What do you think would be a better placement for Mannoroth's Fury?

[zura]

as you can see, the spell isnt very used

imo i think they should make it a passive spell that increases aoe damage and radus by 10%-15%, this will make it more appealing and "meaningful" and will also reduce the button bloat

[Nighthaven-]

I suggested

3. Mannoroth's Fury:
Increases the radius Area of effect of : (A) Seed of Corruption, (DM) Hand of Gul'dan, Hellfire & Immolation Aura, (DE) Rain of Fire & Fire and Brimstone abilities to 500%.
Increases the damage of: (A) Seed of Corruption by 50% (?), (DM) Hellfire & Immolation Aura 50% (?), Rain of Fire 50% (?).

Alternatively: (DE) 200% RoF damage + Further reduction (- 50%) of Ember-bits generated.

(The MF 'nerf' was to reduce F&B spam by Rain of Fire for Destruction despite what Blizzard claimed.)

>>>>

However, you have to consider Passive AoE radius for Destruction is not 'allowed' by Blizzard, so that will have to be separated (or work some other way).

[Dnusha]

I have some suggestions.

1. More spells(fnb, rof, hog, felstorm, soc(perhaps soc should have dmg bonus), cataclysm(?)) - less(or none) damage bonus.

2. Merge Mannoroths Fury(fnb, hog etc) with Infernal(lvl 100 talent) as passive or active ability. It will be Appropriate with other lvl 100 aoe talents (sb haunt, aoe chaosbolt, cataclysm). Original MF was scrapped because of RBG fnb spam and excessive rof ember generation, infernal can be easily killed and rof ember regeneration has been nerfed so it's no longer a problem.

Imo the second option is better. Level 100 talents will be about aoe damage, lvl 90 talents will take 2 free slots for new talents.(current alpha kjc is a joke and it will be scrapped imo)

About doomguard: I have no idea what role or abilities he should have. He's fine as a dps cooldown imo. (talented into Pitlord for more burst dmg?)
About level 90 talents: Let it be a "dmg boost tier": 2nd DS, some proc talents, something else that is not movement related.

[Durantye]

Blizzard is obviously having issues with balancing these spells and making them level 90 worthy, they shouldn't keep fixing them and changing potential play styles of spec each patch, they should trash them and remake them like they should have when they first thought of them.

[Jessicka]

What would be a better placement for MF? A blank slot so those few poor folks aren't caught by its trap.

[Sylar Hao]

^ This. I haven't used it since it was modified to a poor cooldown.

[Chrispotter]

I think it should be a toggable ability that makes your aoe spells do 10% less damage but increase the radius by 500%.

[Brusalk]

as you can see, the spell isnt very used

imo i think they should make it a passive spell that increases aoe damage and radus by 10%-15%, this will make it more appealing and "meaningful" and will also reduce the button bloat

I'd like to see the tier center around changing DS.

AD: DS now has 2 charges. 2 min recharge.
KjC: DS now has 6 charges. Recharge time of 25 seconds. Lasts 4 seconds. The warlock can cast all spells while moving while DS is up.
MF: DS has 1 min CD, with 50% of baseline effectiveness. While DS is active, increases the area of effect of the warlocks AoE spells by 500%, and increases the damage done of AoE spells by 25%.

AD: Single target no movement.
KjC: Kinda like ice flows for mages, but more flexibility. Less single target benefit than AD due to increased recharge time.
MF: Buffs AoE with both DS and 25% damage and AoE radius.

All three talents retain their core functionality, but each now have a common theme of changing DS's functionality.

[merli]

I would like to get the passive Mannoroth's Fury back. This one was at least useful for many bosses.

[Sylar Hao]

I'd like to see the tier center around changing DS.

AD: DS now has 2 charges. 2 min recharge.
KjC: DS now has 6 charges. Recharge time of 25 seconds. Lasts 4 seconds. The warlock can cast all spells while moving while DS is up.
MF: DS has 1 min CD, with 50% of baseline effectiveness. While DS is active, increases the area of effect of the warlocks AoE spells by 500%, and increases the damage done of AoE spells by 25%.

AD: Single target no movement.
KjC: Kinda like ice flows for mages, but more flexibility. Less single target benefit than AD due to increased recharge time.
MF: Buffs AoE with both DS and 25% damage and AoE radius.

All three talents retain their core functionality, but each now have a common theme of changing DS's functionality.

I really like what you're proposing here. Specially the Ice Flow-like KJC. Few secs to cast something stronger on the move. I'd definitely pick this one most of the time, and MF also looks solid. It adds something very different for a DPS CD without adding new spells. Where can I vote for this?

[Soulzar]

If you look at Demo, I think your table nicely illustrates that if Mannoroths didn't completely suck for Destro and Affliction, people would use it.

[Jessicka]

If you look at Demo, I think your table nicely illustrates that if Mannoroths didn't completely suck for Destro and Affliction, people would use it.

I think it's more suggestive of the problems with Demos baseline AoE being range limited and dependent on cooldown stacking.

It's necessary because it mitigates issues, partially, it doesn't feel like a bonus and it doesn't add any fun to gameplay.

[Soulzar]

I hear what you're saying in regards to ranged AoE options as demo basically not existing, but if having to choose between having Hellfire vanish in exchange for Demo no longer being in melee for AoE, I'd have to pass. I love my Immolation Aura! And popping Mannoroths most certainly is fun for me!

I think with Void Ray and Carrion gone paired with Demo's need to have a filler AoE spell, there is def room to improve our ranged AoE options and spread the Dmg out a bit better in the process.

I also feel they need to address the Fury cost of AoE. Compare to Destro where an AoE phase can leave you ember positive, or current Affliction where SB:Seed makes it rain Soul Shards.... Demo AoE leaves you with an empty gas tank once your Shadowflame drops off. This goes in hand with the concerns of it being balanced too much around Cooldown stacking and massive resource cost. Destro, you need 1 ember to start the AoE cycle, how far would you get with 250 fury.....?

[Orloth]

I'd like to see the tier center around changing DS.

AD: DS now has 2 charges. 2 min recharge.
KjC: DS now has 6 charges. Recharge time of 25 seconds. Lasts 4 seconds. The warlock can cast all spells while moving while DS is up.
MF: DS has 1 min CD, with 50% of baseline effectiveness. While DS is active, increases the area of effect of the warlocks AoE spells by 500%, and increases the damage done of AoE spells by 25%.

AD: Single target no movement.
KjC: Kinda like ice flows for mages, but more flexibility. Less single target benefit than AD due to increased recharge time.
MF: Buffs AoE with both DS and 25% damage and AoE radius.

All three talents retain their core functionality, but each now have a common theme of changing DS's functionality.

Ooooooh, me likey. The only thing I would change is to make KJC double DS affect but root the Warlock (alluding to the Sunwell fight). Make it so that all three of them improve the functionality of DS but in different enough ways that they could be chosen for specific encounters.

[Deleted]

I think the entire tier should be rebuilt from the ground up.

I'm still fond of the Infernal / Doomguard / Pitlord idea with each guardian given some speciality of some sort (AOE, single, cleave) or something. Still kinda falls into the trap of "You'll pick what the fight dictates", but guardians have been in a poor place for ages, especially infernal's which seem like a trick button, and pit lords have been wanted to varying degrees for years.

Probably a worse idea than doing something like what Brusalk posted since guardians are always a bit problematic when they decide to wigg out and attack the wrong thing, but I'd have liked something a little more fanciful than DS modifications and I'd worry that they'd just fall into the same trap as we have now, arguably even moreso if you're having to save DS charges for AOE. It already feels bad enough having to take MF and not getting much use out of it since the AOE sections in a fight never line up properly with it's CD, it'd feel real nasty if you're having to shaft your major dps CD as opposed to just losing the potential of AV / KJC.

[Jessicka]

I hear what you're saying in regards to ranged AoE options as demo basically not existing, but if having to choose between having Hellfire vanish in exchange for Demo no longer being in melee for AoE, I'd have to pass. I love my Immolation Aura! And popping Mannoroths most certainly is fun for me!

I think with Void Ray and Carrion gone paired with Demo's need to have a filler AoE spell, there is def room to improve our ranged AoE options and spread the Dmg out a bit better in the process.

I also feel they need to address the Fury cost of AoE. Compare to Destro where an AoE phase can leave you ember positive, or current Affliction where SB:Seed makes it rain Soul Shards.... Demo AoE leaves you with an empty gas tank once your Shadowflame drops off. This goes in hand with the concerns of it being balanced too much around Cooldown stacking and massive resource cost. Destro, you need 1 ember to start the AoE cycle, how far would you get with 250 fury.....?

It's great when you can do it, and then only for 10 seconds. After that, your throughput effectively ends, you can't reach anything to hit it and it just becomes a massive anticlimax. You spend all the time setting it up and hit about 8 different abilities to do no better than anyone else by the end of it; oftentimes everything's dead before you even finish your rotation.

@Brusalk's ideas. Think I'm wish Nagassh on this, DS is too important to be used on minor AE phases or heavy movement where you'll miss out on that big burn phase. The whole row has never been a good fit, I just don't feel such talents can be balanced against each other.

[Brusalk]

It's great when you can do it, and then only for 10 seconds. After that, your throughput effectively ends, you can't reach anything to hit it and it just becomes a massive anticlimax. You spend all the time setting it up and hit about 8 different abilities to do no better than anyone else by the end of it; oftentimes everything's dead before you even finish your rotation.

@Brusalk's ideas. Think I'm wish Nagassh on this, DS is too important to be used on minor AE phases or heavy movement where you'll miss out on that big burn phase. The whole row has never been a good fit, I just don't feel such talents can be balanced against each other.

Well the whole point is to choose what area you'd specialize in for that fight. With AD you'd specialize in the big burn phase with limited movement and generic AoE. With KjC you'd be sacrificing some (but not all) of your ability to have one large coordinated burn to have the ability to have stronger movement. MF would sacrifice the extra DS and charge system to have smaller burns more frequently, with the additional ability to have larger AoE potential every minute.

With AD you have a full benefit DS burn, which is flexible on when you use it. In addition you have 1 extra use per fight.
With KjC you have the ability to use it for mini movement burns infrequently, or save it up for full benefit DS burns every 2.5 minutes.
With MF you have the ability to use DS to further boost your AoE every 1 minute, or use it for smaller, more frequent burns every 1 minute. (Averaging to 1 full DS per 2 minutes).

All three choices have advantages and disadvantages, but none of them prevent you from the normal burn potential of DS.

Obviously if it was only a "minor AE phase" you wouldn't probably select MF and opt for one of the other talents instead. If it's a heavy movement fight, will you even have that burn you need? Is that normal burn strategy even better than having a higher baseline during movement?


I wouldn't think of it as losing DS to movement or AoE, but more adding in flexibility to the spell which I think would be interesting and provide for some fun choices.

[Jessicka]

I see the idea, but there's almost no situation where I could see picking either the movement or AoE models would be preferable; they are far, far too niche and it just creates the same problem that already exists in the row.

[Nighthaven-]

... and talents are not talents if they're mandatory in X circumstance - other than being slightly optimal.
The better design is to have talents that alter the style you play/ what your capabilties are based around on, not even 'flavor'.

[Brusalk]

I see the idea, but there's almost no situation where I could see picking either the movement or AoE models would be preferable; they are far, far too niche and it just creates the same problem that already exists in the row.

That's interesting because I personally find myself struggling to see myself picking AD over KjC or MF. (At least with a Destro PoV).