demon hunters did not end with illidain

[diamondjim]

seems some people sure got a grudge against demon hunters

[Venziir]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjRvzgBWwpM#t=1369

seems there are alot more

... Bit late to the party there matey. No, the "art" of Demon Hunting did not die with Illidan; everyone know this, we've dealt with countless Demon Hunter mobs and npc's from Vanilla to Cataclysm. They are still out there, we know this.

[Talen]

seems some people sure got a grudge against demon hunters

It's not a grudge.

It's realism.

Blizzard are not going to add Demon Hunters as they are now. The overlaps in the design space are too pronounced, too large to simply ignore and there is no gameplay justification to justify their addition. The class adds nothing to the game because everything it embodies is already in play, and that means there is no reason to annoy existing Warlocks and rogues by bringing the class into the game.

Nor can the class be redesigned around this issue. Doing so would mean you would end up with a class which isn't a Demon Hunter except in name. There's no point to that exercise, especially since it'd still carry all the baggage that comes with the name.

Can you keep the same design space and its overlap with existing classes and still craft a unique identity and theme that would enable it to be added? No. You can't.

The choice isn't between adding a Demon Hunter or a different class....the choice is between adding a 4th spec to an existing class or not adding the DH at all.

Personally - I'd rather have DHs in the game than not at all....and to date, noone has been able to come with any in game lore or gameplay reason why they cannot or should not be attached to Warlocks beyond "I don't like it"

To put it another way...Blizzards problem here is the way classes are designed and work in game. It isn't a setup that rewards having multiple classes where design concepts and themes are just slightly different. Blizzard are MORE likely to change that than add in a standalone DH class. other alternatives might be some sort of hybrid class design or Alternate Advancement system. But as things stand? DHs ain't gonna happen.

EJL

[Skayth]

Good...you agree then that he is Warlock.

A warlock who melees like a Demon hunter, mixes magic and swordplay like a Demon Hunter, can cast spells like a Demon Hunter, can absorb demonic essence like a Demon Hunter, can empower his weapons and body like a Dmeon Hunter, can work with demons like a Demon Hunter...

It isn't enought oi simply say he isn't a Demon Hunter. Where is the difference between the two? What is it that ensures a Demon HUnter cannot simply be just a different type of Warlock?

Of course he isn't. He isn't a member of the "Dark Embrace"....and that's all that a Demon Hunter is. A Warlock who is a member of the Dark Embrace and as a result has focussed his development on melee.

Nothing more.

Very different. And so what? Simply dropping moves or abilities or concepts from a player doesn't remove them from the design space. Those abilities existed befdore and can exist again. They show what Warlocks - as a class and as a whole and not just the current player model can do. Nor is this debate even about optimality or viability - the nature of the beats is such that for a Warlock to melee viably, it would simply require a 4th spec.

In other words, a Warlock is class which already shares many themes and concepts with Demon Hunters. There is already a large degree of overlap in lore. Warlock have been taking more and more from Demon Hunters for the past 10 years. Looking at hos DHs are shown in agme, we see Dhs who work with nd use Demons, who cast curses and other Warlcoks spells. And so on.

So - a simple exercise.

What would it take right now for Blizzard to turna Warlock into a Demon Hunter. Nothing....the Warlcok already embodies everything a Demon Hunter. Right down to the possibility of melee combat.

But what about the rest....

fine....

First? NElfs can become Warlocks.
Second? Warlocks can wield the Warglaives.
Third? Warlocks get a Cursed Vision Equivalent.
Fourth? Warlocks can dual wield
Fifth? Optionally, the Dark Embrace is introduced into the game as a faction, with existing Demon Hunters strolling around Darnassus and other NElf holdings as trainers. The Horde can get the Grand warlock concept.
Sixth? For the purposes of raid viability, gameplay and balance only - Warlocks get a 4th spec dedicated to melee combat.

Only that last step is required to bring in Demon Hunters as a viable player unit.

But -if you REALLY want to show that DH can never ever be Warlocks you need to do more than just say that. You need to show how they are different to give your statement some actual heft.

But right now? Warlcoks have everythign that makes a DH a DH and they lack only viability in anything other than a cosmetic setting. Viability requires a 4th spec....no a new class that copies much of what the wArlock already has.

EJL

I just realized, with someone like you, it takes more than facts to even prove something. I tried to keep it civil before. That didnt work, and you ignored everything about it. I then became more harsh in my tone, and oh look red text. To someone like you, or Teriz, it is impossible to even get the easiest amount of information into your heads. I cannot say why, or how, but I feel sorry for both of you. You both have my pity.

But, Since you so clearly think Grand Warlock is basically a Demon Hunter, lets see his Spells. Death Coil.... Shadow Bolt.. Shadow Cleave... Shadow Sear... Shadow Slam... Shadow Fissure... Dark Spin... Well, to me, its sound more like a combination of warlock abilities and Death knight abilities. Hmmmm.... well that makes sense since warlocks were the death knights of the second war. Since everything is shadow based, and nothing else, it has nothing to do with demonic abilities, since we know Shadow priests are not demonic, so what do we make of that? Oh right... HE MUST BE A DEMON HUNTER SINCE HE CAN MELEE AND HE IS A WARLOCK. No. Just no. Are you going to argue against this?

You are reading to much into this, since you believe his things have to do with a Demon Hunter, when in reality they have more in common with Death Knights. The Difference is, Warlocks of the Old Horde/the Fel Horde were also Death Knights of old. So nowhere in his lore does he absorb demonic essence. No where in his abilities does he empower his weapon like demon hunter. He wields a 2h sword, not like a demon hunter, but a dk. His sword play is like a dk and a warrior. hmmm... seems to me, You have the wrong canidate. Can he melee? Sure. But that does not justify him being considered anything like a demon hunter, since he has nothing like a demon hunter IN HIS KIT. So, with that, I hope we both can clearly justify him as a death knight candidate of the second war. But, since this is you, and you have my pity, I doubt it.

Actually, Since he was in Illidan's command, and you are so spent on him being basically a demon hunter... Why didnt Illidan train him? Oh right, thats Because hes a warlock... not a demon hunter. He has nothing to do with the dark embrace. The dark Embrace, if it turns out to be the Demon Hunter class, would simply be a faction of demon hunters like the Knights of the Ebon Hand. They would be heroes of all over as demon hunters, not just warlocks. You forget that Demon Hunters can use any magic, except Holy (as it has not yet been shown in any lore). So essentually any class can decide to become a Demon Hunter. Why? Its about Killing demons. Are you going to tell me all those blood elves that were training at the black temple were ALL warlocks? No. Of course not. They are addicted to fel magic, but they are not warlocks. pretty sure a few them are your rangers, your mages, your warriors, your spell breakers...

What was dropped from the warlock class was a bunch of useless stuff. Emberstone was never used. Spell stone was used for a bit, then nerfed and dropped. Alot the passives became passives and nerfed, and then a few became talents. But Anything dealing with Melee has since been dropped. THis includes, now, the glyph of demon hunting. Why did they drop that if they are trying to show the two classes are the same? Oh right... they dont want us to have that power. Just like Carrion Swarm.

what would it take for blizzard to make Warlocks demon hunters? Well alot a major retcons in lore, to start. They cannot even have Kanrethad being Canon then. Why? Because he is the one that created metamorphosis for the warlock class, not illidan. He did. They have to change them from being power hungry mages, that seek more power at any cost, to being self sacrificing warriors. THis in itself would require another large lore update that the other classes would not be pleased with. Oh, and Demon hunters do not use Demons. Illidan is unique, not the only demon hunter. Want two demon hunters to look at? Sindweller and Altruis. Altruis even tells you that Illidan became what he swore to fought. Sindweller sends you off to kill and slaughter demons that have infiltrated the cenarion circle. Even then, Illidan FREED demons of the Burning Legion. What do warlocks do? Subjugate them and sacrifice them for our greater power. Show me an instance of a warlock freeing a demon, besides Wilfred Fizzlebang because he summoned something to powerful for him to control.

Last, Show me an instance of a Demon hunter using Fel Fire. (green). I will answer it for you. No Demon hunter Uses Fel-fire at all. All throughout the game you are shown the same standard fire, except when you face Illidan himself. This is the only time you will see it, but you see Blue Fire... Not fel. If you are going to say the green fire elementals... those came from the warglaives themselves, are they have the demonic essence of Azzinoth in them, thus called Flames of Azzinoth, which is according to lore, as the warglaives are DEMONIC weapons. But in all other Instances, they use regular fire magic. So they need to take away Fel-fire from warlocks, which we will not have.

Your "reasoning" is basically saying that every class can become a demon hunter. There is more to being a demon hunter than just being able to metamorph. Hell, I would rather see it in the hands of rogues than warlocks, simply because of lore sake. Most of the original Demon Hunters were Highbourne, meaning they were mages, and battle mages at that. The closest thing we have to Demon hunters in game, is the spell breaker guards of Silvermoon, since being a demon hunter doesnt necessarily mean being in permanent metamorphosis. It is about being an Anti-mage/battle mage , that just so happens to use a diverse set of magic while being agile, which happens to includes metamorphosis as one of the items. But hell, it doesnt need to be called meta at all. Not to true DHs. They dont care what its called. But I guess you wouldnt know that, since you are stuck with shafting only one aspect of the demon hunter into the warlock.

Lets see what the Original demon hunter could do, according to Lore. Well, he started out as a druid, so he can use nature magic. But, he got tired of it, because he found it to boring, and not as powerful as the arcane. So that means Arcane as well is in his tool belt. Well, where is nature magic and arcane magic to be found on a warlock? nowhere. He shows he is versatile in melee combat and stealth. Where is this on the warlock? Well a warlock can stab things, but thats it. Cant even power up there stabs. And no sort of stealth. Well damn. But A warlock can use shadow magic and fire magic... but so can other classes as well. Well that doesnt make them anything new. Oh, but they can use demonic magic... well, thats one unique thing they have in common. Just that. You see, a Warlock only has partial footprint on what a Demon Hunter is. Unless they shaft enough magical elements to equate to 3 individual specs into a single spec... then that is a shit ton of button bloat. But, oh right, you have the illidan fan boys that want perma meta... Yep. So basically you want to place 1 single element of the Demon hunter into a single spec. No.

You can easily make a class about Vengence/bladeweilding, Anti-mage/battlemage, and demonic for a demon hunter class. Shafting it all into a single spec is impossible, and would be overpowered.

[Thimagryn]

DHs exist. Not a s aplayer unbit...but they exist. In game

NPCs aren't relevant to the conversation any more than bringing up the WoW RPG. Sure those characters exist in some form, but they're not the same as a playable class. We've established this many times, we're not talking about Baron Rivendare or Chen Stormstout being playable.

Become a demon?

If you insist that Warlocks can train themselves from being frail spellcasters into master swordsmen, then anyone could delve into the use of fel magic and become a demon with the same proficiency. The result takes them away from their original class into a different territory entirely. The minute Illidan became a Demon Hunter, he was no longer a Sorcerer. The point which he consumed the Skull of Gul'dan, he became a full fledged Demon (or Half-demon, depending on your perspective and source).

Why are Warlocks so closely associated to Illidan? Because he's a Demon. That's why they have an Illidan-based set, that's why they have metamorphosis and that is why they still can't use the Warglaives, despite being 1h swords.

Which is YOUR interpretation and one that defies the ingame evidence.

Frail spellcaster is in the official description. It's not my interpretation, it's Blizzard's definition.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/class/warlock

As physically weak spellcasters bereft of heavy armor, cunning warlocks allow their minions to take the brunt of enemy attacks in order to save their own skin

When you have to start denying what occurs in game to try and make your point - then you've lost. You can argue that melee favoring Warlocks are rare, but you can't argue they don't exist. You might even be able to make a case that your idea that Warlocks are frail is true or likely...but what you can't do is make it universal.

Archdruid Fandral Staghelm is able to use Fire magic and turn into Firecat form. Hell, druids can even get a staff drop that lets them take this form. Would you say that Druids can use Fire magic?

[Talen]

But, Since you so clearly think Grand Warlock is basically a Demon Hunter

Point out one practical difference. You cannot. You can just point out his spell lists as different. That is it.

Gee...having the same spell lists may impress Teriz. If thats the only difference yuo can spot, go bother him. Spell lists are important a: if the spells are iconic (and then that could be worked around) and b: as an indictaion of the deisgn process and thinking behind the class design.

Grand Warlock Nethekurse was designed with weapon based abilities so intended as a meleeing Warlock. Demon Hunters use warlcoks based spells, so it appears Blizzard identifies them alongside warlocks. But not even the players have the same universal spell lists

Oh right... HE MUST BE A DEMON HUNTER SINCE HE CAN MELEE AND HE IS A WARLOCK. No. Just no. Are you going to argue against this?

Argue what?

That he is a Warlock is not the point I was trying to make. So, like everyone else trying to discredit someone, you try to spin it off as something else.

Grand Warlocks Nethekurse is a Warlock. But he is a Warlocks who does just about everything a Demon Hunters does. He embodies the same lore, the same powers, the same magics sued by Demon Hunters. For all intents and purpsoes...he SI a Demon Hunter.

And yet he is a Warlock.

You seem to be under the misapprehension that the two are separate. They aren't. Warlocks and DH are two different flavors of the same class.

So nowhere in his lore does he absorb demonic essence.

Is he a warlock?

No where in his abilities does he empower his weapon like demon hunter

Is he a Warlock?

He wields a 2h sword, not like a demon hunter, but a dk.

You know...that's the biggest difference you've noted. Of course, you presume that no DH anywhere at any time could ever be seen without Warglaives.

His sword play is like a dk and a warrior.

There is a reason Blizzard have stated the DH overlaps with multiple classes.

But that does not justify him being considered anything like a demon hunter, since he has nothing like a demon hunter IN HIS KIT

Except he can cast Warlock spells like Demon Hunters, he can melee like Demon Hunters, he is a member of a class that embodies lore that incorporates Illidan, Sargeras, Demons and the Burning Legion - like Demon Hunters. As a Warlock he shares a class cocnept and theme with Demon Hunters. Blizzards design pathway has the two effectively merged and even sharing a look.

And you're biggest objection is that he wields a 2H sword. Your big major point to show how Warlocks and Demon Hunters are totally separate is that....Nethekurse wields a 2H sword. They occupy pretty much the same design space but the two are totally different because - Nethekurse uses a 2H sword.

what would it take for blizzard to make Warlocks demon hunters? Well alot a major retcons in lore, to start.

A lot being "none".

They cannot even have Kanrethad being Canon then. Why? Because he is the one that created metamorphosis for the warlock class, not illidan.

Well...no. Kanrethad would be the one who spread it to the other specs.

They have to change them from being power hungry mages, that seek more power at any cost, to being self sacrificing warriors.

Since when does personal motivation come from class design? What about all those warlocks who put their soul in peril so they too can fight fire ith fire, so that they too can turn the power of the Legion against itself? Not every Warlock is a power hungry fiend and not every Demon Hunter is a self sacrificing saint.

YOUR opinion here isn't really applicable. Lore shows you wrong.

Do you have any actual examples of lore that would need to be retconned or are you just going to to keep stating your own opinion of things as fact?

Oh, and Demon hunters do not use Demons. Illidan is unique, not the only demon hunter. Want two demon hunters to look at? Sindweller and Altruis. Altruis even tells you that Illidan became what he swore to fought. Sindweller sends you off to kill and slaughter demons that have infiltrated the cenarion circle.

We know of about 9 Demon Hunters. Of these - 8 worked with Demons. The ninth....worships the ground Illidan walked on and makes it quite clear how he feels about Illidan as he sends you off an yet another mission to kill those druid impersonating demons.

When you are going to try and argue lore, make sure you know what you are arguing.

What do warlocks do? Subjugate them and sacrifice them for our greater power.

What do you think Demon Hunters do when they absorb the essence of a demon to empower themselves?

But hell, it doesnt need to be called meta at all. Not to true DHs. They dont care what its called. But I guess you wouldnt know that, since you are stuck with shafting only one aspect of the demon hunter into the warlock.

Call meta what you will, have it do what you want....but what it isn't going to do for anyone other than a Warlock is turn the caster into a Demon. DHs could actually live without it, but they'd lose a lot.

Lets see what the Original demon hunter could do, according to Lore. Well, he started out as a druid, so he can use nature magic.

Mage. Illidan was a Mage. A Mage who was recieving Druidic training but still a mage.

So - you've spent a lot of time and effort ona post that shows you don't know a lot about game design, don't really knwo the game history, and are a little shaky about Warlcoks and DHs as well.

You've tried to dismiss Nethekurse and failed...primarily because you missed the actual point.

A Demon Hunter is nothing more or less than a Warlock who belongs to the DH secret society.

NPCs aren't relevant to the conversation any more than bringing up the WoW RPG

Whether you like it or not, they form part of the DH design space. They embody values and concepts and themes pushed by t he class.

Its great you want to bolster your argument by trying to get rid of them...but things don't work like that. Trying to say that you would be right if only we remove the parts of the game world and lore that show you to be wrong is perhaps not the best course to take. We work with the design space we have, and not the one we'd like to have.

If you insist that Warlocks can train themselves from being frail spellcasters into master swordsmen

Even if we accept that your insistence that Warlocks are frail is correct....we know from ingame that that possibility HAS happened.

It's not my interpretation, it's Blizzard's definition.

Blizzard says weak...YOU say frail.

Archdruid Fandral Staghelm is able to use Fire magic and turn into Firecat form. Hell, druids can even get a staff drop that lets them take this form. Would you say that Druids can use Fire magic?

Does the game and world lore show that a Druid can use Fire magic? Whether that should be available to players is a different question.

EJL

[Stornkin]

Easy way to solve demon hunters without adding a new class. A 4th speck for warlocks, Demon Hunter Spec. Make it the warlock tanking spec, done deal.

[Thimagryn]

Grand Warlock Nethekurse was desigend with weapon based abilities so intended as a meleeing Warlock. Demon Hunters use warlcoks absed spells, so it appears Blizzard identifies them alongside warlocks. But not even the players ahve the same universal spell lists

Grand Warlocks Nethekurse is a Warlock. But he is a Warlocks who does just about everything a Demon Hunters does. He embodies the same lore, the same po2er, the same magics sued by Demon Hunters. For all intents and purpsoes...he SI a Demon Hunter.

EJL

That's a huge leap in logic. Nethekurse can do everything a Demon Hunter does? I didn't see him equip Warglaives, turn into a Demon or shroud himself in flames. I don't remember him being Blind, having ritual tattooes or being trained by Demon Hunters as we've seen other DH NPCs being represented as. The final result is that he's a Warlock, in both lore AND gameplay.

Fighting in melee has to do with the fact he is a Boss. Even Caster bosses like Arcanist Doan and Archbishop Benedictus can use melee attacks. Without something to tank, what else would Tanks do in that fight? It's the result of NPC game mechanics, silly rabbit.

[Talen]

That's a huge leap in logic. Nethekurse can do everything a Demon Hunter does? I didn't see him equip Warglaives, turn into a Demon or shroud himself in flames.

He's a Warlock. He gets to does everything a Warlock can. And warglaives are swords...which Warlocks can use. At best, you are arguing the fine detail of his exact spell lost.

I don't remember him being Blind, having ritual tattooes or being trained by Demon Hunters as we've seen other DH NPCs being represented as.

Which is nothing more or less than lore associated with this secret society of Demon Hunters. Those are THEIR traditions, THEIR rituals.

Fighting in melee doesn't have anything to do with him being a Warlock and all to do with the fact he is a Boss.

Regardless of WHY, the simple fact is that he does. He is part of the game lore, he is part of the Warlocks design space. And he eviscerates the argument about warlocks and melee all by himself

But really - game design practise alone mean a standalone DH class isn't going to happen. Blizzard could ignore those...but why would it? Anything Blizzard can do with a DH it can do with a Warlock. What benefit is there to adding the class over a class concept that hasn't been used?

I'll ask another question - why is it so important that a DH has to be a standalone class? We are talking about a class that shares a huge amount of overlap with existing classes, primarily the Warlock. We are talking about a class that embodies the same class concepts, the same design themes, the same areas of lore s the Warlock. We're talking about a class that shares a visual identity with Warlocks and shares many abilities.

Sure...you can argue about the nitty gritty and get technical and act very literal minded about aspects to try and prod out some differences that are large enough to justify more than a simple spec....

but what is it about the DH class that really demands that it be standalone?

EJL

[Raiju]

He's a Warlock. He gets to does everything a Warlock can. And warglaives are swords...which Warlocks can use. At best, you are arguing the fine detail of his exact spell lost.

Any 'class' can use any 'weapon' outside of game mechanics. A warlock would not be proficient with a difficult to wield weapon like warglaives, in 99% of cases. There'd be no reason to waste time learning such a thing, ESPECIALLY for a short lived race such as orcs.

Regardless of WHY, the simple fact is that he does. He is part of the game lore, he is part of the Warlocks design space. And he eviscerates the argument about warlocks and melee all by himself

He's a 5 man boss. dozens of 'caster' 5 man bosses melee frequently BECAUSE NOT MUCH DESIGN TIME IS PUT INTO THEM (pre-WOD)

[Skayth]

EJL

You know what. You are a troll that ignores everything I and others wrote and do not look up any lore to justify your answers. Your biggest suggestion is that a grand warlock is basically a demon hunter, when I proved he simply is a 1.0-2.0 warlock and resembles more of the Deathknights from 1.0-2.0 and from the 2nd war. You infuriate me beyond belief. You are very special. I pity you. Now what is the Canon lore of a demon hunter, other than Illidan?

"Demon Hunters are dark, shadowy warriors who are shunned by the greater Night Elf society. They made a pact, long ago, to fight against the forces of chaos using its own terrible powers against it. These mysterious warriors ritually blind themselves so that they develop 'spectral sight' that enables them to see demons and undead with greater clarity. They wield demonically charged warblades in battle and even call upon demonic energies to augment their formidable combat skills. Although they are counted as some of the mightiest warriors within the Night Elves' society, the Demon Hunters are always maligned and misunderstood for making their selfless pact with darkness."

They are selfless warriors.
What are warlocks?
Not SELFLESS WARRIORS. Do you have anything to go against this? No you dont. Because, I for one am a warlock who has played his class since vanilla and know all the nice little tidbits about them. You saying that they can be demon hunters makes me sick, since you do not know the lore behind being a warlock. You think its all about fire vs fire? Hahaha, you clearly did not read the black harvest and do the green fire story. What was it about? Gaining more power. Not because we needed it, rather to put the other classes to shame in terms of power. We wanted to be more powerful. Akama asked for our help. What did we do? While he was going off to fight, we looted the gold out the temple. Very Selfless of us.

Oh right... of the 9 demon hunters we know... 2 of them used demons. 2. Who? Illidan and Loramus. All the demons of outland that were under the Illidari were in his control. Why? Because HE FREED THEM from the burning legion. Loramus had 2 felhunters in vanilla, and this was never explained. When he popped up again, he didnt have them. So they could have been retconned out, but you are not going to let that go. W/e. THen the other 7? Well, 4 of them used demon as practice and tend to kill them... (illidari dhs). Sindweller didnt use any demons, rather he kills all the ones he comes across. thats the 5th. SSC dh was completely insane 6th. And Altruis the sufferer killed many demons, denounced illidan, helped us kill the other 4, and left the ones that seeked shelter with naaru alone. thats the 7th. ... So only 2 of them...(if that). But, since you dont understand any of the concept that maybe illidan freed many of the ones that were sent after him, and that maybe the Loramus' felhunters were retconned out since he never mentions them or ever re summons them. Guess what, YOU have no demons being used or summoned. This is from simple lore and retconning, thanks to the Cataclysm UPDATE and the green fire questline. Btw, you Forgot Telarius Voidstrider, the ghost dh, who doesnt do anything with demons. There 10.

are we done here? Or are you going to ignore EVERYTHING again?

[Ielenia]

And still part of the class design space.

The simple fact that Nethekurse no longer represents the Warlocks means he is not part of the design space any longer

He is a Warlock who melees.

It should be pointed out that NPCs rarely represent player classes accordingly.

[Thimagryn]

He's a Warlock. He gets to does everything a Warlock can. And warglaives are swords...which Warlocks can use. At best, you are arguing the fine detail of his exact spell lost.

Are you mixing up your references? Nethekurse does not use Warglaives, and you are using to prove that he is a Demon Hunter? It's absurd.

Which is nothing more or less than lore associated with this secret society of Demon Hunters. Those are THEIR traditions, THEIR rituals.

And by definiton makes them what they are. If you aren't part of that society, you aren't considered a Demon Hunter. We don't know ANYTHING else about their history or backstory beyond what we currently know. So assuming Nethekurse is a Demon Hunter is nothing but your own little crazy headcanon. There's nothing to support your claims, and frankly, you are the only one making these claims.

Regardless of WHY, the simple fact is that he does. He is part of the game lore, he is part of the Warlocks design space. And he eviscerates the argument about warlocks and melee all by himself

So Archbishop Benedictus is a Paladin because he uses Holy Magic offensively? That is your definition of Paladins, remember. Yes, everything you say can eviscerate the argument about Warlocks, but it requires ignorance of lore and official class descriptions. You may as well bring in WoW RPG examples here.

[Raiju]

It's worth mentioning that if a mob had no threatening melee abilities, pre-mop you had 0 reason to use a tank against them as active mitigation didn't exist. It was a limitation of game design to an extent, but also why we had warlock/mage 'tanks' for certain caster units in raids.

[Talen]

Any 'class' can use any 'weapon' outside of game mechanics. A warlock would not be proficient with a difficult to wield weapon like warglaives, in 99% of cases. There'd be no reason to waste time learning such a thing, ESPECIALLY for a short lived race such as orcs.

The game show otherwise. BattleMages, Enchanted Magis, Grand Warlock Nethekurse, Shamans....casters can and do pick up and wield the sword in melee. Why not warlocks?

He's a 5 man boss. dozens of 'caster' 5 man bosses melee frequently BECAUSE NOT MUCH DESIGN TIME IS PUT INTO THEM (pre-WOD)

Irrelevant. Like it or not, argue mechanics all you want, the simple fact is that he does do it.

EJL

[Raiju]

The game show otherwise. BattleMages, Enchanted Magis, Grand Warlock Nethekurse, Shamans....casters can and do pick up and wield the sword in melee. Why not warlocks?



Irrelevant. Like it or not, argue mechanics all you want, the simple fact is that he does do it.

EJL

Actually it's completely relevant as I explained above. Pre-MOP a mob that didn't melee BROKE GROUP GAME MECHANICS. Anyone or anything could tank him, and often non-tanks will take less damage due to other cooldowns. Mobs had to melee back then at least to some extent in 5man content, or we wouldn't have brought tanks for it.

You have a major lack of understanding for basic gameplay in wow and I suggest you learn the basics before even trying to argue about it

I've also never seen any prominent caster melee well OTHER than by spell enhancement lorewise. Game mechanics aside.

[Talen]

The simple fact that Nethekurse no longer represents the Warlocks means he is not part of the design space any longer

He'll be a part of the Warlock design space until the day he is retconned out of existence and not before. You don't like having your entire arguments dismissed because they rely upon you discounting existing game lore? Don't do it. If you have to do a personal retcon for your point to stand, then its a bad point.

Grand Warlock Nethekurse existed, he is part of the Warlock history, a part of the game lore and as such is part of the Warlock design space.

Don't like that? Get a petition together to have him retconned

Actually it's completely relevant as I explained above. Pre-MOP a mob that didn't melee BROKE GROUP GAME MECHANICS.

So what? Are you trying to say the abilities he used didn't actually exist within the game world?

Regardless of why he did it, the truth is he did. Live with it but please don't try the personal retcon route. All you are doing is pointing out that you have no basis for your arguments unless everything that shows you wrong is retconned.

Grand Warlock Nethekurse is a meleeing Warlock. You can't get around it. And as such, he shows that Warlock do have the potential to be meleers. To have a rotation developed around swordplay and melee and still be Warlocks. To be meleers in lore and still be warlocks.

There is no way you can get around that because neither you nor Ielenia have the power to retcon him out of existence.

EJL

[Thimagryn]

The game show otherwise. BattleMages, Enchanted Magis, Grand Warlock Nethekurse, Shamans....casters can and do pick up and wield the sword in melee. Why not warlocks?

EJL

Because that's a strawman argument?

We're talking specifically about Warlocks having a Melee Specialization, which is different from simply picking up a sword and using auto attacks. Warlocks have a defined identity against such, just the same as Mages and Priests. Shamans can, but they've had this as a part of identity from the start. It's not as if we're only now asking for Enhancement spec. They have the groundwork set up for melee combat, including the availability of Agi-Mail.

Cloth Casters do not have that groundwork. Homogenization shows us the direction Blizzard is taking the game, and it's not towards opening up new specs and new roles for existing classes. If anything, removal of Warlock Tanking shows us they don't want it any more.

So let's get it straight. No one is against the idea of a caster can picking up a sword and swinging it in melee. What is ridiculous is to imply this basic action, which any class can do, equates to the possibility of a fully-realized melee spec.

[Ielenia]

Irrelevant. Like it or not, argue mechanics all you want, the simple fact is that he does do it.

Very relevant. As pointed out, he's just a relic of past times when game mechanics were different.

[Talen]

We're talking specifically about Warlocks having a Melee Specialization, which is different from simply picking up a sword and using auto attacks. Warlocks have a defined identity against such, just the same as Mages and Priests.

And yet, in lore, BattleMages and others like them exist. For players, Shamans and Druid both have a melee and caster specs. For Warlocks, we even have a named example in the form of Grand Warlock Nethekurse.

So - why not Warlocks? The 4th spec barrier has been broken...it has been done once, it can be done again. What is there about Warlocks that you do not want a player based melee spec?

EJL