Recently moved our roster to 25 man HC , need help dissecting tonight's logs

[Deleted]

Hello guys,

Our guild recently moved from a 10 man roster to a 25 man one. With this came a lot of new players, and me previously being the one in charge of analyzing logs for new recruits, it seems the task has outgrown me a bit this time around. I came here mostly because I know there are plenty of experienced players for each class who can take a look at the performance of their own class in a few seconds and see if there is any major mistake .

Our gear is ranging from 560 to 580+ with all the new people, so SOME numbers might be low because of that. Other numbers are low because of lack skill or due to deaths etc.
We are semi-hardcore, killed spoils this week in 25 man currently working on thok. We only had 23 people last night , we decided to give it a go anyway so the new guys can learn the basic tactics for kiting etc. We actually managed to get him to 10%, so it's safe to assume we are killing it today.

Anyway to the point :

Our thok night: worldoflogs com/reports/rt-wm6h10tuu485gfdt/dashboard/?enc=bosses&boss=71529
Farm night: warcraftlogs com/reports/jHXKyn2LDkAVpx3q#fight=13&type=damage-done

Link to roster eu.battle. net/wow/en/guild/ragnaros/Deep_Tranquility/roster

[PosPosPos]

Hello guys,

Our guild recently moved from a 10 man roster to a 25 man one. With this came a lot of new players, and me previously being the one in charge of analyzing logs for new recruits, it seems the task has outgrown me a bit this time around. I came here mostly because I know there are plenty of experienced players for each class who can take a look at the performance of their own class in a few seconds and see if there is any major mistake .

Our gear is ranging from 560 to 580+ with all the new people, so SOME numbers might be low because of that. Other numbers are low because of lack skill or due to deaths etc.
We are semi-hardcore, killed spoils this week in 25 man currently working on thok. We only had 23 people last night , we decided to give it a go anyway so the new guys can learn the basic tactics for kiting etc. We actually managed to get him to 10%, so it's safe to assume we are killing it today.

Anyway to the point :

Our thok night: worldoflogs com/reports/rt-wm6h10tuu485gfdt/dashboard/?enc=bosses&boss=71529
Farm night: warcraftlogs com/reports/jHXKyn2LDkAVpx3q#fight=13&type=damage-done

Link to roster eu.battle. net/wow/en/guild/ragnaros/Deep_Tranquility/roster

Picking at the healers:

Your shamans are underperforming, to say the least.

140k and 190k is unacceptable for resto shamans on thok. Poor usage of empowered Earth Elemental totem(one of them didn't even slot Primal Elementalist - Magmatronic).

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...A9usz/advanced

Conductivity. By far the worst talent in the tier and anyone so much as considering running this talent should be laughed out of any serious raid setting. Fix this.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ronic/advanced

Conductivity and Unleashed Fury. Nobody uses Unleashed Fury.

I hope they are offspec healers, because as main healers this would be downright embarrassing.

[Kraineth]

I'm going to only speak about your Thok pulls


Your feral should probably use the glyph to increase the range of stampeding roar, it helps the melee keep up during the kite phase. He should also probably think about trying the blink talent, it will help him stick to the boss even better during the kite phase.

His bleed uptimes are also fairly lacking, going below 70% uptime on Rake/Rip on most pulls, whereas mine rarely fall below 90%. Feral is easily one of the best melee for this fight because you can still maintain full bleeds on the boss during the kite phase, it takes a bit of experience with how fast the boss runs and where the safe spots are while running, but it can certainly be done.

Other than that it looks pretty solid, though you may think about having him take the "Heart of the Wild" talent and tranqing at a specific point in the fight in which you are having trouble, it's a small dps loss over his current talent choice, but tranqing with that talent+bubble from symbiosis is the strongest healing output CD in the game, stronger than a tranq from a resto druid.

[Deleted]

Thank you guys, it's been hard trying to find decent players in the drought that is the current wow content. Appreciate the help.

[Haywire5714]

Your priest is doing well, a bit more power word: shield in the 1st phase works well.

[Clrg]

You have a dps problem in thok, how is there people below the shadow priest, tell the warlock to go affli or setup a big ass cast bar and energy bar for the boss. The hunters dps seem a bit low too.

[cszsolt3]

You have a dps problem in thok, how is there people below the shadow priest, tell the warlock to go affli or setup a big ass cast bar and energy bar for the boss. The hunters dps seem a bit low too.

Overall dps of several classes seems a bit low, I am not very good at reading logs so someone better at it would probably get a better idea

[-Raer-]

You don't have any Rogues...problem #1.

But seriously, not sure how 25 man without Rogue.

[Deleted]

You don't have any Rogues...problem #1.

But seriously, not sure how 25 man without Rogue.

We do have rogues but they weren't present on those tries. We killed the boss tonight btw, here is the updated logs, now with an actual kill : ) http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/aMKk9tFAhmgHPbTY

[Dangg]

You Moonkin looks fine, ideally he could try to dot all 7 bats. I think he missed one and hit one twice instead.

But that's the least of your problems, 25 man typical there is a huge gap between your players.
The damage of your geared hunters looks very low for Thok, the Arms warrior and WW look useless too.

[Deleted]

You Moonkin looks fine, ideally he could try to dot all 7 bats. I think he missed one and hit one twice instead.

But that's the least of your problems, 25 man typical there is a huge gap between your players.
The damage of your geared hunters looks very low for Thok, the Arms warrior and WW look useless too.

Can you point out anything in what the hunters would be doing wrong ? I've been searching for glaring mistakes for a while, but it seems pretty difficult to read anything from the hunter class in the logs

[Dangg]

Can you point out anything in what the hunters would be doing wrong ? I've been searching for glaring mistakes for a while, but it seems pretty difficult to read anything from the hunter class in the logs

Your BM hunter casted Kill Command 31 times in a 9:38 kill, ability has 6 s CD.
Do the math.

I don't play a Hunter myself, maybe I mixed something up this just seems too awful to be true.

[clevin]

A quick overall note on how I used to read logs for DPS...

1) Figure out where people should be given their gear level. If someone was within 10-15% of that on most fights, skip to the next person.

2) Look over fights where we were struggling first to see if people were specifically underperforming there vs elsewhere.

3) For DPS, figure out if their main abilities are on CD. If so, calculate how many times they should be able to use that ability. For example, an SV Hunter should be hitting Explosive Shot every 6 seconds. On a 5 minute fight, that's 50 ES. Now, getting into position etc might take that to 45-48. Abilities that cause them to have to handle something, be stunned etc might take that a bit lower, but if the number of ES used is, say, 35 that's an issue.

4) Figure out if they have a DoT. If so, calculate/look for uptime. Again using the SV hunter as an example, Serpent Sting should always be up unless there's some reason it falls off and the hunter is stunned etc.

Generally, if DPS does those things they do most of the other basics right. Conversely, it's rare that they do everything else right, but just fall down on their main nuke or dots.

Also, I give gear a once over, but in my experience gear optimization is frosting on the cake. Someone who is 30% under where they should be is doing something wrong mechanically.

- - - Updated - - -

So a quick comment. Dropulus seems low on SS uptime and a bit low on ES. But Thok is a fight where you have to account for what happened to someone. Was Dropulus targeted by Thok and thus not DPSing but running from him? Was he targeted, say, 3x? That will matter and you have to watch for it when you read logs.

[Cantor]

Your Feral's bleed uptimes are OK, working out at around 80% of his actual alive-time. He's using Shred as a CP builder, and a DoC rotation, so should really swap to Mangle for faster CP generation. His Thrash uptime is abysmal at 4%, he only used it twice but should be trying to maintain it as close to 100% as possible while keeping Rip/Rake/Roar up. He used Ferocious Bite 12 times, an equal number to Rip, but died well before the execute phase at 25%, so shouldn't really be pushing FB at all – he needs to be sitting on those CPs as much as possible so he can drop big Rips during trinket procs; it's unintuitive but does the most damage. Considering his average FB hit was 250k versus his average Rip tick of about 200k...well, I'm sure you can see what the most efficient damage source is. Can't review it anymore as I'm at work, but those are a few easy points to look for.

[PosPosPos]

Your priest is doing well, a bit more power word: shield in the 1st phase works well.

It's 25 man, you are better off using PW:S as a filler rather than an actual rotational ability. PoH/Atonement is way better anyway.

[Deleted]

Dropolus' black arrow and serpent sting uptime is terrible, he should be pushing at least 80% on Thok & more if he's able to chase the boss during fixates. Black arrow being <30% is a huge DPS loss because he is getting no LnL procs (SV's main source of damage) for 70+% of the fight... He should be hitting at least 100k more DPS than he did. Your other hunter Xerious did better but he seems to be delaying his Black Arrow casts by 4-6 seconds every single time, which adds up to a lot of missed explosive shots through LnL procs. Just for reference, on a fight that was a full 2 minutes shorter than yours I had only 2 less LnL procs than Xerious when he should have had probably 6-8 more, and this is with my BA uptime being only 15% more throughout the fight. Those lost procs can result in a huge amount of lost DPS depending on the RNG of your tier bonus. As for Dropolus, I had 18 more LnL procs and therefore almost double his Explosive Shots with a 2 minute shorter fight...

3) For DPS, figure out if their main abilities are on CD. If so, calculate how many times they should be able to use that ability. For example, an SV Hunter should be hitting Explosive Shot every 6 seconds. On a 5 minute fight, that's 50 ES. Now, getting into position etc might take that to 45-48. Abilities that cause them to have to handle something, be stunned etc might take that a bit lower, but if the number of ES used is, say, 35 that's an issue.

Just to note that you shouldn't use that method with ES because your main proc and tier piece bonus basically means you use ES a bit less than double what you would from just the CD resetting. The hunter would be doing something extremely wrong if they get just 50 ES on a 5 minute fight -- which is why it's so awful that Dropolus is not only not using ES on CD but is not even making up for it with free ES from procs.

[Haywire5714]

It's 25 man, you are better off using PW:S as a filler rather than an actual rotational ability. PoH/Atonement is way better anyway.

PoH and Atonement works fine until the aoe speed ramps up. At that point you should stick to penance, holy fire, PoM and Divine Star off cooldown then spam Power Word: Shield. Using 2 PoH's per Aura Mastery is a good idea.

[PosPosPos]

PoH and Atonement works fine until the aoe speed ramps up. Then you should stick to penance, holy fire and PoM off cooldown and spam Power Word: Shield.

At max interrupt speed, you can still easily land PoH and Smite casts if you know how. That is also precisely when you need the most throughput.

Smite is 1.5 second base cast, and PoH with a ~2 second cast after BT proc makes those two spells extremely easy to fit in between screeches.

PoM, Penance and Holy Fire should always be used on CD obviously, which leaves you very little time to actually cast PW:S except to BT your PoH or trigger Rapture once you factor in smites and PoH casts.

[Haywire5714]

PoH with a ~2 second cast after BT proc makes those two spells extremely easy to fit in between screeches.

It's just risky, if you're delayed by a gcd just a little bit after the screech you'll get interrupted. And if you're trying really hard to cast a PoH at exactly the right time you might have a lot of down time.

Just seems a bit safer to go with PW:S spam imo.

[PosPosPos]

It's just risky, if you're delayed by a gcd just a little bit after the screech you'll get interrupted. And if you're trying really hard to cast a PoH at exactly the right time you might have a lot of down time.

Just seems a bit safer to go with PW:S spam imo.

This argument holds just about as much water as EF holy paladins shouldn't use HR on Thok if IoL doesn't proc. Which is to say none at all.

The disc priest in said logs is proficient enough to avoid interruption while using cast time heals - I should think your concerns are non-issues.