[6.0] Shadow Priest Discussion

[Drye]

+ new random one we don't know yet

[Dierdre]

+ new random one we don't know yet

I'm betting on enhanced mass dispel.

[Kaesebrezen]

+ new random one we don't know yet

Isn't it supposed to be only 4 perks for lvl 92,94,96,98 ?

[darthades]

I wish shadow had more defensive options even it means trading damage.

So basically in PvP if someone jumps on you, you just PW:S? what then? lol, no mending, no renew, no psyfiend, no divine star healing =/

[Darth-Piekus]

I am afraid guys that this is the worst Shadowpriest state I have ever seen.

They limited our Offhealing
Removed Healing from Divine Star, Flash Heal Heals like Shit, Removed Renew, Prayer of Healing as a Cast and Drops Shadowform, Vampiric Embrace no longer is a huge 100% heal for 10 seconds now limited to 20% heal, Desperate Prayer Nerfed.

They limited our Defences
Removed the Psyfiend, Psychic Scream breaks in like 1 second by any damage, Removed the Improved Psychic Horror which was the only thing to keep the opponent away from you without breaking, Void Tendrils can be hit by you and your opponent and they are fucking literally non existent as a cc, They removed our Inner Fire Armor.

They limited our Movement
This one though started from MOP, They lowered in 5% the Divine Insight from 20%, they then lowered to 10% the Surge of Darkness from 20%, we are the only fucking class that our Slow Effect is a channeling Mind Flay while all the rest can cast a slow effect on us and can move.

Please just tell me. What can I possibly do now in a PVP situation if someone train on me. I am playing warcraft from the start of the game. This is the First time I am saying that I am getting tired of the Priest Developers Incompetence to make a good shadowpriest class. I ask that those weaknesses be resolved.

[Kaesebrezen]

***This is very important for people to note when doing your own Simulationcraft experiments, as the bonus makes the worth of haste tank!***

Just as a general information: There was a simcraft bug with interrupt/chain on channelled spells.

Chain didn't work at all, and interrupt allowed Mind Flay to interrupt itself (interrupt after the second tick, each time triggering a 0.25 sec delay). So if you we're using the default APL where chain/interrupt was enabled, you'll see some differences.

[Annesh]

http://wod.wowhead.com/talent#py|

Thanks

New questions:

#1: Does PvP feel as bad as I'm afraid it does?

#2: If it does, do you think that might just be because of the broader melee vs caster imbalance, or do we have unique problems?

[Blackmorgrim]

I am afraid guys that this is the worst Shadowpriest state I have ever seen.

If you think that, it may have do do with the fact you've paid very close attention to everything they took away, while ignoring everything they've added.
Focus on the negatives, and of course its going to look bad.

The minute you look at everything that's been added, you'll see that we lost 1) in exchange for more of 2) and 3).

As a hint, if you're dying in PVP, you might want to think about other spells you have other than relying on renew and crying that its gone. Especially since one of them has easily been at least doubled (if not more) in power now.

[Deleted]

SI is actually the weakest talent you could take for CoP. Mindblast already has an incredibly small cooldown, so unless you're using Glyph of Mind harvest, the most DI can ever do is cut the cooldown of MB by 2 GCDs in CoP on single target, 3 GCDs in multitarget. Remember, that you only have 3 GCDs between MBs in CoP to begin with!

SI has a 5% chance to proc off of MS. There's at most 3 MS's between every MB. MS being hardcast or instant cast doesn't matter because you still can't cast MB in that GCD.

You cast MB, it consumes 1 GCD.
You now need to cast MS, it consumes another GCD. 5% chance for MB to be ready for next GCD.
Without a proc, MS consumes another GCD. 5% chance for MB to be ready next GCD.
Without a proc, MS would consume another GCD, but even if it does proc, MB would be ready to cast naturally anyway.

On average, SI is only saving you about .15 GCDs, so you're reducing the average cooldown by a mere 3.25%. The maximum benefit would be at 50% haste, where at 6 minute fight is 360 GCDs. Meaning you get ~3.5 more Mindblasts overall, letting you cast 1 extra DP.

PI will accomplish this same feat at 0% haste. ToF will make your MBs at least 35% more effective overall (effectively adding 30 MBs at 50% haste). However, these talents also benefit all your other spells while they are active as well.

With regards to stats, CoP strongest is Mastery, followed by haste, crit, and multistrike. Haste only falls below when the T17 4pc is involved, which can make a DP stack a buff for up to 36% haste. (3% a stack I believe it was) ***This is very important for people to note when doing your own Simulationcraft experiments, as the bonus makes the worth of haste tank!***

SI doesn't feel weak in testing though, ToF feels rather weak. Theorycrafting is theory, doesn't mean it's solid in practice though.

[Theed]

If you think that, it may have do do with the fact you've paid very close attention to everything they took away, while ignoring everything they've added.
Focus on the negatives, and of course its going to look bad.

The minute you look at everything that's been added, you'll see that we lost 1) in exchange for more of 2) and 3).

As a hint, if you're dying in PVP, you might want to think about other spells you have other than relying on renew and crying that its gone. Especially since one of them has easily been at least doubled (if not more) in power now.

You don't seem to pvp much. Sure, devouring plague heals a lot and PWS is good but have you faced two melees in 3s (or 2s) training you all game, limiting your orb generation while you have no way to get away from them AND take a lot of damage because there is no passive reduction like almost anyone else has?

Shadowpriest is an easy and very squishy target. You can't PWS or DP in a stun and both can be dispelled. The only thing we have is Dispersion.
And thats not just a theory. That happened to me in countless games on the beta realm. 2 Melees chasing me braindeadly until I die or my teammate kills them, because they know Shadowpriest is easy to kill if locked down.

[Blackmorgrim]

You don't seem to pvp much. Sure, devouring plague heals a lot and PWS is good but have you faced two melees in 3s (or 2s) training you all game, limiting your orb generation while you have no way to get away from them AND take a lot of damage because there is no passive reduction like almost anyone else has?

Shadowpriest is an easy and very squishy target. You can't PWS or DP in a stun and both can be dispelled. The only thing we have is Dispersion.

Anyone should be squishy with 2-3 people on them. If you're having limited orb generation, it may be because you're attracted to CoP for its large crits. AS will probably have much more reliable orb generation. Also, don't underestimate the power of versatility enchants, PW:S gains about 1.5% in effectiveness per 130 rating.

SI doesn't feel weak in testing though, ToF feels rather weak. Theorycrafting is theory, doesn't mean it's solid in practice though.

People also used to 'feel' the world was flat too. However, the 'theory' that the world was round was based on collected data, backed up by repeatable evidence, and eventually proven as fact in practice.

[Twintop]

SI doesn't feel weak in testing though, ToF feels rather weak. Theorycrafting is theory, doesn't mean it's solid in practice though.

So wait, you're telling me that when you don't reach 35% on a boss a talent that only procs when a target is at 35% or lower is going to feel weak? No way!

[Deleted]

So wait, you're telling me that when you don't reach 35% on a boss a talent that only procs when a target is at 35% or lower is going to feel weak? No way!

We actually reached sub 35% on many bosses, then again it we only killed a few bosses, so I guess it's hard to judge.

-

Tried VEnt today on iron maidens and it does a lot of damage when you multidot, the only annoyance is the orb cost.
Also tried AS, and that is just silly with high crit, 45 orbs in a spawn of 2 minutes, you really need to react fast to spread dps.

[Dawnrage]

AS is pretty fun when you have a fight like Iron Maidens. VEnt just has so much ramp up time that it's shitty to use, especially since they occasionally run off to man the cannons at certain percentages and wipe all their dots off, didn't feel like it was competitive with AS either. CoP is alright on multi-target I guess but I prefer playing with AS more.

Really hope AS gets tuned to be decent single target because it's the spec I'm leaning towards right now.

[Twintop]

We actually reached sub 35% on many bosses, then again it we only killed a few bosses, so I guess it's hard to judge.

As a rule of thumb, you need to have at least (ToF proc % - 5)% uptime for ToF to be better than PI or SI. On most Patchwerk style encounters you'll see ~29-30% up time on ToF as it exists now, and it pulls ahead even in those basic situations.

I think ToF's proc rate needs to be lowered to 25%-30% so other talents are better when you don't have adds to get high ToF uptime against. /shrug

Tried VEnt today on iron maidens and it does a lot of damage when you multidot, the only annoyance is the orb cost.
Also tried AS, and that is just silly with high crit, 45 orbs in a spawn of 2 minutes, you really need to react fast to spread dps.

VEnt would have been better on IM if there were adds to use GoMH against. Otherwise (especially if you have to go up on the boat) you end up wasting a lot of orbs putting VEnt back on the three bosses at the beginning *and* when you come back down off the boat.

AS is so stupidly overtuned right now that it beats VEnt in nearly every multi target encounter. :|

[Kaesebrezen]

AS is so stupidly overtuned right now that it beats VEnt in nearly every multi target encounter. :|

Asp. Spirits is just nearly as broken as CoP is...

... to get Asp. Spirits crit scaling in line (but crit still as the best stat), you'd have to cut down it's orb generation to ~30%. Now at 30% Crit/Haste you're looking at a gain of 2.25 Orbs per minute per target. That's ~450% of SP gain per target. At 5k spellpower that's a gain of 375 dps per target... when we're at 22k that's 1.7% gain. Acceptable crit scaling for Asp. Spirits equals a very weak talent...

CoP currently can never be tuned to use Mind Flay (look @page 18 for why), while Asp. Spirits power goes so hand in hand with broken crit scaling that once crit scaling is down, Asp. Spirits is even further down...

[Deleted]

As a rule of thumb, you need to have at least (ToF proc % - 5)% uptime for ToF to be better than PI or SI. On most Patchwerk style encounters you'll see ~29-30% up time on ToF as it exists now, and it pulls ahead even in those basic situations.

I think ToF's proc rate needs to be lowered to 25%-30% so other talents are better when you don't have adds to get high ToF uptime against. /shrug



VEnt would have been better on IM if there were adds to use GoMH against. Otherwise (especially if you have to go up on the boat) you end up wasting a lot of orbs putting VEnt back on the three bosses at the beginning *and* when you come back down off the boat.

AS is so stupidly overtuned right now that it beats VEnt in nearly every multi target encounter. :|

They did make DP refresh the full duration on VEnt. Which I just noticed in the client, so at least they tried to improve VEnt so far.

But yeah AS just is insane, it's really challenging to keep the dps rolling without wasting one orb.

- I'm crafting the new gems atm, to my suprise they aren't scaling and you can put them in siege gear lol. 120 stat per gem -.-

[Blackmorgrim]

actually the new green quality gems are 120 of a stat, and the blue quality are 160.

[Deleted]

actually the new green quality gems are 120 of a stat, and the blue quality are 160.

You need lvl 3 for that I guess? How to even get lvl 3? I want the craftable rings and neck :<

[Kulle]

SI is actually the weakest talent you could take for CoP. Mindblast already has an incredibly small cooldown, so unless you're using Glyph of Mind harvest, the most DI can ever do is cut the cooldown of MB by 2 GCDs in CoP on single target, 3 GCDs in multitarget. Remember, that you only have 3 GCDs between MBs in CoP to begin with!

SI has a 5% chance to proc off of MS. There's at most 3 MS's between every MB. MS being hardcast or instant cast doesn't matter because you still can't cast MB in that GCD.

You cast MB, it consumes 1 GCD.
You now need to cast MS, it consumes another GCD. 5% chance for MB to be ready for next GCD.
Without a proc, MS consumes another GCD. 5% chance for MB to be ready next GCD.
Without a proc, MS would consume another GCD, but even if it does proc, MB would be ready to cast naturally anyway.

On average, SI is only saving you about .15 GCDs, so you're reducing the average cooldown by a mere 3.25%. The maximum benefit would be at 50% haste, where at 6 minute fight is 360 GCDs. Meaning you get ~3.5 more Mindblasts overall, letting you cast 1 extra DP.

PI will accomplish this same feat at 0% haste. ToF will make your MBs at least 35% more effective overall (effectively adding 30 MBs at 50% haste). However, these talents also benefit all your other spells while they are active as well.

With regards to stats, CoP strongest is Mastery, followed by haste, crit, and multistrike. Haste only falls below when the T17 4pc is involved, which can make a DP stack a buff for up to 36% haste. (3% a stack I believe it was) ***This is very important for people to note when doing your own Simulationcraft experiments, as the bonus makes the worth of haste tank!***

Actually if you queue Mindblast cast right before mindspike cast ends and SI procs, you can cast 2 mindblast (one naturally, one with SI proc).