. Every expansions releases with a new baseline of max level gear. Every tier released during that expansion increases the attainable item level by like 35 and increases the easily attainable item level by the same amount.

In short, there is no scaling problem because item level is linear and there is no gap issue because bottom rung and top rung increase at the same rate.

Not entirely true about the scaling though. The number of stats may go up linearly with item lvl, but the power they give the player doesn't. Stats interact with each other. If one tier I have 20% crit and 20% mastery, and the next I have 30% crit and 30% mastery, My damage is going to go up exponentially, not linearly.

- - - Updated - - -

Probably the easiest solution is to let mythic raiders have their warforged gear for the extra item levels it provides and cap the PvP instance item level calculations at the highest attainable PvP gear item level. Surely top rated PvPers aren't worried that they would lose to raiders with even levels of gear.

Im 100% fine with equal. I just want to avoid any situation where a pvper should have to pve to get the best gear. If pve gear is better than gear u get from pvp, you will see the top of the ladders dominated by pvpers who joined/paid for a mythic guild to gear them.

[Hoover Hog]

Not entirely true about the scaling though. The number of stats may go up linearly with item lvl, but the power they give the player doesn't. Stats interact with each other. If one tier I have 20% crit and 20% mastery, and the next I have 30% crit and 30% mastery, My damage is going to go up exponentially, not linearly.

But that goes back to stat scaling and everyone should be gaining an equal amount of stats each time a new season comes out. If the top rated move from 23% crit to 24% crit and the casual player moves from 22% to 23% then there is no gap issue.

My point was that with stats removed from the calculation there is no difference between moving from ilevel 100 to 125 and moving from 800 to 825. With the stated values, each of those jumps would provide 2.5% more stats than the baseline. "Crazy ilevel scaling" would be like if Tier 1 -> Tier 2 gave 10 ilevel and Tier 15 -> Tier 16 gave 150 ilevel.

Im 100% fine with equal. I just want to avoid any situation where a pvper should have to pve to get the best gear. If pve gear is better than gear u get from pvp, you will see the top of the ladders dominated by pvpers who joined/paid for a mythic guild to gear them.

Exactly. If the highest PvP gear is say ilevel 885, but Mythic Warforged is ilevel 900. Then just have PvP instances setup so that when someone enters with an 897 ilevel, they get stats as though they were ilevel 885. As PvP attainable ilevel increases, increase that cap to match.

[ellieg]

But that goes back to stat scaling and everyone should be gaining an equal amount of stats each time a new season comes out. If the top rated move from 23% crit to 24% crit and the casual player moves from 22% to 23% then there is no gap issue.

My point was that with stats removed from the calculation there is no difference between moving from ilevel 100 to 125 and moving from 800 to 825. With the stated values, each of those jumps would provide 2.5% more stats than the baseline. "Crazy ilevel scaling" would be like if Tier 1 -> Tier 2 gave 10 ilevel and Tier 15 -> Tier 16 gave 150 ilevel.



Exactly. If the highest PvP gear is say ilevel 885, but Mythic Warforged is ilevel 900. Then just have PvP instances setup so that when someone enters with an 897 ilevel, they get stats as though they were ilevel 885. As PvP attainable ilevel increases, increase that cap to match.

Ya I agree but what about open world? The quote about stat differences being squished only mentions "in pvp instances" Will players in open world not get that stat squish and 25 ilvl difference be a true 25 ilvls?

[TrumpIsPresident]

Blizzard spent the past 8 years ignoring the two main complaints about PVP: gear and spec balance.

PVPing isn't fun if you don't have a full set of top gear and even then it can still suck if you're on a team with people who don't have a full set of top gear.

And of course the spec imbalances are an obvious joke to any serious gamer with an appreciation for actual gaming skill.

But after 8 years we finally get a response to these complaints ...and its total fucking rubbish.

They spew nonsense at us with this "don't worry we're normalizing all stats via gear" and then in the same breath they say "but we're adding in a way to make sure you can imbalance that normalization".

And admittedly I haven't seen the final product of what PVP spec trees will look like but I'll bet $1000 right here and now it will be nothing more than a rehashing of the same imbalances that have plagued PVP for a decade.

Blizzard simply isn't capable of producing a PVP game that appeals to high skilled gamers.

They just want to apply the PVE item earning model to PVP and then ignore the community.

Fuck WoW PVP, I'll stick to skill based games like DOTA2 & CSGO.

[Hoover Hog]

Ya I agree but what about open world? The quote about stat differences being squished only mentions "in pvp instances" Will players in open world not get that stat squish and 25 ilvl difference be a true 25 ilvls?

For balance purposes, I would say Blizz doesn't care about open world PvP, because it's not rated and doesn't carry rewards. This is backed up by the fact that the PvP Talents are only active when you are in a PvP instance. Ultimately, PvPers probably gain more overall by having gear that doesn't devote a large portion of its stat budget to a stat that is useless against everything that isn't another player.