Question: Theorycraft behind AMoC vs BS as BM?

[Astacio]

Hi guys, just here to get moar info off u guys abt amoc vs bs as bm.

Over countless surfs over logs I've noticed that every1 goes BS for tier 5. I prefer it over amoc myself, and am quited satisfied with the end result.

But I've come across a buddy who plays on asian servers and he claims that AMoC triumphs over BS period, and the way he sed it seemd at the time quite convincing.

Here we go: worldoflogs.com/reports/6x9p0dgqa57unbi9/sum/damageDone/?s=6027&e=6243#래준팍

For those who are not bilingual,
amoc = 7921286 dmg
claw dmg increased by bs = 11604374*0.5 = 5802187
therefore 7921286-5802187 = 2119099 dmg difference between amoc and bs.

And to even out the focus usage and gcd difference, he claimed that

bs should get two more arcane shots fired under BW effect + one arcane shot outside BW (For using amoc in bw, and 60 extra focus needed)
and since dats an extra gcd firing arcane,
amoc should get +1 cobra shot fired to roughly even it out.

From the log,
avg AS dmg = 166694
avg CS dmg = 96078
and with BW under consideration,
BS extra dmg = 166694*2*1.2+166694 = 566760
amoc extra dmg = 96078

combine all the numbers together and we get

amoc = 7921286+96078 = 8017364
bs = 5802187+566760 = 6368947
Difference between the two = 1648417

amoc wins by approx 1.65 mil dmg over bs <------ This is his theory so far, but I can't find a way to refute this. Seems roughly right to me.


Long story short,

how the hell do I explain to this guy that bs is better than amoc even in single target dps like malkorok? I mean no1 uses amoc on us servers nemore and I cant find ne logs to compare between the two. Can anyone explain to me how bs wins over amoc theoretically?? any sort of logs will be greatly appreciated.

[Azortharion]

AMOC does beat Blink Strikes on a single target fight with a perfect fight length for AMOC.

By 0.3% DPS.

http://i.imgur.com/t6BWwga.png

I cannot help but wonder how AMOC did 8 million damage over 2 usages, though, because it does like half that for me. >_>

[Astacio]

Thx bud, so u reckon in the log above with 3 min and 30 sec kill mark he would have done better with BS?

and if you dont mind me poking around a bit, what are your thoughts on peeps on asian servers going mastery heavy build after 15000ish haste?

[Nnug]

Another thing to note is that you lose Beast Cleave damage, so on a fight like Malk BS will probably trump it too if you are cleaving

http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...done&source=18

I got 5.6 from two a few weeks ago

[Tehterokkar]

Asia has like 10 ilvls more than US/EU still.

[Azortharion]

and if you dont mind me poking around a bit, what are your thoughts on peeps on asian servers going mastery heavy build after 15000ish haste?

That idea's based on faulty theorycrafting of my own where I'd argue for a haste "cap" at 14743 haste (which I used to just call 15k) because BM got a Stampede breakpoint right there and the next one was miles away, and with gear levels at the time it was pretty hard to reach the next one.

Or well, it's valid, or something, but not really worth the drop in Beast Cleave damage.

[Astacio]

Or well, it's valid, or something, but not really worth the drop in Beast Cleave damage.

Sorry to bombard u wif moar questions, how far ahead is haste in comparison to mastery beast cleave wise?

[Azortharion]

Quite a bit. 25% if I'd -have- to give a number on it, and enough for a small drop in Haste to Mastery becoming a real DPS loss %-wise, bigger than the increase of it single-target.

[Astacio]

Quite a bit. 25% if I'd -have- to give a number on it, and enough for a small drop in Haste to Mastery becoming a real DPS loss %-wise, bigger than the increase of it single-target.

u just made my day, chur chur

[Deleted]

Quite a bit. 25% if I'd -have- to give a number on it, and enough for a small drop in Haste to Mastery becoming a real DPS loss %-wise, bigger than the increase of it single-target.

hey, I am thankful for most of your posts, but sometimes you start stating random numbers as fact, that's really not cool

what does that even mean? 25% what? difference? difference of what exactly?

also which settings are you using to simulate AoEfights?

how do stats change for bursty AoE? because that is relevant for most fights in SoO

[Azortharion]

Where did I claim it was fact? OP was yearning for an answer - it's a pain in the ass to sim because statweights make no sense for BM atm.

25% difference in value per point.

Bursty AoE would probably favor haste because the frequency of the Beast Cleaves will mean much more than the damage of each individual hit.

[Nnug]

But then again, depends on the duration of burst, super short burst will favour Mastery due to Bite damage.

I'll look into this/run some sims tomorrow, football now :P

[Azortharion]

There is no super short burst in SoO, though.

[Effinhunter]

There is no super short burst in SoO, though.

Reflections on H Sha, maybe? I would say slimes on H Shaman, but I doubt many guilds are clumping them up perfectly. They're dangerous during progression for most guilds.

Edit: P.S. Are you guessing 25% over total point range, or 25% over the delta of mastery and haste. Because mastery is known to scale beast cleave very well. I'd be extremely surprised by 25% increase in total damage potential by preferring haste over mastery. Have you played with sims on this, or is this mostly intuition?

[Nnug]

Reflections, garrosh, shams slimes come to mind

[Azortharion]

Well, for 1 regular Bite to outDPS the autoattacks, that super short burst has to be.. Even super-shorter, because in 3 seconds your pet will do enough autoattacks to outdamage a single Bite/Claw/Smack, maybe a bit more if it's not Wild Hunt amplified, so "Super Short" for Bite to be > autoattacks or Mastery to be > Haste would have to be under 3 seconds (2 or less?) and there's none of that in SoO, and definitely not on progression, because if things die that fast, chances are you're overgearing it/it's a non issue.

That said, it takes more than 3 seconds for Reflections to die on Sha of Pride in my guild, same with Slimes and our raid DPS is fairly high.

Average autoattack dmg is like 70k, average Bite is like.. Not sure, 220k? So it'd take ~3-4 autoattacks to outdamage it, and the pet does roughly an auto per second.

[Nnug]

But having Mastery doesn't preclude your pet from auto attacking, nor does having haste prevent it from biting. I'm just saying that depending on the timing of the AoE, along with your pets focus level going into it, it's not inconceivable for mastery to be worth more. As I said, I'll look into it tomorrow

[Effinhunter]

Well, for 1 regular Bite to outDPS the autoattacks, that super short burst has to be.. Even super-shorter, because in 3 seconds your pet will do enough autoattacks to outdamage a single Bite/Claw/Smack, maybe a bit more if it's not Wild Hunt amplified, so "Super Short" for Bite to be > autoattacks or Mastery to be > Haste would have to be under 3 seconds (2 or less?) and there's none of that in SoO, and definitely not on progression, because if things die that fast, chances are you're overgearing it/it's a non issue.

That said, it takes more than 3 seconds for Reflections to die on Sha of Pride in my guild, same with Slimes and our raid DPS is fairly high.

Average autoattack dmg is like 70k, average Bite is like.. Not sure, 220k? So it'd take ~3-4 autoattacks to outdamage it, and the pet does roughly an auto per second.

What does bite damage have to do with beast cleave? How are 4k-10k reforges of haste to mastery going to result in 3-4 less autoattacks in a burst aoe period at all? What am I missing here? Sorry, I'm just a bit confused.

You would get an extra pet attack every 10-15 attacks of the mastery reforge, which is way out of the scope of a burst aoe. From 13.5k haste to 17.5k haste, you're looking at a drop from 0.91 frequency to 0.85. Meanwhile, adding 4000 mastery from say 9500 to 13500 (reforging from haste) adds 13% pet damage, straight up, which scales very well with beast cleave.

What am I missing here?

[Azortharion]

You're not choosing one over the other, but 3-4k haste (or whatever) can result in another auto attack in X period, while the same amount of Mastery will not result in a 70k+ damage to Bite.

I'm not sure how you'd simulate a real fight where you got this kinda burst-cleave in SimCraft, because in that program we can only really do 1) very short AoE/cleave fights or 2) normal length AoE/cleave fights for a result we can "believe" in, and Mastery is gonna win in both situations, just as it "wins" in pure single-target by like 10-20% value-wise which we all know is not near right.

We could do different gear sets (one with full hast,e another with a cap and another with Mastery > Haste) and see the results for both scenarios (edit the action list to not use Stampede so as to not overvalue Haste) and depending on what fight length you pick for the short one, Full Haste or Haste with some cap will most likely beat the full Mastery option by quite a bit, and then I guess you can reforge plot the short fight down to a very specific value at which Mastery is > Haste, but in the real world that result would be miles away.

EDIT:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/z4dzmd3x20...teMastAoE.html - Haste profile finds Haste is 20-25% better than Mastery in a "sustained" AoE fight. Mastery profile finds Haste is slightly less better than Mastery than in the Haste profile, despite the Haste profile beating it by .75% DPS-wise.

Remove Stampede, rerun across 30 seconds (so "burst" AoE, I do not believe we can reasonably model realistic boss add burst AoE):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1oibdgc5cy...tAoEBurst.html

Mastery beats Haste by miles. https://imgur.com/9lufLSv - also beats Haste DPS-wise, but still only be 1.5%

So I stand corrected in that Haste is not > Mastery in burst AoE situations - I guess, since there's no proper way that I know of to simulate reflections/Siegecrafter mines mid-fight except maybe a 10 second sim (again without Stampede), where Mastery>Haste wins, but still weighs Haste above Mastery while the Haste>Mastery weighs Mastery over Haste which indicates that there's a turning point in between the 13.6k haste and 18.2k haste where there's.. "Swing Shifting", I guess. The Haste build had 19 hits of Beast Cleave (116k each) and 3 Claws with 380k DPE each, the Mastery build had 17 hits of Beast Cleave (131k each) and 3 Claws of 414.4k DPE each.

The difference in Beast Cleave damage was 3.51%, Haste closes the gap to 1.5% difference in dmg done overall by giving a bit of a boost in other things like Auto Shot damage and pet auto frequency (that did not benefit Haste's Beast Cleave because the sim didn't have 100% uptime).

[Deleted]

don't know how accurate simcraft can be for AoE, so I am not sure how I would interpret those results:



#enemies is 6 to fit the actionprioritylist which only spams multishot at "active_enemies>5"

the "mastery" build runs:

Crit 8330
Haste 14755
Mastery 11472
Agility 31193

the "haste" build runs:

Crit 8255
Haste 16809
Mastery 9486
Agility 31193

(I used my own gear because I was too lazy to insert BiS, has 586 ilvl)


my comment tho: TotH has extremly low beastcleave uptime, so I just did not bother with that talent
and it looks like the only difference in haste and mastery comes off DB,
barrage damage is unexpectedly low, maybe a simcraftthing?