Harder work!=Higher pay?

[Goatfish]

Let's just put it this way. I put in more effort into my job than most the other people there, but I am not as fast and therefore not as productive money wise. What I do instead is give far higher quality, especially on the cleaning side preventing fines and warnings from the health department. Where they clean a pan in 10 seconds and leave food all over it, I clean it in 20 and leave it spotless. The have 10 more seconds to work on something else, but who is the more productive employee who gets payed more?

Where it gets harder is when you look at sales in general (note: I work as a meat cutter). My fellow workers like to cut steaks and fillets heavy in the hopes of getting more sales by passing it off. Such as cutting a fillet 10oz instead of 8oz and do it in 15 seconds. I take 20 and give them 8 oz when they ask for 8oz. I get more return customers asking for me because I give them what they want, and about 20-30% of the time my co workers have to go back and re-cut, making them take 30 seconds total and losing some of the profit because the 2oz they have to cut off goes to $5/lb burger instead of $28/lb fillet.

All in all, it takes quite a bit of effort on a supervisors part, especially when you consider that we have ~20 people on the meat team and you would have to evaluate each persons performance specifically in depth enough to make that sort of judgement call on effort and productivity=pay. Then how do you determine that sort of thing for supervisors and higher ups?

[Ginantonicus]

Let's face reality here.
Let's say you're in a wheelchair, sure you should have the chance of applying for the same firefighter job as anyone else. The question is though: Would you be able to complete that work? It would seem more logical for the person in a wheelchair to have a work infront of a desk or somewhere he doesn't need to move physically...
If they can't get as much work done, then they're not working on the same level, who do you think that the company would rather keep if there are cuts? I know this is morally wrong but that is life.

In your first post the "hard worker and the "Handicapped person" are already working the same job. Lets not go change the example.

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But what if one is working less hard than the other then? He shouldn't be payed the same by that logic as you said "I already pay you to work hard.". He/she should be more likely to lose the job.

In Australia when you are interviewed for a job you are allowed to negotiate for your entitlements. The "hard worker" can ask for more pay, on the other hand the "handicapped person" could do the same job less productively for less money, then its up to the employer to work out which will be more cost effective. It is quite possible that the "handicapped person" is the one that gets the job.

[sockzz]

Smarter work = higher pay

[Surfd]

These are mainly my thoughts, but it's only logical that a hardworking person would be more eligible for a promotion than one who doesn't work hard.

The problem is basicly: How do you quantify "hard working".

Lets use your example from the OP of a "normal" person vs a "person with a disability" (lets call them Handicapped for general purpose sake, but the disability could be physical or mental).

You have a lot of factors to look at. Do you judge solely on work ethic? Do you only look at "throughput"?

If you work at job X, and the Handicapped person is always giving the job 100%, and the normal person is only giving 80%, do you penalize the handicapped person because their disabilty prevents them from competing on an even playing field with the normal guy? If your job is to assemble widgits, and the normal guy can assemble more widgets only putting in 80% of his potential then the handicapped person can putting in 100% effort, who is the better employee? The guy giving it his all, or the guy just doing the job but "numerically" out producing the other guy?

You have to look at each job + employee interaction individually, and rather then on a general scale, because everything is not simply black and white.

Then again, when you look at the real world, and realise that most of the people who get raises are the ones who put in minimum effort doing their job and maximum effort brown-noseing the bossman, you start to realise that your whole "reward the guy who works hardest" model generally falls flat on its face (and then gets capped in the head, execution style) because office politics is a bitch.

[drukai]

Let's just put it this way. I put in more effort into my job than most the other people there, but I am not as fast and therefore not as productive money wise. What I do instead is give far higher quality, especially on the cleaning side preventing fines and warnings from the health department. Where they clean a pan in 10 seconds and leave food all over it, I clean it in 20 and leave it spotless. The have 10 more seconds to work on something else, but who is the more productive employee who gets payed more?

This... entirely this. Quality is just as important (and in the case of a meat cutter, moreso) as "productivity." Just because you get your stuff done faster doesn't mean it's as high quality as another workers, and in the end, the one who ends up making me more money as an employer is the one who gets bigger pay checks. I absolutely would pay Goatfish higher than someone who's sloppy and losing me money on high quality cuts because they want to get to the next customer, but as long as I'm not losing money, I wouldn't pay the others less than the expected pay for their position.

[Eduro]

So much money grub up in here. What other people are paid does not impact you, and if you think it does you don't have any grasp on economics or how to be a decent person. Yes, your pay should be commensurate to your skills, but no, you don't have any right to say that someone else should be paid less because of a physical or mental handicapping. I love how Eduro went back and decided to say that he was referring to someone who didn't work or enjoy their job, when in the first post he clearly states that someone with a handicap shouldn't be paid as well.

Fact of the matter is, everyone deserves to be paid enough to live a happy and healthy life as long as they do their work, if you feel you deserve more money than someone else with your skillset maybe you should reexamine your priorities (also, you probably don't make enough money to live comfortably, so you might want to look at that on the way.) Money is fake, we invented it and it inherently means nothing, it is only until we apply a value does it gain one, and even then, the value is constantly in flux because of people who have no care about you or any of us. Yes, you need it, but no, it isn't the be all-end all that people seem to think it is, besides, if you really need lots of it that Wall Street place has more than enough for anyone to live off of for a long ass time. In fact, if you're really sad that some jackass is making as much money as you... go play the markets, most people who are really rolling in the dough make most of their money through markets and commerce, not actually doing any work.

First of; I know it doesn't impact me. I'm simply saying that I think that if you are a better worker you should get paid more regardless what the people around you make. It doesn't WORK this way I know, these are my thoughts.
Secondly: Being a decent person? I think everyone should have the same rights to a good job/life. Then what that individual does with that which was given to him/her should make an impact of how well you shall continue on living.
Thirldly: I'm not saying that a handicapped shouldn't be paid the same. I'm saying that they should get the same chance as you and me, but if they are a liability (This would go for any person, regardless of being handicapped or not) to the company they should either step up or search for something else, maybe they shouldn't have become a firefighter in the first place..
Last but not least : I'm not saying this is my situation. I am simply stating this is how I would like it to be. I'm still studying and just doing working parttime/during holidays and what-not. But I don't want someone (No not talking about handicapped people.) who does less work than me get the same salary, the way I got told this was that "Everyone should get the same pay, no matter what" and to me that sounds like communism, which I despise as it does not strive people to be better at something and historically speaking hasn't worked.

[Deleted]

Lol if thats how much kim values your friendship, to break it off at a forced opinion, then you're perfectly fine without Kim. though, as i suspect, Kim is a female, you are a male, and you are attracted to her. That is why you will have to apologize, think like she does and be her white knight. If you want to get into her pants, that is.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Should apply to WoW at least, shame it doesn't.

WoW isn't real life so it isn't going to be the same. Very subtle Gear QQ.

[Eduro]

Lol if thats how much kim values your friendship, to break it off at a forced opinion, then you're perfectly fine without Kim. though, as i suspect, Kim is a female, you are a male, and you are attracted to her. That is why you will have to apologize, think like she does and be her white knight. If you want to get into her pants, that is.

Haha we used to be a "thing" half a year ago, we stopped talking for a while and she came back to me a month ago and I pissed her off already with my way of looking at things ; thanks but no thanks, I think I'll pass

[Itisamuh]

Better workers should always get better raises. Protection for handicaps generally just means not getting fired for a level of performance that other people would get fired for. It does not mean they are guaranteed the same level of raises or promotions. That girl is a brat.

[drukai]

First of; I know it doesn't impact me. I'm simply saying that I think that if you are a better worker you should get paid more regardless what the people around you make. It doesn't WORK this way I know, these are my thoughts.

Absolutely you should be paid better for being a better worker, but working better and working harder are not the same things.

Secondly: Being a decent person? I think everyone should have the same rights to a good job/life. Then what that individual does with that which was given to him/her should make an impact of how well you shall continue on living.

Exactly, and what does that have to do with you? Nothing, it's for them and them alone, and any decent person would know that what another person does with their money (and how much they have/make) is not their business.

Thirldly: I'm not saying that a handicapped shouldn't be paid the same. I'm saying that they should get the same chance as you and me, but if they are a liability (This would go for any person, regardless of being handicapped or not) to the company they should either step up or search for something else, maybe they shouldn't have become a firefighter in the first place..

And say the man was a firefighter who was in a car wreck and became a paraplegic already? He's a liability to the firefighters in the field while in the field, but there are plenty of things that he can do. More importantly, a position that requires the physical demands like firefighting does absolutely does discriminate against people who CANNOT perform the required duties.

Last but not least : I'm not saying this is my situation. I am simply stating this is how I would like it to be. I'm still studying and just doing working parttime/during holidays and what-not. But I don't want someone (No not talking about handicapped people.) who does less work than me get the same salary, the way I got told this was that "Everyone should get the same pay, no matter what" and to me that sounds like communism, which I despise as it does not strive people to be better at something and historically speaking hasn't worked.

And I would like it if we just got rid of money and said fuck all the rich people who make billions for doing nothing off the backs of millions of workers. That is never gonna happen. As I said (and has been mentioned a few times) working better is not always working harder. Sometimes it is, yes, especially in more physically demanding positions like construction, but in a lot of fields working better actually minimizes the amount of work you end up doing. Then some new guy comes in, sees you making way more money than him but doing what seems like less than him, and whines about it and gets you fired because he's a pretentious wank who thinks his paycheck needed to be higher because he does a ton of useless crap that he doesn't realize he doesn't have to do.

[Deleted]

Hard work has absolutely nothing to do with higher pay.

[Eduro]

Okay better work then ( looking from the employer, he is the one to judge) should be able to get a reward for doing a better work. She doesn't want this.
Off topic; yes she is a brat. Socialist vegetarian extreme feminist who constantly says she hates the patriarch and everyone who eats meat.. Why did I even bother in the first place now that I come to think about it. Lol.

[drukai]

Okay better work then ( looking from the employer, he is the one to judge) should be able to get a reward for doing a better work. She doesn't want this.
Off topic; yes she is a brat. Socialist vegetarian extreme feminist who constantly says she hates the patriarch and everyone who eats meat.. Why did I even bother in the first place now that I come to think about it. Lol.

Yeah, you might have wanted to start off with that. As someone who sees benefits in socialism (and communism) and abhors capitalism, those people make me laugh with their level of craycray. But absolutely, you do better work (you make me more money or save me money), you deserve a portion of the gains that you were directly responsible for.

[Eduro]

Yeah, you might have wanted to start off with that. As someone who sees benefits in socialism (and communism) and abhors capitalism, those people make me laugh with their level of craycray. But absolutely, you do better work (you make me more money or save me money), you deserve a portion of the gains that you were directly responsible for.

Yea I realize I should've stated it differently to begin with( was in the heat of the moment and English not being my main language doesn't help )

[Vargur]

So, let's have this straight;this is all my thoughts and my way of looking at things, judge as you wish but to me it makes sense.

Basically had a discussion with a person, let's call it Kim (Because gender-neutral). Well Kim says that everyone should have the same rights to acknowledge their feats and strengths in terms of work and should be able to show what they can do. To which I respond "Sure everyone should have the same rights to a job (If they have the same year of experience and knowledge) but if one person works harder and better he should be payed more(Because Logic right?)" to which I get a response saying some along the lines of "What if I as a person don't have the same conditions(Handicapped etc.) as you do, should I therefore be payed less?"
My natural response "Yes, I think that a hardworking fella should be rewarded.(Read; raise)"
I later get a text saying "You don't have to speak with me again, your way of looking at people are disgusting."

So how do you feel? Everone should be given the same rights to a work, but if one works harder it's just natural that he/she gets payed more?
Weirdest discussion for me I've had in a long time, happy to hear your thoughts as I'm struggling to see the issue...

Welcome to the real world.

[Orcbert]

Old adage but still quite true. "Work smarter, not harder." I would rather pay the man who's figured out how to get his work done in 6 hours and leave early than the man who works for 12 hours on the same project.

[xenogear3]

Don't know about pay, but
harder work == this worker may get sick soon

If you know someone is about to sick soon, do you pay him more or fire him first.

[Eduro]

Don't know about pay, but
harder work == this worker may get sick soon

If you know someone is about to sick soon, do you pay him more or fire him first.

Yes I should have used the term "better work"(from the employers view) should be able to get a raise, a carrot if you wish, to strive for. This is silly by her means and I'm inhumane

[Deleted]

Want to get more paid? Well pick up a higher education then.