should LFR loot be Epic or Rare?

[Deleted]

LFR loot should be the same as heroic loot.

All the raids should drop the same gear, then we'd see actual interest in raiding versus actual interest in gearing.

Onmce we found that people who actually want to raid hardcore just to do it number about 250, blizzard could remove HC raids and put other content in the game which people are actually interested in, such as 5 mans, levelling or more pets to collect.

The sooner you stop trying to treat your personal opinions as facts, the better.

[Deleted]

The sooner you stop trying to treat your personal opinions as facts, the better.

I'm not doing that.

If you look closely, i'm saying that if you did remove the gear aspect, you would find out which thing people like the most.

If HC level raid gear dropped in 5 mans, solo quests, pet battles, normal raids, HC raids, LFR, scenarios and HC scenarios equally, then people would be free to make a decision to do the content they liked the most.

No need for my preferences to matter at all. I'm bloody sure HC raids wouldn't be top of the list though!

[Deleted]

I'm not doing that.

If you look closely, i'm saying that if you did remove the gear aspect, you would find out which thing people like the most.

If HC level raid gear dropped in 5 mans, solo quests, pet battles, normal raids, HC raids, LFR, scenarios and HC scenarios equally, then people would be free to make a decision to do the content they liked the most.

No need for my preferences to matter at all. I'm bloody sure HC raids wouldn't be top of the list though!

And without character progression, the game would hastily lose its playerbase.

[Deleted]

And without character progression, the game would hastily lose its playerbase.

There is character progression in the above model - it's just no longer reaching it's pinnacle in HC raiding.

In fact, theres more character progression for more people.

Let me gues,s HC raider? Panties in a bunch at the thought of others getting to share in your fat loot? Knees jerking so hard they cover your eyes and stop you reading?

[LeperHerring]

It's itemlevel that matters.

No it isn't. There is a difference beyond the display color. Stat budget is different for blue and epic items. For example, blue one-hand weapon DPS is calculated: iLevel*0.7488 - 14.4905, while epic is: iLevel*0.6 + 15.5. (The numbers might change with the item squish, but the point stands.)

[Deleted]

It doesn't really matter, but people will feel less inclined to go fro rare loot, even if the stats are no different. The mentality of WoW at the moment seems to be "if you ain't full epic you ain't worth shit" so would be an interesting spin on things

[Akka]

No it isn't. There is a difference beyond the display color. Stat budget is different for blue and epic items. For example, blue one-hand weapon DPS is calculated: iLevel*0.7488 - 14.4905, while epic is: iLevel*0.6 + 15.5. (The numbers might change with the item squish, but the point stands.)

That was true until Cata, but since Cata epics and blue have the exact same budget and the only difference is in the ilvl.

Epic and rare are a purely cosmetic difference (which is a design flaw in my opinion and lose a very strong signature element of the game, but whatever).

As for what LFR should drop... any automated system should only drop greens IMO. Rare and above should be rewards for actual teamwork and only be available where there is a modicum of challenge.

[Vankrys]

the very name of item category hints for rarity of the items

common - uncommon - rare
so yeah, they should keep epic quite rare and blue item be more common than epic, seems reasonable to me.

[Deleted]

From a designer point of view, lfr loot being blue could further add incentive for people to dabble in organized raiding (now even more convenient with group finder).

From a player point of view, this would mean zero things to me.

[Warlord Booty]

If it is an upgrade to them and helps their gear progression towards something higher, then it is ok for it to be a "less quality" of gear.

[Deleted]

No, they have a valid point. Gear shouldn't be the reward for raiding. Accomplishment of defeating a challenge should. The reward is the dopamine released from working hard at something and succeeding at it. Gear serves as a way to separate tiers, as well as a lore-related visual reward. I may not agree with removing HC raids; they are great to have; but the gear, same with pvp, shouldn't be the reason to do the content; unless you like being on a treadmill with a carrot dangling in front of you; instead of being someone who runs where they choose because they enjoy the run and the adrenaline rush you get from it.

The biggest thing gear do is allow or gradual nerfs without interfering. As people gear up the bosses gets easier and easier. This means that a bunch of seperate raid teams can find the same boss challenging and fun even though their skills vastly differ due to having different gear levels. It also artificially extends content since most people are not good enough to be able to kill a boss at the entry level gear and needs to wait for upgrades which takes time to get. That way people take less time to get through the content and it remains financially viable for Blizzard.

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The reason I get a really bad reaction when I say "take the loot out of the equation" is that the hardcore fanboys know that half their raids would walk out if it happened.

Rather because the tuning of raids would get fucked up. As I mentioned earlier. Either raids would become stupidly easy or stupidly hard. People kill bosses with different gear levels. It allows multiple groups of people to enjoy the same boss. Without it a boss would only be tuned for one audience rather than dozens.

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I'm not doing that.

If you look closely, i'm saying that if you did remove the gear aspect, you would find out which thing people like the most.

If HC level raid gear dropped in 5 mans, solo quests, pet battles, normal raids, HC raids, LFR, scenarios and HC scenarios equally, then people would be free to make a decision to do the content they liked the most.

No need for my preferences to matter at all. I'm bloody sure HC raids wouldn't be top of the list though!

Dont misjudge path of least resistance for the path of most enjoyment. People will always do what is the easiest. That does not mean the best loot in the game should be available from the starting zone quests.

You also need to remember that Blizzard does not want you in full gear, they do not want you to have done everything in the game. They want you to keep paying you sub fee by trying to achieve it. It would not be financially viable for them to do otherwise.

[Deleted]

The biggest thing gear do is allow or gradual nerfs without interfering. As people gear up the bosses gets easier and easier. This means that a bunch of seperate raid teams can find the same boss challenging and fun even though their skills vastly differ due to having different gear levels. It also artificially extends content since most people are not good enough to be able to kill a boss at the entry level gear and needs to wait for upgrades which takes time to get. That way people take less time to get through the content and it remains financially viable for Blizzard.

Give them best gear by default, tune to that and there, done.

Rather because the tuning of raids would get fucked up. As I mentioned earlier. Either raids would become stupidly easy or stupidly hard. People kill bosses with different gear levels. It allows multiple groups of people to enjoy the same boss. Without it a boss would only be tuned for one audience rather than dozens.

Make it far too hard with the default gear and then just sit there and say "get better" - that's how it's done, right?

Dont misjudge path of least resistance for the path of most enjoyment. People will always do what is the easiest. That does not mean the best loot in the game should be available from the starting zone quests.

You also need to remember that Blizzard does not want you in full gear, they do not want you to have done everything in the game. They want you to keep paying you sub fee by trying to achieve it. It would not be financially viable for them to do otherwise.

Minimise drops to two per week. Job done.

Don't mistake people chasing gear into HC raiding with them enjoying HC raiding.

[Deleted]

Give them best gear by default, tune to that and there, done.


Make it far too hard with the default gear and then just sit there and say "get better" - that's how it's done, right?



Minimise drops to two per week. Job done.

Don't mistake people chasing gear into HC raiding with them enjoying HC raiding.

You want the best gear provided to players by default, in an RPG?
You want there to be one method of overcoming a boss? Get Better, no leeway? No easing of the raid through gathering gear?
But then there's drops to be had even though we have the best gear by default?

[Deleted]

You want the best gear provided to players by default, in an RPG?

No? Are you struggling with reading? I said give the best loot to a wide variety of endeavours, not just HC raiding.

You want there to be one method of overcoming a boss? Get Better, no leeway? No easing of the raid through gathering gear?

That appears to be the slogan of this forum, yes. What's the matter? Not good enough?

But then there's drops to be had even though we have the best gear by default?

Normalise HC raiding so you don't need gear for it. Make everything else let you use any gear you want. Leave progression in 5 mans, normal raids, flex etc

Whose who want a serious challenge can have it and everyone else can just gear up and have their fun. Win/win

[Sansnom]

From a designer point of view, lfr loot being blue could further add incentive for people to dabble in organized raiding (now even more convenient with group finder).

From a player point of view, this would mean zero things to me.

Possibly. But I think only a minority. For some, possibly the majority, (ignoring the "REAL" raiders, or whatever they like to label themselves), LFR is the only option for them. They are not interested in stepping up to the higher difficulty raiding. It can be many reasons, they are just not interested, not confidently, not able to meet the regularly schedule, whatever.

So without LFR, they will never raid. Blizzards clearly wanted to introduce more elements for these people to play. Which unfortunately, annoys a portion of the player base who feels Blizzards should devote more time to them. Giving them what they want. Harder, raids that only 1% of the player base who even get to see. Let only attempt to clear. Not all these casuals farmvilles, dailies, LFR and easy modes dungeons.

[Deleted]

Possibly. But I think only a minority. For some, possibly the majority, (ignoring the "REAL" raiders, or whatever they like to label themselves), LFR is the only option for them. They are not interested in stepping up to the higher difficulty raiding. It can be many reasons, they are just not interested, not confidently, not able to meet the regularly schedule, whatever.

So without LFR, they will never raid. Blizzards clearly wanted to introduce more elements for these people to play. Which unfortunately, annoys a portion of the player base who feels Blizzards should devote more time to them. Giving them what they want. Harder, raids that only 1% of the player base who even get to see. Let only attempt to clear. Not all these casuals farmvilles, dailies, LFR and easy modes dungeons.

I reckon that these players you speak of would have been pugging 10man ICC back in the day, or even doing GDKP runs.

LFR isn't the only solution, and hopefully with flex and the finder tool in WoD we can see a return to casual player made raids.

[Sansnom]

Normalise HC raiding so you don't need gear for it. Make everything else let you use any gear you want. Leave progression in 5 mans, normal raids, flex etc

Whose who want a serious challenge can have it and everyone else can just gear up and have their fun. Win/win

It would be interesting to see how popular the CM dungeons was. I though it was something along that line. Would be interesting though. Normalize the gear. No need for gearing. Progress through. Have some drops though as a carrot. Maybe a mount. Maybe a tabard. A title. Transmog gear. A ladder for timed run.

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I reckon that these players you speak of would have been pugging 10man ICC back in the day, or even doing GDKP runs.

LFR isn't the only solution, and hopefully with flex and the finder tool in WoD we can see a return to casual player made raids.

I hope not. Player made runs had their own problems. Must have achievements, item level 251, etc. Even after 30% nerf, many pugs expects people to out gear the place. The problem with player PUGs is the inflated entry requirements and the looting issues with master loot etc.

Some players just rather not bother. I certainly do not which is why I rarely join PUGs and just stick to guild runs.

LFR is not perfect. But the other options has its own problem. Legendary cloak requirements? Really? Sure the can form their own raids. But these are not your regular raiders, so are they really going to know how to form a raid and possibly lead it?

[Deleted]

I hope not. Player made runs had their own problems. Must have achievements, item level 251, etc. Even after 30% nerf, many pugs expects people to out gear the place. The problem with player PUGs is the inflated entry requirements and the looting issues with master loot etc.

Some players just rather not bother. I certainly do not which is why I rarely join PUGs and just stick to guild runs.

LFR is not perfect. But the other options has its own problem. Legendary cloak requirements? Really? Sure the can form their own raids. But these are not your regular raiders, so are they really going to know how to form a raid and possibly lead it?

It's been echo'd before, but with a small amount of social interaction you can bypass the requirements advertised by players. And lets be honest, the high requirements and legendary cloak etc aren't realistic and the players with those items won't be bothering with flex. Its partly blizzards fault in MoP for making the legendary so accessible (But not for people starting now) but thats another topic..

Player made groups do sometimes have their problems and can result in failure, but so can LFR. But failure is part of the game.

[Deleted]

I'd like the colors of gear to mean something (aside from legendary). Rare for anything below normal except for a few pieces.
So LFR should be dropping mostly rares but then there should be stuff like trinkets or wing-end boss drops that are epic.

[Saxtorph]

The bashing of LFR gear is simply so players can blame someone but themselves.
They chose to run LFR for extra gear, but they aren't happy about it.
So they throw a tantrum and lash out at other players, or at blizzard when nobody else was to blame.

Throwing tantrums when they don't get their way? Nonsense!