[6.0] Shadow Priest Discussion

[Deleted]

@Alexieel : Insanity is not tied to DP in WOD, it's tied to the orbs ^^ So when you cast VENT, you can cast Insanity right after

Yes, and this also means when you use Psychic Horror you get Insanity.

In other news, our blue dragon friend posted this on his Twitter:

@Celestalon what class has given you the most difficulties when it came to balance?
@Tinderhoof Hmm... Good question. Ones that have abilities that are all interconnected a lot, such as Shadow. Hard to change one thing...

#sleeplessnightsintheofficeduetoshadowtuning

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To be fair that person was Celestalon and he was probably drunk while doing it (it was his birthday).

Is there anyone here actually excited about this glyph at all? I mean, when we saw it first time we all replied "will get nerfed" now it adds 6 sec to the CD. Maybe with SI though?

Which brings me back to that Twitter post. The amount of added synergies we get, really cool. I cal that elegant design, or LEGO.

[Blain]

If I see it correctly, there is no way we would use the MH glyphe with CoP, other than having a new add on every cast. For non-CoP it should be on every second cast, is that true?

Besides that: Has someone already thought of the impact of the 2p bonus on the glyph? On Trash-fights like Galakras (P1) this combination might be worth a look.

[Annesh]

Besides that: Has someone already thought of the impact of the 2p bonus on the glyph? On Trash-fights like Galakras (P1) this combination might be worth a look.

I hadn't even thought of that, but I guarantee it won't go live, or if it does it won't last long.

[Ilir]

Oh I don't like the 2p. With COP and a haste proc it will make insanity so clunky.

[Alanar]

I posted it to celestalon, but no one thought of glyph of mindspike? This glyph is absolutely shit in beta... CoP is never going to take it since MB is instant anyway, Os isn't even using mindspike realy...and Vent yea.. Vent.

Solutions?

[Blackmorgrim]

Honestly guys, you're really oversimplifying the process. Unless you guys are looking at the game as a whole... as in all classes, all aspects of play, etc... you would be the guys not seeing the implications of the changes, not the devs.

But when it comes down to it, I think what they found was that GoMH was just too strong in add fights, so they added in the greater cd for MB to make it so that you really needed a situation to use it, and not risk it becoming a must have glyph. They played around with the idea of GoMH becoming a base ability, but doing so would require them to make orbs decay out of combat. Its great for PVE, but horrible for PVP considering a majority of our healing comes from DP.

GoMH has incredible power in builds like AS and VEnt where if there's 4+ targets at all times (even if they are trash) the potential orb generation allows for incredibly high DPS, and the increased MB cooldown at least keeps that in check by requiring you to pretty much take SI with it.

[brookllyn]

I don't have an issue with the glyph as it stands, I think it is a good niche ability for fights with lots of adds that you can or cannot take, depending on your own individual playstyle. The issue that I have is that the original purpose of GoMH was to give us 3 orbs on every pull. It has since been reworked to do something entirely different that what it was intended to do. This still leaves the major gap of not having 3 orbs on every pull. Every other class is either designed to have their burst resources out of the gate or have their burst resources decay out of combat. I would even prefer having orbs decay out of combat so we could never start with 3 orbs as I feel like I need to find a target dummy on each progression pull in order to maximize my dps.

But when it comes down to it, I think what they found was that GoMH was just too strong in add fights, so they added in the greater cd for MB to make it so that you really needed a situation to use it, and not risk it becoming a must have glyph. They played around with the idea of GoMH becoming a base ability, but doing so would require them to make orbs decay out of combat.

They balanced the glyph just as anyone would balance it. It makes perfect sense and no one saw it going live as it was, but the fact is that even attempting to balance this glyph makes it impossible to fix the underlying issue that it was supposed to fix. It should have been changed to something else the second they saw it was overpowered.

All we really need is to have an astral communication, or an out of combat degen/regen to 2(like destro) and I think everyone would forget about GoMH. I don't know how it got changed to this weird playstyle changing glyph, and I really don't care, I just think they need to have somebody that is actually looking at the underlying issues, and why changes were made instead of blindly trying to balance what got put in there.

[Dierdre]

GoMH has incredible power in builds like AS and VEnt where if there's 4+ targets at all times (even if they are trash) the potential orb generation allows for incredibly high DPS, and the increased MB cooldown at least keeps that in check by requiring you to pretty much take SI with it.

I agree it has potential uses, but as brooklyn just pointed out it's irrelevant, since it's useless regarding the actual issue it was meant to address which was having no resources on pull.

Picture this:
Customer - "Hi I need some bug spray to take care of mosquitoes"
Clerk - "Here. Although you know what? That could be poisonous and bad for the environment. Have a bear trap instead."
Customer - "Wait wha? That won't help me with mosquitoes!"
Clerk - "It could deal some serious damage to bears though."

So... nice bear trap thanks, but we need resources on pull.

[Regen]

Is Shadow Priest going to shine in WoD?

Hopefully! I guess after 6.0/when it gets closer we'll have a better answer.

[Yvaelle]

They balanced the glyph just as anyone would balance it. It makes perfect sense and no one saw it going live as it was, but the fact is that even attempting to balance this glyph makes it impossible to fix the underlying issue that it was supposed to fix. It should have been changed to something else the second they saw it was overpowered.

All we really need is to have an astral communication, or an out of combat degen/regen to 2(like destro) and I think everyone would forget about GoMH. I don't know how it got changed to this weird playstyle changing glyph, and I really don't care, I just think they need to have somebody that is actually looking at the underlying issues, and why changes were made instead of blindly trying to balance what got put in there.

^ This.

I don't fault them at all for the way they balanced the glyph - it was a simple and correct solution to making the it a highly situational benefit that alters gameplay in an interesting way: that's what glyphs are for.

Like Brookllyn said though, if the point of GoMH was originally to help us with orb generation on the pull - like we were all requesting, and like we all assumed when it was added - then the change, while interesting - no longer aligns with the initial purpose.

[Deleted]

Minor buffs, don't think the buffs are enough if you see that some classes that are far ahead, still haven't been nerfed.

The T17 2set is weird, doesn't seem like insanity is going to be fluid because of it.

[Valkaneer]

Minor buffs, don't think the buffs are enough if you see that some classes that are far ahead, still haven't been nerfed.

The T17 2set is weird, doesn't seem like insanity is going to be fluid because of it.

Well Mage Fire spec got nerfed, but it is not the strongest mage spec (Frost is, and it looks like frost got buffed), so I'm not quite sure why they did that. But Spriest and Fire mages I think will be very close now, possibly Spriest may be ahead on Single target

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I think Elemental shamy took a nerf, and warlocks too.

[Ilir]

Minor buffs, don't think the buffs are enough if you see that some classes that are far ahead, still haven't been nerfed.

The T17 2set is weird, doesn't seem like insanity is going to be fluid because of it.

Nah, it's better. Before it was MB at 4 orbs => DP(or vent) => MB => DP => MB => insanity losing a gcd worth of second on insanity, it was clunky imo and counterintuitive.

I prefer the new one imo.

[Blackmorgrim]

I think in general what they did was give us dps on the back end instead of on the pull. Our execute phase is still incredibly strong, any fight with lust sub 25% is going to be incredible.

Yep, and the 2pc was far too strong as it was, and pretty much eliminated Insanity as a choice. It's pretty much exactly the same effect for CoP, but its a huge nerf for AS especially, and a minor nerf to its effect on VEnt.

[Ilir]

I think in general what they did was give us dps on the back end instead of on the pull. Our execute phase is still incredibly strong, any fight with lust sub 25% is going to be incredible.

Yep, and the 2pc was far too strong as it was, and pretty much eliminated Insanity as a choice. It's pretty much exactly the same effect for CoP, but its a huge nerf for AS especially, and a minor nerf to its effect on VEnt.

Yeah. I'd like it if they could do a set bonus that does something different depending on your level 100 talent choice.

[Deleted]

Mind flay does a lot more damage now, but still feels pathetic. Don't even get me started on mind sear.

[Zinge]

Don't even get me started on mind sear.

AoE spells haven't been tuned yet. We all know it sucks.

[Dierdre]

I think in general what they did was give us dps on the back end instead of on the pull. Our execute phase is still incredibly strong, any fight with lust sub 25% is going to be incredible.

Strong execute phase has nothing to do with having resources on pull. Every spec with a strong execute (e.g. destro, fury) has the ability to burst on pull, and anything "incredibly strong" will likely be tuned (i.e. incoming SWD nerf if it's indeed "incredibly strong"). Also, any fight with sub 25% lust will make a spec tuned around a strong execute just worse and worse as gear improves.

[Annesh]

Strong execute phase has nothing to do with having resources on pull.

Let's rephrase that: "Strong execute phase is not mutually exclusive with on-pull burst." Course, if both those peaks are high, then the valley below has to be that much lower (in a balanced, ideal world, and who knows if that'll ever happen).

And the two inherent weaknesses of strong execute phases have been brought up many times before but let's do it again:

1) The spec looks weaker on progression, which is inarguably the most important period of raiding. Even in the period of progression when your phase does come and pulls are eking closer to the kill, you're only "catching up" to the other specs who are strong throughout the fight.

2) As you said, the advantage shrinks as gear improves, bosses become farm content, and execute phases are shorter, so once again you look worse than you could otherwise.

As a result, I'd really prefer not to have a significant execute advantage, so my ultimate point here is that if BM is correct about Blizz taking the damage from orbs on pull and putting it in our execute phase, then I just strongly disagree with that direction.

AoE spells haven't been tuned yet. We all know it sucks.

The real question is: Does Blizz?

[Theed]

The 2pc sp pvp bonus is so pointless and we still are getting wrecked in pvp. No compensation for inner fire.