Analysis of the Level 45 Talent Tier

[Tiberria]

the fact that healing tide is casted once and then healing alone compared to a channeled spell makes it much stronger in my opinion.
you can cast other spell whle healing tide is doing it's work...

However, you have to consider the following if you try to do a direct comparison
1. Druids have a lot more HoTs that will continue ticking while they channel Tranquility than Shaman do. It isn't as if your Efflo, your active Lifebloom and all your active Rejuvs suddenly stop healing as soon as you start to channel Tranq
2. Druids currently have to hard cast almost nothing - maybe the occasional single target direct spot heal or to keep up Lifebloom. However, with their current 2 piece (instant Healing Touch procs at 5 stacks), they don't even usually have to hard cast that. The only thing that is getting a cast time in WoD is Wild Growth, so they will still have almost unfettered mobility. Shaman need to hard cast almost everything and don't even get me started on Shaman vs Druid movement speed capabilities. HTT being instant fire is more than balanced by the shortcomings of the rest of the toolkit.

[Blithe]

the fact that healing tide is casted once and then healing alone compared to a channeled spell makes it much stronger in my opinion.
you can cast other spell whle healing tide is doing it's work...

Over an 8 minute period (5 if the Druid and Shaman are both Restoration) they heal for almost the same amount, with Tranquility coming out on top. A lot of people use the argument you just used, but forget that Tranquility innately already heals for much more.

Assuming both PvE and PvP environments, both perform well and they have roughly equal strengths and weaknesses. Healing Tide Totem being passive is taken into account by Tranquility healing for increased amounts, and other such variables such as other healers' abilities, and how Shaman undeniably heal less than them because of our toolkit being totem-based and focusing heavily on raid utility. I'm sure there are plenty of other variables, but saying Healing Tide Totem is overpowered because it's passive is a farce.

[Nebria]

hm ok, so you could compare tranq with htt alone (not hots, not healing while htt is out), and a more realistic comparision which includes hots etc. from the druid and the casting you could do while htt is out.
and overall it is pretty even. nice.

[Blithe]

hm ok, so you compare compare tranq with htt alone (not hots, not healing between htt is out), and a more realstic comparision which includes hots etc. from the druid and the casting you could do while htt is out.
and overall it is pretty even. nice.

Most abilities are balanced with others in mind, but there are of course some outliers.

[Omanley]

and yes, that we all combine them in one class and most of them are group wide makes them so strong. that's all I'm looking at.

So because our utility happens to be shared with several others is what justifies them to be weaker? Doesn't make any sense. And the group effect got for the most part axed as well.
- Grounding => works just like spell reflect, except weaker, no group benefit
- Tremor => multiple fears are less common for a start, so you're not gonna benefit from it that often, but yes, it is an advantage. An advantage TT pays with a doubled cooldown. Berserker meanwhile is additionally also undispellable where TT is destroyable, grants immunity, is mobile after breaking cc and continueing walking, doesn't clip other utility or get clipped by it, isn't unusable while silenced (A silenced shaman cannot break fear?!) and also grants rage and physical damage increase...
- Earthbind is aoe...like Ice Trap and other aoe snares...
- Magma Totem...is aoe damage...and?
-Searing Totem...is single target
-FET/EET/SET...are pets
-HST is now a dumb, random hot, and single target effect
-HTT is aoe, just like tranquility and other aoe heals
-Storm Lash is largely useless in pvp, and benefitted all in pve, also it's gone in WoD
-Stone Bulwark is single target absorb
-Wind Walk is aoe freedom, but given that it requires a talent where hand of freedom does not, has more than double the cooldown and can be applied to allies on range, I'd say WWT has enough downsides for being an aoe effect, same story as TT. Also being immobile (as a fucking freedom effect!?) is pushing it.
Locking other stuff out is comparable in that you can only have one hand at a time active, HOWEVER with Storm Elemental totem there will be much more clashes within wind totems than there'll ever be with hand effects (esp considering 2/3 hand spells have high cd/low duration), not mentioning earth totems and (for resto) water totems. Destroyable is okay as HoF is dispellable.
-Capacitor is an aoe stun, yes. However with the higher cooldown vs kidney/deep and lower duration vs kidney/hammer for example, plus the added charge up, should make up for it. I would happily trade an instant single target stun for an aoe that will likely never see it through. And like with TT, you'll have to have your (moving) enemies together in one spot to make us of it, which is hard from the get go, and pretty much impossible with a long charging time. The totemic restricitons on top (being destroyable, immobile, cutting of/being cut of by other wind totems...it's over the top.

So where's the great aoe benefit of totems? Hardly much. In those rare cases there actually is one, it is balanced out with stuff like longer cooldowns and charging times. The totemic restrictions are over the top.

this won't work. you can't have two pets at the same time. that is a technical limitation.

It works with Stampede though. All you have to do is the first pet you summon to be the "leader", and have it under your control. The following pets will then be the, well, "followers", and assume the pet assist function, attacking whatever the first pet attacks. Simple. Once the leader dies, the "second in line" will take the leader role.

As for abilities: Damage attacks do not need to be on the bar and Empower and Reinforce could be merged. Assuming both PE and SET, we'd have in our pet bar, assuming all three would be active at the very same time:
Harden Skin, Pulverize, Reinforce, and Gale Winds
Eye of the Storm is an passive effect, so no need of putting that in the bar either. Four skills should fit in a pet bar no problem. A problem might be Call Lightning though, as it is a casted spell and PE SET giving that speed aura would make us want them not to cast it while chasing someone, as we would lose the aura...would five spells fit into a pet bar?
Just checked: Outside of attack/follow/stay, and assist/defensive/passive, there is four slots left. Looking at how Elementals are only used within fights, I dont see that much use for the pet stances though, leaving evnough palce even for even 7 abilities, let alone 5.

thanks to PE they made enhancers wolfs non pet and added a lockout to the elementals

They could've made Feral Spirits guardians because their utility no longer was tied to them (CPT replaced Bash, Spirit Walk usable on shaman), and therefor control was less important. It could've been like you said though, hard to say. You're wrong about the lock out being there because of PE though. Elementals shared that lock out since introduction in tbc, where both were guardians just like they are now, baseline.

With my suggestion you could even make Feral Spirits smart again, since they just assist. They wouldn't take pet bar space either since they have no abilities anymore either.

it won't make a single totem overpowered, but the shaman class absolutly.
some single points I would agree but some point are just over the top in my opinion.

That is where testing comes into play. Keeping a dozen abilities tied up in a restrictive ability cluster though is not the sollution.

Tbh, the only thing I'd see as problematic would be multiple elements, for reason's like being a burden on servers if a all shamans of a raid start running around with multiple elementals, and stacking long duration damage, healing and mobility cooldowns with sub utility like stun and dmg reduction. That said, elementals not having that shared lock out was among the lower prio suggestions. I must say I do not like how shamans with their primal elementals are back to the old Feral Spirit debacle in wotlk, so yeah.

[Nebria]

- Grounding => works just like spell reflect, except weaker, no group benefit

it is weaker that you need a glyph to let it reflect, that is true. and also it breaks after one reflect, not sure about spell reflect
but grounding has a group benefit. it reflects one spell that was targeted on one of your group...
I used it gor example on durumu hc to reflect the dot. not sure if sepell reflect would have worked here too

- Tremor => multiple fears are less common for a start, so you're not gonna benefit from it that often, but yes, it is an advantage. An advantage TT pays with a doubled cooldown. Berserker meanwhile is additionally also undispellable where TT is destroyable, grants immunity, is mobile after breaking cc and continueing walking, doesn't clip other utility or get clipped by it, isn't unusable while silenced (A silenced shaman cannot break fear?!) and also grants rage and physical damage increase...

in pvp multiple fears are very common if you play against a warlock (and here with no cd you woud make is fear non existent). in pve it is right, there is mostly one with a longer cd. so tremor would be up again.
but the whole benefit is that you can get out the whole group out of fear. berserker is just for the warrior...
you jus lok at "it can remove the fear on me" and don't see the big picture of it
you can' use it while silenced cause of the big pvp nerf to shamans (and I still wai for a compensation)
the buffs a warrio gets doesn't mater, the totem is to remove fear. and by the way it also get you out of sleep effects like hunters sleep poison. does berserke provides this too?

-HST is now a dumb, random hot, and single target effect

it is a smart heal. with a talent and a glyph you can also get incoming reduced elemental damage buff and it heals 2 persons at once.
in pve one of heal spells with the most healing done for doing nothing.

-Wind Walk is aoe freedom, but given that it requires a talent where hand of freedom does not, has more than double the cooldown and can be applied to allies on range, I'd say WWT has enough downsides for being an aoe effect, same story as TT. Also being immobile (as a fucking freedom effect!?) is pushing it.
Locking other stuff out is comparable in that you can only have one hand at a time active, HOWEVER with Storm Elemental totem there will be much more clashes within wind totems than there'll ever be with hand effects (esp considering 2/3 hand spells have high cd/low duration), not mentioning earth totems and (for resto) water totems. Destroyable is okay as HoF is dispellable.

hand of fredom is sinle traget and I guess it has a cd.
wind walk is for the whole raid. don't know why it is so important for you that is is immobile? pvp pov?
the conflict with the elemental is a good point. for pve I think it doesn't matter as you use it rarely. and it might be reason to use totemic persistance.
from pvp pov the hand is stronger yes. but from pve pov I see wwt in front if multiple persons need it at the same time.
and with a talten you could reset the cd.

-Capacitor is an aoe stun, yes. However with the higher cooldown vs kidney/deep and lower duration vs kidney/hammer for example, plus the added charge up, should make up for it. I would happily trade an instant single target stun for an aoe that will likely never see it through. And like with TT, you'll have to have your (moving) enemies together in one spot to make us of it, which is hard from the get go, and pretty much impossible with a long charging time. The totemic restricitons on top (being destroyable, immobile, cutting of/being cut of by other wind totems...it's over the top.

I used it in pve on garrosh for example. to stun people who got charmed.
in pvp you have to know how to use it. i find it very complicated and clunky to get the same result as shadow fury. you need aglyph and a talent to let it shine a little bit.
yes it needs some improvements. but comparing it to a rogues stun is loughable. stuns are a major par of ogues design...

]So because our utility happens to be shared with several others is what justifies them to be weaker? Doesn't make any sense.

lets see you compare the tools one shaman has with tools where you would need a warrior, a hunter, a paladin a rogue for (if I use your examples you sed for comparision.
perhaps that english isn't my first languae is a barrier here. one single shaman combines the tools where you would need multiple other classes for.
don't you see this as an advantage?
I mean you have a very pvp centric pov and compare mostly 1 vs 1 without looking at the group support. of course shaman has a disdvantage in 1 vs 1. I think his base design is for group playing.

It works with Stampede though. All you have to do is the first pet you summon to be the "leader", and have it under your control. The following pets will then be the, well, "followers", and assume the pet assist function, attacking whatever the first pet attacks. Simple. Once the leader dies, the "second in line" will take the leader role.
As for abilities: Damage attacks do not need to be on the bar and Empower and Reinforce could be merged. Assuming both PE and SET, we'd have in our pet bar, assuming all three would be active at the very same time: Harden Skin, Pulverize, Reinforce, and Gale Winds
Eye of the Storm is an passive effect, so no need of putting that in the bar either. Four skill should fit in a pet bar no problem. A problem might be Call Lightning though, as it is a casted spell and PE SET giving that speed aura would make us want them not to cast it while chasing someone, as we would lose the aura...would five spells fit into a pet bar?

well if stampede works this way it could work. but I don't think everyting is setup so get your stampede version of elmentals work, especially the merge of the pet bars. besides the raw damage they deal they have some buff casts which are important for restro for example. but as you said it is not that important.

[Omanley]

First and foremost, yes, my concerns are mostly about pvp. Always pvp pov. Why? Because pvp has higher standards towards an ability, and therefor should be the measuring stick. Blizz does the opposite whenever shamans are concerned. That's why dps shamans suck in pvp in terms of toolkit, and are mostly based on wether or not they can global, not control or long time pressure people.
BLizz can make CPT or Hex or totems in general as shitty as they want, it wont affect pve much. But in pvp it will ruin your day. I'm not really sure wether or not you pvp, based on that you didn't consider pvp pov in the first place, so I dont know wether discussing this further has any point, but oh well.

it is weaker that you need a glyph to let it reflect, that is true. and also it breaks after one reflect, not sure about spell reflect
but grounding has a group benefit. it reflects one spell that was targeted on one of your group...

The glyph is not only unavaiable due to mandatory glyphs, it also considerably raises GT's cd, so getting that reflect is a disadvantage of itself. Both abilities break after one spell is absorbed, GT used to not be broken by non-damaging spells, which was its upside when compared to reflect, but that's gone. You're correct though in that warrior reflect does only work on himself (at least from the tooltip). My understanding was that it worked like GT in that regard. Point taken. I guess this justifies GT not having a reflect, but not being destroyable/wandable and restricted by other totems of the same element. Spell Reflection no longer requires a shield or defensive stance, so no longer being tied by totem restrictions would be fair, dont you think?

in pvp multiple fears are very common if you play against a warlock (and here with no cd you woud make is fear non existent). in pve it is right, there is mostly one with a longer cd. so tremor would be up again.

Multiple fears yes, multiple aoe fears no.

but the whole benefit is that you can get out the whole group out of fear. berserker is just for the warrior...
you jus lok at "it can remove the fear on me" and don't see the big picture of it
you can' use it while silenced cause of the big pvp nerf to shamans (and I still wai for a compensation)
the buffs a warrio gets doesn't mater, the totem is to remove fear. and by the way it also get you out of sleep effects like hunters sleep poison. does berserke provides this too?

Yes, the whole benefit is the aoe part, and it is balanced by a doubled cooldown, as I said. The totem restrictions are an unfair extra. And you can wait another ten years and wont see compensation for the totem nerf. Blizz steamrolled shaman complains like ten times about that nerf, just how they steamroll ele complains about lb on the move.
Berserker doesn't remove sleep, but incapacitate, so it's a tie on that front.

it is a smart heal. with a talent and a glyph you can also get incoming reduced elemental damage buff and it heals 2 persons at once.
in pve one of heal spells with the most healing done for doing nothing.

HST is a dumb heal from WoD onwards. It will heal random targets instead of the most injured ones. And the glyph and talent are useless even now, not even mentioning WoD when HST is nerfed.

hand of fredom is sinle traget and I guess it has a cd.
wind walk is for the whole raid. don't know why it is so important for you that is is immobile? pvp pov?
the conflict with the elemental is a good point. for pve I think it doesn't matter as you use it rarely. and it might be reason to use totemic persistance.
from pvp pov the hand is stronger yes. but from pve pov I see wwt in front if multiple persons need it at the same time.
and with a talten you could reset the cd.

A freedom ability shouldn't be stationary, that's as much common sense as pets not being tied to immobility.
WWT in pve is entirely up to the encounter. If blizz doesn't throw around aoe roots in encounters, WWT will see as much as Tremor.

I used it in pve on garrosh for example. to stun people who got charmed.
in pvp you have to know how to use it. i find it very complicated and clunky to get the same result as shadow fury. you need aglyph and a talent to let it shine a little bit.
yes it needs some improvements. but comparing it to a rogues stun is loughable. stuns are a major par of ogues design...

I dont see a justification for CPT design bad because it was put to use in a couple of situations. There are not many aoe stuns. There are three, two of which are equally bad designed (CPT + Remorseless Winter) and Shadow Fury. I dont really see a problem comparing to single target stuns though, since
1) the duration is closer to each other (you dont go for a kill during a 3s stun, usually)
2) the majority of stuns is single target, so ofc I compare to the majority
3) It doesn't make a difference to which class you compare it. A mage, or pally/dk who got the talent for it can stun on the same level as a rogue. All stuns will share a diminishing return, so stunlocking is a thing of the past anyway. Rogue stuns got as much homogenisized as interrupts, snares and gap closers. Imo, comparing CPT to Kidney makes for me as much sense as comparing TT to Berserker Rage.

perhaps that english isn't my first languae is a barrier here. one single shaman combines the tools where you would need multiple other classes for.
don't you see this as an advantage?

And as I said: These classes that have similar abilities to us, but better, also have abilities that WE dont have. Your argument point is basically: There are ten abilities and shamans have them all, hence they have to be weaker.
The reality though is more like: There are 30 kinds of tools, 10 of which shamans possess. Some of these happen to be possessed by others. The other 20 abilities though other classes share with each other, and we are out of the loop.

How many classes have battle resets for instance? Ice Block, Dispersion, Deterrence...shaman not among them
How many classes have finisher abilities? Execute, Kill Shot, Shadow Word: Death...shaman not among them
How many classes have crazy mobility as a melee we cant begin to touch, even if we got a~25-30s gap closer tool? Warriors, Druids, Monks...enhance is a snail in comparison
How many classes have crazy ranged mobility we cant begin to touch? Hunters, Mages, Warlocks...ele is easy tunnel target

Shamans share some tools with others, but have them inferior. But they are not the combination of all others and dwarf their utility. Others have their stuff we dont have. Totems being weak is not justified, and totems are supposed to be our signature ability. It being weak means shaman's signature is weakness.

I mean you have a very pvp centric pov and compare mostly 1 vs 1 without looking at the group support. of course shaman has a disdvantage in 1 vs 1. I think his base design is for group playing.

In pvp (arena, rated bg) you have groups as well. Disregarding shamans as a supporter was fine in tbc days, but nowadays that concept is outdated. Yes my pov is pvp centric, because pve hardly matters in that regard, as I pointed out.

-Monster usually do not instantly stomp your totems, or run away so that you outrange them
-Monsters do not run away all the time and kite you, so you dont need as good mobility
-Monsters do not focus on the weakest target, but the one with the highest threat, so survivability isn't as important
...and so on

Take hex in pve vs pvp for example. In pve, it lasts for a minute and nobody interrupts you. In pvp it lasts a couple of seconds and suddenly it having both a cd AND cast time makes it problematic. Also in pve the forg jumps around like with poly, while in pvp he for some dumb reason he is allowed to move as he wishes.
You said it yourself: CPT needs talent/glyph to make it shine in pvp. That's the case for half of the shaman toolkit, which is why I make my suggestions.

well if stampede works this way it could work. but I don't think everyting is setup so get your stampede version of elmentals work, especially the merge of the pet bars. besides the raw damage they deal they have some buff casts which are important for restro for example. but as you said it is not that important.

The buff casts for resto are reinforce and empower, which I suggested could be merged. The cd could be usable twice before it triggers the cooldown though, in case you multiple elementals out(that said, the importance of these spells in WoD will likely be reshuffled anyway). The pet bars wouldn't be merged. You simply have an "elemental bar", and based on which elementals are present, the according spells are avaiable.

[Deleted]

Totemic Persistence is golden for pvp i also find it good on my resto shaman

[Nebria]

First and foremost, yes, my concerns are mostly about pvp. Always pvp pov. Why? Because pvp has higher standards towards an ability, and therefor should be the measuring stick. Blizz does the opposite whenever shamans are concerned. That's why dps shamans suck in pvp in terms of toolkit, and are mostly based on wether or not they can global, not control or long time pressure people.
BLizz can make CPT or Hex or totems in general as shitty as they want, it wont affect pve much. But in pvp it will ruin your day. I'm not really sure wether or not you pvp, based on that you didn't consider pvp pov in the first place, so I dont know wether discussing this further has any point, but oh well.

I do both, pve and pvp. pvp mosly arena 2vs2 (yes I love the pain) and 3vs3 but at a low rating^^ geting my cap and have some good time with team mates.
but it needs some effort to get the weekly cap and it is not uncommon do get in rage when you once again faced some melee heavy teams^^

The glyph is not only unavaiable due to mandatory glyphs, it also considerably raises GT's cd, so getting that reflect is a disadvantage of itself. Both abilities break after one spell is absorbed, GT used to not be broken by non-damaging spells, which was its upside when compared to reflect, but that's gone. You're correct though in that warrior reflect does only work on himself (at least from the tooltip). My understanding was that it worked like GT in that regard. Point taken. I guess this justifies GT not having a reflect, but not being destroyable/wandable and restricted by other totems of the same element. Spell Reflection no longer requires a shield or defensive stance, so no longer being tied by totem restrictions would be fair, dont you think?

I get you point. the problem is they are different skill with different mechanics, no matter that you get the same result. so blizzard will never chane on if the other is changed. to be hinest I never use the glyph for reflection because I have other which are more valueable and the increased cd is just dump.
so perhapse they could change the glyph or change the totem to just reflect it. would be a nice buff. I'm fine that it is a totem.
by the way a warrior can spec into mass spell reflect which reflects any spell that is casted to his group or raid.

but back to glyphs. I think that we have to use glyphs to make our spells good is a big disadvantage. if you look into the glyph book we have so much glyphs that are usefull especially for pvp. compare it to other classes where it doesn't mater at all what glyph you use.
absolutly something blizzard should take a look at.

Multiple fears yes, multiple aoe fears no.

but the point is I can get my healer out of fear. the warrior can't.

And you can wait another ten years and wont see compensation for the totem nerf. Blizz steamrolled shaman complains like ten times about that nerf, just how they steamroll ele complains about lb on the move.

it is just if I get a silence I can do absolutly nothing. everything is a spell. before you could do ground, or shield. well I think it gets easier with wod and the cc changes.

And as I said: These classes that have similar abilities to us, but better, also have abilities that WE dont have. Your argument point is basically: There are ten abilities and shamans have them all, hence they have to be weaker.
The reality though is more like: There are 30 kinds of tools, 10 of which shamans possess. Some of these happen to be possessed by others. The other 20 abilities though other classes share with each other, and we are out of the loop.

How many classes have battle resets for instance? Ice Block, Dispersion, Deterrence...shaman not among them
How many classes have finisher abilities? Execute, Kill Shot, Shadow Word: Death...shaman not among them
How many classes have crazy mobility as a melee we cant begin to touch, even if we got a~25-30s gap closer tool? Warriors, Druids, Monks...enhance is a snail in comparison
How many classes have crazy ranged mobility we cant begin to touch? Hunters, Mages, Warlocks...ele is easy tunnel target

and now you bring new classes onto the table. if you make a spreadsheet and compare what who has you will see that shamans have a lot of tools.
so perhaps our tools are medicore because we have to much. or we just have the wrong ones we could need ourself.

-Monster usually do not instantly stomp your totems, or run away so that you outrange them

I remeber some fight where the boss killed my totem all the time^^ wasn't fun but got fixed.
and you have a big issue with elementals because they are bound to the totem
so even in pve not everything is fine

[Omanley]

I could see Grounding seeing some use if they removed the drawback. Then again, I dont see it happening. And yes, there's to many ability-fix glyphs, as well as mandatory glyphs. Feeling that you have to glyph an ability so that it works/is competitive, or having to take a glyph because it is just that much stronger than the others, is not fun and doesn't promote customisation, nor decision making. I had hopes when they mentioned auto-learned glyphs that the mentioned ones would become baseline, as LS and HS were among them, but alas, not happening. Them adding the FT snare to it made me even more depressed.

And yes, TT's aoe effect can at times make a real difference. For that, it has twice the cd. The other drawbacks are to much.

Yes, the silence nerf....Before, enh was hardly impacted by silences. Now, you can counter their entire toolkit for the duration. Hard to say with WoD/cc. The biggest impact will be through more shared diminished returns, so cc stacking is less useful, and cc-weak classes like shamans are less impacted by not providing high quality stuff. Instant hex baseline for enh would've still been great now that msw does no longer benefit it.

Well, actually the "new classes" were already brought in before, as I compared totems to other tools. And I never said shamans dont have a lot of tools. But so have others.

Yes, there are times when totems go on one's nerves in pve as well. I noticed that especially when doing solo dungeons, where my dps totems got destroyed all the time. And well, since you're not dependent on the totem talent much, you can use projection instead. Enh/ele pve dont benefit much from Persistance anyway, and finishing totem cooldowns isn't that important in pve either. You're right though, it is annoying.

[Chazzwozzer]

First and foremost, yes, my concerns are mostly about pvp. Always pvp pov. Why? Because pvp has higher standards towards an ability, and therefor should be the measuring stick. Blizz does the opposite whenever shamans are concerned. That's why dps shamans suck in pvp in terms of toolkit, and are mostly based on wether or not they can global, not control or long time pressure people.......

I don't with to make it seem like I'm singling you out, but I wish you would refrain from posting these comments about shaman's inferior pvp toolkits. You keep trying to promote this false idea that shaman's are lacking in pvp, when it is simply not true. Your main method of proving this false idea is to list a number of abilities from other classes, which has no bearing on shaman viability, and then try to incorrectly state that shaman abilities are inferior..

Shamans do not "suck in pvp in terms of toolkit." They are in fact one of the best classes in terms of utility. The shaman toolkit is so effective that it makes resto shamans one of the best healers in the game. For other healers to be tier one viable, it often requires a dps shaman on the team to supplement the healer toolkit (mistweaver viability is greatly increased when playing with ele/enhance, and resto druid is not tier one viable unless playing with a shaman or a mage). The large majority of tier one viable comps in the game involve either resto or dps shamans (the exceptions being resto druid/mage/x, and warrior/mage/mistweaver).

All that being said, a revamp of the level 45 talents would certainly be welcome from a quality of life perspective. In pve, dps shamans basically only take Totemic Projection. Conversely in pvp, shamans of all specs almost exclusively take Call of the Elements (contrary to the suggestion that Totemic Persistence is good in pvp - there are no top shamans that will pick this talent as either resto or dps). It is not an interesting talent tier if basically everyone is picking the same talent from the list, and it is picked due to that talent being clearly superior to the other options.

It would be a nice quality of life change for Projection to be made baseline and offer some other substantial totem talent, or to make Projection baseline and scrap the totem tier entirely in favor of mobility talents. However, Blizz has already stated that they like the idea of a Totem enhancing tier, so the latter is not likely to happen.

[Jacob6875]

This is an extremely boring tier of talents in my opinion.

As Elemental I stick with projection, something that should have been made baseline a long time ago (like hunters). Being able to move Stormlash and Healing Tide into the middle of the raid is great.

Next Expansion this tier is just useless though:

Projection - With the removal of Healing Tide and Stormlash what are you going to use it on? I guess you can save a GCD every once in a while by moving searing totem in fights where the boss moves !!!

Persistence - I can't really think of 2 totems in the same tier I would drop at once in any boss fight in PvE

Call of the Elements - Could be useful if we need to cast Tremor twice in a short period of time or something (aka last boss of HoF) but outside of maybe 1 gimmick boss it will be completely useless.

I don't see how Blizzard is fine with a tier that you can not even put a talent point into and it will not negatively effect you in any way.

[Jinryu]

All that being said, a revamp of the level 45 talents would certainly be welcome from a quality of life perspective. In pve, dps shamans basically only take Totemic Projection. Conversely in pvp, shamans of all specs almost exclusively take Call of the Elements (contrary to the suggestion that Totemic Persistence is good in pvp - there are no top shamans that will pick this talent as either resto or dps). It is not an interesting talent tier if basically everyone is picking the same talent from the list, and it is picked due to that talent being clearly superior to the other options.

I can't speak for Elemental Shamans, but projection is pretty useless for enhance in PvE. Then again pretty much the whole tier is useless. I can easily raid the whole tier without using any of the talents Lvl 45 talents.

[Chazzwozzer]

I can't speak for Elemental Shamans, but projection is pretty useless for enhance in PvE. Then again pretty much the whole tier is useless. I can easily raid the whole tier without using any of the talents Lvl 45 talents.

For elemental shamans in PvE, it is mostly used to relocate HTT and Stormlash so that they affect the entire raid, as pointed out by another poster. For enhance, it is useful in that rare situation that you have to move searing totem across the room (eg Lei Shen). For both specs, it is useful to relocate Capacitor Totem when necessary (eg stunning adds in the first transition of HM Garrosh).

Even with these somewhat insignificant uses, Projection is the obvious choice for dps shamans in PvE because the other talents are so useless. This is the reason that people complain that the talent tier is so uninteresting.

In PvP, it is a separate complaint - not that the tier is uninteresting due to talents being useless (Projection would actually be a fun talent to use in pvp), but rather that Call of the Elements is so much better than the other options that there isn't really any choice in the matter.

[Deleted]

Sorry, but I just cant let the hovering totems idea go. This is something which doesnt only sound amazing but would truely bring a QoL effect to this rotten class, and also bring us to 2014 standards in one way.

[Omanley]

I don't with to make it seem like I'm singling you out, but I wish you would refrain from posting these comments about shaman's inferior pvp toolkits. You keep trying to promote this false idea that shaman's are lacking in pvp, when it is simply not true. Your main method of proving this false idea is to list a number of abilities from other classes, which has no bearing on shaman viability, and then try to incorrectly state that shaman abilities are inferior..

Shamans do not "suck in pvp in terms of toolkit." They are in fact one of the best classes in terms of utility. The shaman toolkit is so effective that it makes resto shamans one of the best healers in the game. For other healers to be tier one viable, it often requires a dps shaman on the team to supplement the healer toolkit (mistweaver viability is greatly increased when playing with ele/enhance, and resto druid is not tier one viable unless playing with a shaman or a mage). The large majority of tier one viable comps in the game involve either resto or dps shamans (the exceptions being resto druid/mage/x, and warrior/mage/mistweaver).

The thing is: How can you say totem restrictions are okay? Have you, as a shaman, ever encountered someone who relentlessly, destroyed totem after totem? He essentially one shots the majority of your utility, just like that. If you really know how shamans work, and how they rely on totems, you will target and destroy totems as soon as they are down, and shamans will be in the dirt, simple as that. Even some high ranked players leave totems alone, and just power through (and often enough, win even with that). Because of that, people tend to think shaman utility is super strong however, if you really focus on getting rid of them, the shaman's out of luck.

I'm for the most part complaining about the format of totems as being universally immobile, universally restricted by elements, universally destroyable/5p, and universally unusable during silence. But every totem does something entirely different, and needs individual design. You say shaman utility is awesome, but if you ice lance an Earthbind, it is gone. The hunter trap or mage ring is still there though. How can you say it is perfectly fine and super strong? You're writing your stuff under the assumption that people will always leave totems alone, but that's not the case. And for people leaving them alone anyway, some becoming undestroyable, or mobile, or unrestricted in usage, what's the difference?

This is mostly not about buffing shaman utility effect strenght, the effects are the same. It is about QoL implementations, making totems an exciting asset and not a handycap. Totems are supposed to be an interesting mechanic, no matter how you cut it. The reason this talent tier is so horrible is because totems are horrible, and require the things blizz has put into this tier. Totems need a higher baseline quality, not buffed effects. I'm not asking to get advantages matching the disadvantages, the effect would be to strong if enemies ignored totems, and the dependancy on totems and the frustration upon seeing them stomped even greater. I'm asking to tone down some general unreasonable restrictions and some restrictions based on totems.
It's about quality of life. It's the same with our buffs, which were totems before, and considered simply the worst buffs in game. Totems are a bad mechanic still. Just making everything into spells doesn't treat the illness, it's just treating the symptoms.

Shaman utility is good at the core(the effects), it's the rotten skin(totem design) that needs to be peeled off and replaced.

[Chazzwozzer]

The thing is: How can you say totem restrictions are okay? Have you, as a shaman, ever encountered someone who relentlessly, destroyed totem after totem? He essentially one shots the majority of your utility, just like that. If you really now how shamans work, and how they rely on totems, you will target and destroy totems as soon as they are down, and shamans will be in the dirt, simple as that.

This is just not true. It is true that a high level of play, players will actively target totems in order to destroy them. However, effectively killing totems doesn't put shamans "in the dirt."

A large number of these totems can be destroyed, and it will not decrease the effectiveness of shaman utility. For example, if a hunter used Narrow Escape to force Windwalk from a shaman, then he can kill the totem - but everyone is already freed from the root effect. If he used Wyvern to force tremor, then he can kill the tremor - but the target is already out of the sleep effect.

I don't make any of my posts under the assumption that people will always leave totems alone. I do know how shamans really work, and I know how players work against shamans. I have refrained from posting pvp experience in the past, because I don't believe that one necessarily has to play the game at a high level to understand the game. But since you have insinuated that I don't know shamans, or that I make claims under the assumption that players don't kill totems - I have played both resto and ele shaman to glad in each of the past five seasons (all end of season titles came from resto, but I could have sat rating as ele if I wished). I have also played disc/shadow to glad in season 11 and 14, and lock/enhance/mage/hpally/rdruid to high ratings as well.

As any dps spec, I make it a priority to kill totems such as HST and HTT as quickly as possible, and it certainly doesn't just put shamans "in the dirt." It is a part of good gameplay to kill totems as soon as possible, but it doesn't make shamans significantly less viable in doing so.

Also, the effective usage of totems and their placing is part of the skill cap involved in playing shaman, especially as restoration. If you place a HST right in the open and it is killed instantly, then it is not the result of bad shaman design, but rather poor gameplay on the part of the shaman.

Your claim that "totems are horrible" is also just not true. Totems are amazingly potent, as seen by the fact that top players make it a priority to kill totems as soon as possible. Healing Stream Totem and Tremor are borderline overpowered. I think both probably warrant a nerf, and this is coming from a player who mains a resto shaman. Healing stream alone allows resto shamans to sit cc that most any other healer would have to trinket (or the teammate would have to use a defensive cd). Conversely when not in cc, it allows you to use globals offensively where other healers would have to spam healing spells.

I think I've spent too much time discussing the usefulness of totems and the shaman toolkit. I just tire of seeing posts about how totems are a "bad mechanic" or a "handycap." The only totem which I believe suffers from poor design is Capacitor Totem (and it is still useful nonetheless), and I think its poor design would mostly be remedied by providing Totemic Projection baseline. Ultimately, this discussion is intended to be about the level 45 talent tier, which I agree is lackluster and uninteresting. The talent tier isn't horrible because totems are horrible though. It is just an uninteresting tier because none of the talents are particularly useful for dps shamans in PvE, and because CoTE is so superior in PvP that no other talents can be picked.

[Omanley]

Not a large number, all totems are destroyable. And while some totems grant some upfront benefit like WWT/SBT/EGT and the like, a big/the biggest part of the utility is lost when destroyed early. Other abilities are counterable as well, but require offensive dispelling, which is much more exclusive than just auto hitting something.

Take rogue utility for instance. The entire toolkit is impervious to dispell, silence or being otherwise counterable. It is mobile without exception, doesn't lock itself out and works perfectly without glyphs or talents. Rogue toolkit is an obviously strong asset. Now if it were destroyable like totems, players would do so. Not because of the strenght of the toolkit, but because they are able to do so, and it puts the other at an disadvantage.
Totems get stomped because it puts the shaman at an disadvantage, not because they are particularly strong compared with other stuff that is without counter, or requires a trinket or dispell.
A top player would destroy Evasion, Ice Block and Travel Form if he could. But he cant. Being "amazingly potent" apparently only justifies easily counterable for certain classes, I suppose. Or are you saying totems actually trump other utility? Because there are hardly unique attributes to the effects they provide.
Totems can, without exception, destroyed by everyone. Some totems deserve that restriction, others dont, like Earthbind. HTT deserves being destroyable, but why need Elementals be easily killable by targeting totems? Why need mobile elementals be tied to immobile sticks? Why would Searing, which is basically a warlock imp, need to be immobile?
The answer is simple: Blizz is lazy and simply makes everything the same.

The tier being uninteresting because it doesn't benefit pve dps much is certainly a big factor, but just consider this:
Let's say you're a rogue, and suddenly blizzard decides that every rogue cd would clip every other that runs at the moment you use it.
Also you suddenly can no longer use your cooldowns while silenced.
Let's say they then introduce a talent tier with one option that allows you to use two rogue cds at the same, and another to use cooldowns while silenced. The other talent is comparable in character.

Rogues would be furious about the unreasonable nerf, and complain about a bad talent tier(rightly so).
The restrictions in question wouldn't affect pve much, but for the sake of making a point, let's pretend for a second it would.
Do you think rogues would happily take the talent(s) to get rid of the restriction again and be back at where you started? No, they would be pissed, because blizz put into a talent tier stuff that is supposed to be baseline. The same is the case with shamans. Those restrictions are relics from classic where totems had completely different design: long duration and no cooldown. With changing them to short duration/long cd spells and homogenisizing a lot of our spells towards others, or change our spells to be more similar to theirs, being destroyable suddenly is a much harsher restriction, and no longer justifyable. Same with the elemental restrictions, which were put into place to hinder shamans from having a dozen buff totems up at the same time => buff totems are gone though.

And totem design is a very important aspect considering the totem tier, so it is important for the talent discussion, I'd say.

And it wasn't my intention to question your experience as a pvper, but to highlight the biggest part of our utility being subject to several big drawbacks at the absence of any big plusses, which would be needed to make them balanced.

-A shaman wants to pillar kite and has his totem removed, a hunter puts down a trap and it cannot be removed.
-A paladin is 6/25 immune to movement impairment, a shaman has 6/60 (because aoe) and has that additionally restricted in duration if its detroyed.
-Another class might cast a shield spell, and unless someone with an offensive dispell is around, it has to be powered through. SBT (even requires a talent) can be one shot and is gone just like that though, and depends on living for a while to show full effect, which may also result in clipping that spell with another earth totem

Shamans are the class of exceptions. Almost at every corner, blizz makes an exception and designes us differently. Hex not taking control, totems in general, enh aoe, enh hard casting, you name it. Totems are a relic from the past where this individuality between classes was emphasised and the norm. It's no longer the norm though. The norm is called homogenisationized standards, with slight differences here and there. Warriors no longer have stance restrictions, just as an example, and they were on a comparable class defining level as totems are. Stance dancing wasn't a very competitive concept, just like totems.

If you're saying totems are good, surely you can tell me some really big disadvantages a skill would have being a totem vs a regular spell.

Yes CPT is certainly the worst totem. I guess the reason why you find it poorly designed and not the others is that it procides zero benefit if destroyed prior to detonation, where other totems benefit at least a small fraction of their use.

Totems in general are
-easy to counter
-inconvienient
-restrictive
-equal/weaker in effect than comparable abilities
-outdated and archaic

The best thing which could happen to shamans atm would be if totems as a mechanic were abolished. They're just that bad. I dont want that though. I want them reasonably usable, from a QoL pov.

[Lavindar]

Hey guys, lets tone down the suggestions and class comparison and focus on T45 feedback on this topic.

Anyway, I have read your feedback and added what was not mentioned somehow by me before and edited the first post, anyway, here what I added:

About Totemic Persistence:

Something that was noted is that in WoD this talent will have only one water totem, for Resto this is not an issue.

Another point that this talent makes more clear whit the system of only one element is that we have the effect of what I call negative synergy, in the earth element, with Stone Bulwark, Earthgrab, and Primal Elementalist, all focusing long cooldowns.

About the tier in general:

The tier also can have the feeling that even if you don't pick any of the talents, it would not affect your performace, this is mostly a PvE thing, as the tier has more chances to be used in PvP.

-- --

I will way some more days, so lets try and think what more we can say about the tier, then I will get the feedback and post it on the official forums.

And again, lets focus of T45 feedback on this topic.

Edit: English is not my native language, so if you guys see any mistakes I would like you guys point it so I can correct them.

[Elios]

I like this tier... i dont know why you guys dont... i change every single fight in SOO...

Dont know why so much hate.