The many things I wish I could have as demo...

[Leolis]

I guess part of this is a slight QQ post but also a wishlist. Before I go on my main is a 577 Ret Pally and my primary alt being my Warlock is a 527 Demo lock. I read up on demonology a lot and have followed it for quite some time. Part of me just always had this wishful view of playing as the demon when I play this spec kinda like how I had this "crusader" type deal with the Pally, ironically Diablo 3 gave me that feel and I thank them for that. Anyways to the point, I would like to see something around the lines of how a passive Metamorph could occur if at all.

Right now we have two sets of rotation, the Fury generator rotation and the fury dump. What makes me sad is I feel like what I should be doing gameplay wise just isnt happening and the only time I feel "one with the demon" is when i do DA mode during bits of solo play.

In vanilla for me it was: Power yourself and your demons and use both Shadow and Fire.
BC: Gain a superior demon and the same as above.
Wrath: Now you can turn into a demon while fighting with superior demons
Cata: Same as above
MoP: Gain superior demons but more options when you turn into one.

Slowly it just appears we are going down that "illidan" path where we are becoming the demon within.

What I would want to see as stated is a way to actually have Metamorph be a passive type deal that we can go into and out freely.

Right now our generators: Corruption, Imps, Minion, Shadowbolt, Soulfire, Drain Life, Fel Flame, Hand of Gul'dan
Our Consumers: Doom, Touch of Chaos, Soulfire, Chaos Wave, Immolation Aura etc etc

So what if it were to appear like this
-Doom and Corruption merged together OR Corruption and Doom were both usable in demon mode.
-Shadow Bolt and Touch of Chaos separate as in both could be cast while in the form OR perhaps the Touch generated Fury and a possible it could actually apply corruption.
-Soulfire and Chaos Wave could act as primary dumps and there could be a way to make Hand of Gul'dan separate from Chaos Wave
-Immolation Aura would overtake Hellfire and could either remain an AoE dump OR generate fury.
-The Aura's such as elements etc could both be toggled as passives.

Theoretically speaking this is what you could see.
-Touch of Chaos, Hand of Gul'dan to generate, potentially Shadow Bolt/Drain Life as well.
-Chaos Waves and Soul Fire to dump

In addition you have your demon doing DPS but as we see there will be a way to get passive Abyssal/Infernal and Terrorguard/Doom Guard. If this is the case then sacrificing them should also impact your rotation as well. Like perhaps the Abyssal could give you a new AoE option or the Doom Guard could give you a new Fury dump.

If you don't use them you also then have cataclysm in the mix or Demon Bolt as well.

In terms of balance with mastery and high numbers they would have to be tuned lower since Metamorph is supposed to be a burst button at this moment.

To finish, I am not a pro lock by any means, I play demonology because it is fun but I just wish I could be forever in demonform when I play. I feel that would be amazing and fun for me. I know I am not the only one that thinks this but I was wondering your thoughts on the matter and in turn how a post on the blizzard forums would go and if this is a good idea how could people get them to listen?

[Alarinth]

From an aesthetic PoV, I get how you could want to be in metamorphosis permanently. The only fix I see to this is to get a glyph that alters the appearance of Dark Apotheosis, or just flat out change it.

From a gameplay PoV, the suggestions you're making now would be horrible if they went through. Demonology currently works very well, it has a very fluid and flexible rotation, the most flexible of all 3. I can't think of a lot of changes I'd suggest myself, except for removing snapshoting (which they're doing anyway, so yay on that one!). If we were permanently in metamorphosis, then being a demon would be just as powerful as being a hunter... or a rogue... or a shadowpriest... or a mage... They'd balance around it being the norm, meaning using demonic powers to actually morph into one would mean nothing.

That's the lore/aesthetic aspect I dislike of this idea.
The gameplay ramifications of the above would mean we would either lose all our burt, or we'd lose all damage outside metamorphosis (even more so than at the moment).

[striderZA]

What I would want to see as stated is a way to actually have Metamorph be a passive type deal that we can go into and out freely.

Probably just the wording, but you can already pop in and out of meta as you please. Permanent meta would make it not as awesome though, as it'll need balancing around that and thus is would be much less powerful.

One thing I really like about Demonology is being able to pop into meta when a ton of CDs and procs align and just destroy things. The on-demand destruction is tons of fun.

[Nighthaven-]

I find the standard non-proc/ boost meta damage quite pathetic since they removed Meta melee because they couldn't bother fixing Wand auto-attack. ToC vs Shadowbolt.
With low initial mastery the next expansion ToC and Shadow-bolt non-proc is going to be almost the same dps.

[Deleted]

I really don't think demo needs any changing, I think it's right now the most well designed spec in the game, and for me the most enjoyable. I agree while perma meta would seem cool at first we'd quickly grow tired of it..

[Skayth]

I really don't think demo needs any changing, I think it's right now the most well designed spec in the game, and for me the most enjoyable. I agree while perma meta would seem cool at first we'd quickly grow tired of it..

quite wrong actually. It will become a broken mess come WoD. Currently, its a fury starved spec, that is based on Boomkins "eclipse." It is quite the mess, since it was, I believe the 3rd or 4th version of the spec that was made up simply for mists.

It is enjoyable. But it sucks as well. Being fury starved to the point of spamming shadow bolts for a long time is not fun. And if you go to that ludicrous haste point, 14k? then ToC feels weak. They need to fix fury generation, and Demonbolt is not a fix. Nor is a single damn fury added to corruption.

[Leolis]

Yea, I see both points of view here and that is an issue I do have is just that Fury starvation >< it really really sucks.

[Onigumo]

I like how some of the people against perma meta are like it wouldn't be fun even though they don't play the spec.

The issue is balancing perma meta, really. And as someone who actually "plays" Demo I'd prefer they just fix the fury regeneration. Demo is both fun and unfun in that you run around trying to build up fury while doing crap damage.

From an aesthetic PoV, I get how you could want to be in metamorphosis permanently. The only fix I see to this is to get a glyph that alters the appearance of Dark Apotheosis, or just flat out change it.

From a gameplay PoV, the suggestions you're making now would be horrible if they went through. Demonology currently works very well,

No it isn't, it's the worst specs locks have to do to clunky mechanics and unreliable damage.

[Lucidious]

I think shadow bolt cast time should be reduced and that's really the only change I feel the spec needs. 2 sec base cast time since we will no longer have Fel flame. Mostly a pvp related change I know but still will be needed to not get locked out so often in pvp in WOD.

[Leolis]

Hmm... well the main issue seems to be Fury Generation and a Passive Metamorph would help with that but we could have a huge bursty dump like we do now but its more controllable for us that is how I view it.

If not then maybe Haste can have a direct effect on lets say a what if passive Fury Generation?

[Challenge]

I really dislike doom not being usable in caster form and corruption in meta form. Also I overall spells should generate more fury, feels too slow

[Alarinth]

quite wrong actually. It will become a broken mess come WoD. Currently, its a fury starved spec, that is based on Boomkins "eclipse." It is quite the mess, since it was, I believe the 3rd or 4th version of the spec that was made up simply for mists.

It is enjoyable. But it sucks as well. Being fury starved to the point of spamming shadow bolts for a long time is not fun. And if you go to that ludicrous haste point, 14k? then ToC feels weak. They need to fix fury generation, and Demonbolt is not a fix. Nor is a single damn fury added to corruption.

Yea, I see both points of view here and that is an issue I do have is just that Fury starvation >< it really really sucks.

Hmm... well the main issue seems to be Fury Generation and a Passive Metamorph would help with that but we could have a huge bursty dump like we do now but its more controllable for us that is how I view it.

If not then maybe Haste can have a direct effect on lets say a what if passive Fury Generation?

You're all basing your assumptions on what I can only deduce is lacking information. Did you even look at the Draenor perks?

• Empowered Doom: Your Doom has an additional 20% critical strike chance.
• Enhanced Corruption: Your Corruption generates 1 additional Demonic Fury each time it deals damage.
• Improved Molten Core: Molten Core reduces the cast time and mana cost of Soul Fire by an additional 25%.
• Empowered Demons: Grants your demon pets an additional 10% haste and 10% critical strike chance.

All these will help quite a bit with fury generation. Currently demonology has very, very competitive single target damage (people are already pushing 480k damage against malkorok, a pure single target fight). We cannot expect all 3 of our specs to be as broken as Affliction, so what people are really complaining about in a spec that is able to compete at the top in overall class-wide damage, as the third out of three possible specs, is beyond me.

[Leolis]

At the top of the page I pretty much stated that well I am not all that good at Demo my ret is my main. I just look at what I have and it could be the gear, but the numbers I have just are not that good but then again 527 ilvl sure. I just had an opinion on the matter and I thought hey what do other players feel about this. Preferably the more skilled ones as Demo because I am not skilled. Nonetheless I should probably try again with the Demo spec and see how much better I do

[Skayth]

You're all basing your assumptions on what I can only deduce is lacking information. Did you even look at the Draenor perks?

• Empowered Doom: Your Doom has an additional 20% critical strike chance.
• Enhanced Corruption: Your Corruption generates 1 additional Demonic Fury each time it deals damage.
• Improved Molten Core: Molten Core reduces the cast time and mana cost of Soul Fire by an additional 25%.
• Empowered Demons: Grants your demon pets an additional 10% haste and 10% critical strike chance.

All these will help quite a bit with fury generation. Currently demonology has very, very competitive single target damage (people are already pushing 480k damage against malkorok, a pure single target fight). We cannot expect all 3 of our specs to be as broken as Affliction, so what people are really complaining about in a spec that is able to compete at the top in overall class-wide damage, as the third out of three possible specs, is beyond me.

Malkorok is not a pure single target fight. You want to HoG when all the adds are right next to the tank, to get as much fury generation as possible, then Dot Snapshotting BBoY (major part of this) with Doom... unless you are talking about normal... then I cannot even vamp up my dps before he goes poof and candy comes out of everything.

I did look at "the Perks" and with them it feels as though we are going to be forced into sacrifice, if we wish to keep up in fury generation. (the doom getting its extra 20% overlooks the % we sac for the crit we get for the pets)

But, these perks only "band aid" a slight fix... as it is, we are FURY STARVED if we do not go the 14k haste point. But that only makes us go into meta alot more. It does not increase our damage, rather it is pretty equal with the mastery build. The reason why we were not Fury starved through 5.2, and the beginning of 5.4 was because of the 100% crit doom and the amount of imps we were spawning, with the Imps giving us the fury generation. But because we do not have that trinket, we are back to being fury starved. Rather than bandaiding our "generation" with these things... because, even with these are generation will be slow.

Lets go through them shall we?

Doom: its good... yes, that spawns more imps.... hypothetically... and if you have crap rng... then not really. But it is fury generation non the less.
Corruption: Its just bad. Needs to be at least 5 to be good, but that is simply a band aid, when they simply should buff the amount of corruption's fury generation as it is.
Molten core: Well, currently with my 14k haste... its essentually the same thing... just less mana cost... whoop, even though I use them all in demo form. doesnt help fury generation nor take away fury from being used in demo form. Need to remember, we will not be able to hit this haste cap come next patch.... So, its a minor increase in caster form... nothing major
Demons: well, its bandaiding our current gear.

Through all of that... the fury generation will be minorly buffed. (todays standards.... not a reduced ilvl). But that is simply a band aid. WE need better fury generation BASELINE. Did they say we can have ALL the perks? or do we choose from them? because every spec has that USELESS drainlife perk. If we can only choose one or two, then its completely garbage, otherwise a simple minor buff that still needs to be added to.

Do I care if Warlock damage is top dps on parses? No. It makes it alot funner when I am whooping that mage in dps. But I do want our QOL fixed. Fury generation is a big thing. And if this is their band aid fix, then I hope whoever the class balancers are, are fired.

[Deleted]

All these will help quite a bit with fury generation. Currently demonology has very, very competitive single target damage (people are already pushing 480k damage against malkorok, a pure single target fight)..

Boosted by the 30+ imps you can get on pull from the dummies before Malk.. now if only my guild would stop wiping on the first pull every week because people cba getting into the zones...

On the topic of fury generation - personally I think it is completely fine as it is:

- At low gear levels (haste, without the derp crit trinket providing you ezmode fury gen) you use soulfire to generate fury faster and ToC.
- At much higher gear leves you have the luxury of saving your soulfires for burst ranges/procs.

Not sure many people played demo in the first tier of this expansion with lower gear/haste. If you complain about fury generation after starting to play it in ToT with the trinket it isn't really a good starting point to complain from.

[Jessicka]

You're all basing your assumptions on what I can only deduce is lacking information. Did you even look at the Draenor perks?

• Empowered Doom: Your Doom has an additional 20% critical strike chance.
• Enhanced Corruption: Your Corruption generates 1 additional Demonic Fury each time it deals damage.
• Improved Molten Core: Molten Core reduces the cast time and mana cost of Soul Fire by an additional 25%.
• Empowered Demons: Grants your demon pets an additional 10% haste and 10% critical strike chance.

All these will help quite a bit with fury generation. Currently demonology has very, very competitive single target damage (people are already pushing 480k damage against malkorok, a pure single target fight). We cannot expect all 3 of our specs to be as broken as Affliction, so what people are really complaining about in a spec that is able to compete at the top in overall class-wide damage, as the third out of three possible specs, is beyond me.

We also lose our bonus Crit from Intellect, which at current levels is about 12% Crit chance unbuffed and without a proc; with snapshotting and the Metagem gone, those perks are meaningless.

[Alarinth]

Did they say we can have ALL the perks? or do we choose from them? because every spec has that USELESS drainlife perk. If we can only choose one or two, then its completely garbage, otherwise a simple minor buff that still needs to be added to.

From what I gather, we will have all of them at level 90. On our way to 90, we will randomly get one per level until we do have all.

Molten core: Well, currently with my 14k haste... its essentually the same thing... just less mana cost... whoop, even though I use them all in demo form. doesnt help fury generation nor take away fury from being used in demo form. Need to remember, we will not be able to hit this haste cap come next patch.... So, its a minor increase in caster form... nothing major

Exactly - you won't need to be in 14k haste to have the effect of 14k haste. This allows you more focus on crit for fury generation.

We also lose our bonus Crit from Intellect, which at current levels is about 12% Crit chance without a proc; with snapshotting and the Metagem gone, those perks are meaningless.

I get where you are coming from with this, but even so this is tunnelvisioning on an aspect that may or may not be very relevant in WoD. We still don't know the interplay between cooldown reduction as a stat, and Grimoired pets as well as Imp Swarm. You are also comparing to a gameplay where a very high pace has become the defining trait (cooldownstacking, berserking, lifeblood, metagem, bloodlust, upwards of 50% haste-builds).

As the average across the board is going down in terms of every secondary stat, what these changes for sure will do, is give us strong boosts in the early tier as demo. You are no longer as dependant on crit to give you fury income as you are in WoD, and the 50% buff to fury generation from corruption goes a long way in making up for the lost breakpoints that caused additional ticks.

And your pets having 10% more haste is hardly meaningless, as every pet swing gives more fury? :P Am I missing something obvious here?

[Jessicka]

I'll add that even more laughable is that the concept for Demo's new Sacrifice would lead to even less Fury generation as we'd see even fewer Imps from Doom procs.

- - - Updated - - -

I get where you are coming from with this, but even so this is tunnelvisioning on an aspect that may or may not be very relevant in WoD. We still don't know the interplay between cooldown reduction as a stat, and Grimoired pets as well as Imp Swarm. You are also comparing to a gameplay where a very high pace has become the defining trait (cooldownstacking, berserking, lifeblood, metagem, bloodlust, upwards of 50% haste-builds).

It is purely compensatory for this very change. In all, with procs and proper snapshotting, your Doom will be critting something like 40% of the time anyway at this point; the Perk just about covers this. What it does not cover is the loss of ticks from the reduced number of Haste sources to snapshot.

As the average across the board is going down in terms of every secondary stat, what these changes for sure will do, is give us strong boosts in the early tier as demo. You are no longer as dependant on crit to give you fury income as you are in WoD, and the 50% buff to fury generation from corruption goes a long way in making up for the lost breakpoints that caused additional ticks.

Crit will be just as valuable a stat as it is now, if not moreso since you'll need Crit directly, rather than gaining it indirectly from Intellect in order to gain Fury in this way.

As for the 50% extra Fury from Corruption, you're looking at maybe between 200 and 300 additional Fury on an encounter. Probably less given the reduced sources of Haste (Bezerking, Meta gem etc).

And your pets having 10% more haste is hardly meaningless, as every pet swing gives more fury? :P Am I missing something obvious here?

Yes. 20%+ up time on your Metagem proc equates to about 6% Haste, so the reality is a sub 4% return from there. Again, factor in reduced Haste sources you noted, and the buff appears less significant again.

All in all, we're looking at roughly breaking even. For me, that's fine, I don't feel starved too often even at 8.1k Haste. Just don't try to sell these as significant buffs; they are not.

[Soulzar]

Perhaps they should give Doom the Nightfall treatment.

Your most recent Doom spawns an Imp every tick, which allows a nice flow of fury but does not get out of hand in multi target situations.

[Jessicka]

Perhaps they should give Doom the Nightfall treatment.

Your most recent Doom spawns an Imp every tick, which allows a nice flow of fury but does not get out of hand in multi target situations.

That would cripple the value of crit. They want to get stats closer together, and so far the spec works very well for that.