Putin puts troops in western Russia on alert in drill 1.1

[Kellhound]

Considering how dangerous it was to move across the town of Sloviansk i'm surprised someone took time to bury people.
There could be anyone, no matter what they say. And resistance openly deals with traitors by the laws of wartime, this is no secret. And nothing bad.
I'm more interested in multiple bodies of UA militia found under water, while UA declares like 20 times less losses to their people than some papers and rebels claim
http://en.voicesevas.ru/2669-divers-...an-waters.html
Of course this does not have to be true, you don't need to even hide bodies to pretend they deserted, not dead like UA does

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Why, if the conflict is over some foreign territory, than both sides would not use nukes even if lost.
I mean if tomorrow NATO and Russia invade parts of Ukraine, they'll ultimately end by splitting it somehow, but that's it. Though, Crimea is now seen as part of Russia here so it would be protected buy any means.

Modern warfare is not confined to small spaces generally, it would eventually end up in Russia proper.

Crimea really isn't worth fighting over, it is only important to Russia and Ukraine, and its importance to Russia is mainly mental.

[Bakis]

Considering how dangerous it was to move across the town of Sloviansk i'm surprised someone took time to bury people.
There could be anyone, no matter what they say. And resistance openly deals with traitors by the laws of wartime, this is no secret. And nothing bad.
I'm more interested in multiple bodies of UA militia found under water, while UA declares like 20 times less losses to their people than some papers and rebels claim
http://en.voicesevas.ru/2669-divers-...an-waters.html
Of course this does not have to be true, you don't need to even hide bodies to pretend they deserted, not dead like UA does

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Why, if the conflict is over some foreign territory, than both sides would not use nukes even if lost.
I mean if tomorrow NATO and Russia invade parts of Ukraine, they'll ultimately end by splitting it somehow, but that's it. Though, Crimea is now seen as part of Russia here so it would be protected buy any means.

Only one problem with your opening argument, that evidence or trials tend to be arbritrary and summary.

[Deleted]

If it becomes a conventional war at all be assured that one side has their nukes disabled, the losing side of course.

Stop think you can disable the nuclear war machine. Now what will you do if the Russian tell the US (or the world) that if US start to destroy USSR missile complex it will be interpreted as US is trying to do a first strike, and Russia will retaliate with all the surviving weapons....

[Cybran]

Stop think you can disable the nuclear war machine. Now what will you do if the Russian tell the US (or the world) that if US start to destroy USSR missile complex it will be interpreted as US is trying to do a first strike, and Russia will retaliate with all the surviving weapons....

Believing in fairy tales like that is the only way the Neocons can sleep at night.

[Deleted]

Stop think you can disable the nuclear war machine. Now what will you do if the Russian tell the US (or the world) that if US start to destroy USSR missile complex it will be interpreted as US is trying to do a first strike, and Russia will retaliate with all the surviving weapons....

They won't tell it, they will do it. Because both sides know it well, it's not a kindergarten, you don't have to remind them anything.

[BreathTaker]

Listen man, if these guys have executed civilians then it's far from ok or good. Going by that same logic, the Ukrainian government forces has every right to execute anyone putting up a fight in the rebel controlled areas because they are traitors. Would that be good? "Or nothing bad"?

Netherlands and Australia might be sending commandos to secure the crash site btw.

I see your point, yet see mine too - if civilian assists their enemy - this is no more a civilian. This is an agent under cover.
And you know - UA's government forces do execute (well, still mostly arrest) civilians who're agains them.

If tomorrow crap like this happens in my country - i'll be all against people who support the enemy, even if they're 'civilian'.
Sure i'd call the police/FSB to deal with them first, but if they're too busy, i'd have to do something on my own.

Sometimes, there are no 'civilians' at all, even though it's weird by today's standards. In ww2 while we were still fighting on our soil - any male older than 15 was either an army-man or a coward (Except for those more wothy to army somewhere else. Anyway even factories mostly had women workin there for men were all fighting).

[Cybran]

There wasn't need for a civil war in the first place. Half the country doesn't want to be part of Europe. Instead they are being bombed and soon the parties that represent Eastern Ukrainians will be outlawed while the people in the East won't be allowed to vote like in the presidential election. Such European values.

[Deleted]

Half the country? Look at that map, besides Crimea only in the Donetsk, Luhansk and Kharkiv-regions are there more pro-Russians than pro-Europeans. Even in far-east Zaporizhia there are almost twice as many pro-Europeans than pro-Russians, and look at Dnipropetrovsk, that's like 2.5 times as many.

[BreathTaker]

Half the country? Look at that map, besides Crimea only in the Donetsk, Luhansk and Kharkiv-regions are there more pro-Russians than pro-Europeans. Even in far-east Zaporizhia there are almost twice as many pro-Europeans than pro-Russians, and look at Dnipropetrovsk, that's like 2.5 times as many.

Ehhm, the other regions are just regions where neither pro-European neither pro-Russian people dominate.
So if there's 50/50 or 70/30 - it still points that the country is devided. Does not matter if 50/50, 60/40 or 40/60, it's still millions of people who will not agree with each other on a key point. There're only 3 solutions:
* deny both Euro and Russian orientation of UA,
* splitting of a country (somehow, will still cause a lot of internal migration)
* genocide of those without army control by those with army control.
The current variant is 3d, which will lead to 2d in the end. The variant 1 is the way to keep maidaning the country forever.

Can you offer any other better (or just different) variants aside from theese three?

[Deleted]

Ehhm, the other regions are just regions where neither pro-European neither pro-Russian people dominate.
So if there's 50/50 or 70/30 - it still points that the country is devided.

It's not incredibly divided if there's a 70/30 split. What's undivided to you? If everyone agrees to 100%?

I mean, the central-southern regions are the ones who are the closest to being truly divided, but I can't see the country being incredibly divided.

[BreathTaker]

It's not incredibly divided if there's a 70/30 split. What's undivided to you? If everyone agrees to 100%?

I mean, the central-southern regions are the ones who are the closest to being truly divided, but I can't see the country being incredibly divided.

What matters there is how important the point is for people. If it's just about how much taxes you pay or how you teach children - some people will have to accept that majority voted this way or another.
But when it's a choise as important as what UA wanted to make - people will not agree to keep silent. If there was 95/5 devision - the 5 % would have to move out to Russia. But you cannot move 30% or 50% of 40mln population. It's their land, and just as western supporters took Kiev with arms - the eastern part will retaliate and take Kiev back. Actually the only reason to split from UA is because even capturing Kiev and bringing back justice will not make western part of UA friends to them.

It's almost equal to situation where 30% of population are criminals and 70% are not. Can you call that insignificant devision?
Can they leave homes safely?
The situation if dramatically different when it's 98/2, right?

IMO the very fact that there's at least one region that's >80% for something and at least one that's >80% against something
is enough to make trouble.

[Puupi]

By the way, could someone explain why and how Sergei Shoigu holds the military rank of general of the army?

Not only it is common among dictators to promote themselves to some Übermarshal, but usually they have specific non-traditional military ranks. The rank Shoigu holds is a normal military rank. How did he get it? He has never served in the military (according to wikipedia). I would love to hear the explanation.

[mmokri]

I would love to hear the explanation.

He served in internal army

[Deleted]

But when it's a choise as important as what UA wanted to make - people will not agree to keep silent. If there was 95/5 devision - the 5 % would have to move out to Russia.

Bullshit, by your logic 46.8% of Sweden would move out of Sweden just because they were against the EU in the 1994 referendum. But they didn't. Because moving out because you disagree with one decision is retarded.

It's almost equal to situation where 30% of population are criminals and 70% are not. Can you call that insignificant devision?

That's not even comparable, there's a significant difference between a yes/no-decision about joining a EU and criminal statistics. That's like saying that if there's 10% unemployment in a country (which is definitely a significant amount of people) that means that if there are 10% more apples in my neighbour's garden than in mine that's a real significant difference of apples. But it's not. Because percentages don't work that way.

IMO the very fact that there's at least one region that's >80% for something and at least one that's >80% against something
is enough to make trouble.

Here's the map of how Swedish provinces voted in the EU-referendum. Blue are provinces where the 'Yes'-vote got the majority, red provinces are where there was a majority of 'No'-votes.



As you can see, there was a significant split here too. But Sweden has been doing alright ever since.

[mmokri]

Haha i finally understand this topic.

Poor national socialist govahments were repressed by mongol communists post 1945 in eastern europe.
Only in 1993 repressed italy and germany could free repressed baltics and north erope from repression and start outsource their jobs outside of mongol communist china.
Right now in 2014 there are finally national socialist parades tolerated in tolerant EU.
Some nationalist socialist still repressed because they can be elected only under socialist democrat disguise.
Baltic nationalist socialists finally start to liberate their lands with democratic discrimination.
Ukrainian nationalist socialists finnaly become tolerated upon EU agreement.
Ukrainian nationalist socialists suddenly become repressed by mongols in 2014.
EU/US helps baltics with democratic discrimination against mongols.
Some national socialists show their repression state with "Where did you saw nazis?" "Swastika is hinduism symbol" phrases.

[BreathTaker]

By the way, could someone explain why and how Sergei Shoigu holds the military rank of general of the army?

Not only it is common among dictators to promote themselves to some Übermarshal, but usually they have specific non-traditional military ranks. The rank Shoigu holds is a normal military rank. How did he get it? He has never served in the military (according to wikipedia). I would love to hear the explanation.

I heard it's somehow connected to some ranks being bound to some civil job positions.
That is - president is the Supreme commander, even if he's not served in the army. And Shoigu has been a Minister for emergency situations for a long time, which seems connected with internal army, they're basicly high quality army forces without destructive weapons. What ever rank he had had to be raised to the rank required to be a minister of defence, or else how could the subordination be preserved.
And seems being a trusted guy is more important than going all the way from the lowest rank.
Shoigu's rating among all the other ministers seem to be quite high among people (that's because he's the one to arrive and save people! ).

[Deleted]

Bullshit, by your logic 46.8% of Sweden would move out of Sweden just because they were against the EU in the 1994 referendum. But they didn't. Because moving out because you disagree with one decision is retarded.

That's not even comparable, there's a significant difference between a yes/no-decision about joining a EU and criminal statistics. That's like saying that if there's 10% unemployment in a country (which is definitely a significant amount of people) that means that if there are 10% more apples in my neighbour's garden than in mine that's a real significant difference of apples. But it's not. Because percentages don't work that way.

Here's the map of how Swedish provinces voted in the EU-referendum. Blue are provinces where the 'Yes'-vote got the majority, red provinces are where there was a majority of 'No'-votes.



As you can see, there was a significant split here too. But Sweden has been doing alright ever since.

It's nice that you had a referendum about it. Ukraine didn't have the chance unfortunately.

[BreathTaker]

Bullshit, by your logic 46.8% of Sweden would move out of Sweden just because they were against the EU in the 1994 referendum. But they didn't. Because moving out because you disagree with one decision is retarded.

That's not even comparable, there's a significant difference between a yes/no-decision about joining a EU and criminal statistics. That's like saying that if there's 10% unemployment in a country (which is definitely a significant amount of people) that means that if there are 10% more apples in my neighbour's garden than in mine that's a real significant difference of apples. But it's not. Because percentages don't work that way.

Here's the map of how Swedish provinces voted in the EU-referendum. Blue are provinces where the 'Yes'-vote got the majority, red provinces are where there was a majority of 'No'-votes.



As you can see, there was a significant split here too. But Sweden has been doing alright ever since.

You just don't accept some decisions are more important than others.
Choise of civilizational reorientation is pretty important.
I, for one would go and overthrow any government if they decided we're now Islam state and live by sharia law. Or run away.
On the other hand if we decided something less significant - i'd be like 'wtf are you insane?' but would keep my rage between my friends and on internet forums .

[Cybran]

It's nice that you had a referendum about it. Ukraine didn't have the chance unfortunately.

We didn't have one either. The IMF decided for us.

[Deleted]

It's nice that you had a referendum about it. Ukraine didn't have the chance unfortunately.

Ukraine isn't in the EU, that's why.

You just don't accept some decisions are more important than others.
Choise of civilizational reorientation is pretty important.
I, for one would go and overthrow any government if they decided we're now Islam state and live by sharia law. Or run away.
On the other hand if we decided something less significant - i'd be like 'wtf are you insane?' but would keep my rage between my friends and on internet forums .

I'm not sure you know what kind of change the EU will bring to Ukraine. It's not comparable to an emirate though, that's for sure.