demon hunters did not end with illidain

[MrLordDariusCrowley]

Because the destruction of the Scarlet Crusade by the Lich King took place before TBC..

I'm fairly sure that when you say "the destruction of the Scarlet Crusade by the Lich King" you're referring to the DK intro quests. And I'm also fairly sure that those quests took place around the time of the WotLK pre-patch event.
Reason that I think that that is the case? Becuase during the DK quests you find a letter that says that Naxxramas has disappeared.

Here's the letter:

To High General Abbendis
New Avalon, Scarlet Lands

High General Abbendis,

I hope this letter finds you in good health. My name is Dansel Adams, hunter by trade, Scarlet Crusader by blood. I am writing this letter to inform you that I have witnessed a miracle.

During a routine purging of heathens in the Scourge infested Plaguewood, my party and I were interrupted by a deafening screech coming from the sky. When we looked to the heavens, towards Naxxramas, our jaws dropped to the floor. I tell you this now, High General, 'twas a sight not to be believed! The dread citadel was moving. Slowly at first and then with a thunderous roar - poof - it was gone!

That's right, High General, Naxxramas is gone! No more! Could it be anything other than a miracle of the Light? I say not!

May it be that the impure, unkempt barbarians, are judged and sentenced next. Praise be the Light!

Please let our brothers and sisters know of this miracle, High General.

May the Light preserve you for all eternity so that you may spread the good word until the end of days.

Respectfully,

D. Adams
"The Closer"

And if I'm not mistaken, later during the intro zone you find out that Dalaran has moved to Northrend too, might be mistaken though (should really replay the DK starter zone now that I'm thinking about it).

Naxxramas and Dalaran was removed during the Zombie Apocalypse patch, which took place after the Sunwell had been restored and Kil'Jaeden had been flushed down the toilet. Not to mention during the DK zone the Scarlet Crusade sets sail to Northrend as the Scarlet Onslaught.

Wouldn't make sense for the SC to become the SO and set sail towards Northrend before TBC.
Therefore we can conclude that the Death Knights joined their respective factions right before WotLK, but due to gameplay reasons DKs still had to go through Outland.

As I said earlier, DK's and Pandaren characters have the same timeline problem, so why couldn't that end up happening for a Demon Hunter if they're added as a Hero Class similar to DK's?

Let's say that the expansion after WoD features DH's as a Hero Class, the start as level 85 and go through a leveling zone (like the DK one) and get to level 90 by the end. Then the Demon Hunter has to go through Draenor and get to level 98/100 (whichever they decide to do) and then the Demon Hunter can continue onwards to the new "continent/planet/whatever."
Through gameplay the DH goes through Draneor and helps clean up the Iron Horde mess that Garrosh created, but in Lore not a single Demon Hunter went to Draenor, but instead they skipped from their starter area to the place "Rise of The Burning Conquest: Reckoning: Revengeance" takes place in.

Oh and another little gameplay over lore timeline inconsisteny I just remembered. All races (except for Worgen and Goblin) can become Monks. Those Monks are trained by Pandaren, yet they still go through the Cataclysm leveling experience and the Pandaren didn't join the Horde/Alliance until the start of MoP.

[Realsykes]

-snip-

Look man I'll just tell you right now before you start an endless cycle, whatever you tell Thim on the aspect of Demon Hunters, he will always find something to tell you your idea isn't right, every single idea that nullifies Demon Hunters being introduced, he's heard it, commented on it, whether it's completely assinine or not. He has such a raging hard-on for Demon Hunters it doesn't matter WHAT you say, many of us on here have gone back and forth with him and backed him into many corners but he will always twist shit or just tell you it's "all speculative," or some shit. Kinda like the ole, "God works in mysterious ways," excuse. He's in every Demon Hunter thread ever, and you won't convince him.

[Thimagryn]

*Snip*

Why you hate me so much? I'm just using common sense.

And no, I don't care specifically about Demon Hunters. They're simply the topic of discussion. I would argue for any class just as strongly, be it Bard or Tinker, if someone were to argue against them.

And no, you've never backed me into a corner. You've only quoted stuff from RPG books, which multiple people had to tell you was non-canon. I can't be blamed for your own weak arguments.

[MrLordDariusCrowley]

Paladins don't use psionic-based shadow magic. Priests do.

Pffffff. Give Paladins a Shadow spec, bham problem solved. Now the Priest class is completely irrelevant.

[Realsykes]

Why you hate me so much? I'm just using common sense.

Because this topic has been beaten to death over and over and over, and it's the same arguments, same ideas and concepts, etc. We get it, you fucking LOVE Demon Hunters, but at this point you should just make your own Demon Hunter official thread and redirect people to that thread and stop lengthening these threads.

[Thimagryn]

Pffffff. Give Paladins a Shadow spec, bham problem solved. Now the Priest class is completely irrelevant.

Wow, I hadn't even thought of it that way. That's an even more direct solution to the 'problem' of Priests.

- - - Updated - - -

Because this topic has been beaten to death over and over and over, and it's the same arguments, same ideas and concepts, etc. We get it, you fucking LOVE Demon Hunters, but at this point you should just make your own Demon Hunter official thread and redirect people to that thread and stop lengthening these threads.

Ah, so you love to hate me. I see now.

Sorry, but you have issues you need to deal with. Your problems are not my problems, I can't help if you're obsessed with reading everything I say and get angry about it. If you don't like what I'm saying, then feel free to disagree. It's not like I'm trying to convince you of anything you don't want to believe here.

And I don't know if you read the thread title, but this IS a Demon Hunter thread.

[Jtree]

Because this topic has been beaten to death over and over and over, and it's the same arguments, same ideas and concepts, etc. We get it, you fucking LOVE Demon Hunters, but at this point you should just make your own Demon Hunter official thread and redirect people to that thread and stop lengthening these threads.

This IS an official DH thread, yet y'all have shown up to muck it up anyway.

[Teriz]

Pffffff. Give Paladins a Shadow spec, bham problem solved. Now the Priest class is completely irrelevant.

Well that's the thing, Paladins will never use shadow magic. As soon as that happens, they turn into DKs.

Anyway, I'm out of this topic. Its no longer about Warlocks and DHs, but the flawed idea that Paladins and Priests are the same (when they clearly aren't).

Have fun!

[MrLordDariusCrowley]

Wow, I hadn't even thought of it that way. That's an even more direct solution to the 'problem' of Priests.

Not to mention that if Paladins got the Priest Shadow spec there'd be more than one spec using Int Plate.
While the WoD gear changes does fix that problem to some degree, it's still kind of sad to see only one spec use Int Plate.

- - - Updated - - -

Well that's the thing, Paladins will never use shadow magic. As soon as that happens, they turn into DKs.

Anyway, I'm out of this topic. Its no longer about Warlocks and DHs, but the flawed idea that Paladins and Priests are the same (when they clearly aren't).

Have fun!

Same thing could be said about Warlocks and Demon Hunters.

[diamondjim]

let me put this here

This thread is about

demon hunters did not end with illidan there are many more Demon hunters

Not about why you do not like someone or Teriz playing wanna be dev.

in fucking fact. The op says nothing about them being playable

So Lets get it back on topic and not have Teriz arguing over 150 pages.

- - - Updated - - -

Same thing could be said about Warlocks and Demon Hunters.

Pretty much but he does not use logic.

[Jtree]

Same thing could be said about Warlocks and Demon Hunters.

Could be and has been.

[diamondjim]

Well that's the thing, Paladins will never use shadow magic. As soon as that happens, they turn into DKs.

Anyway, I'm out of this topic. Its no longer about Warlocks and DHs, but the flawed idea that Paladins and Priests are the same (when they clearly aren't).

Have fun!

bye, oh Well Paladins and Priests are the same

Archbishop Alonsus Faol perceived that the pious Clerics of Northshire, who suffered such terrible attrition in the First War, were ill-suited for the dangers of combat. Along with many of the surviving Clerics of Northshire, he sought those of only the greatest virtue among the knighthood of Lordaeron and tutored them in the ways of magic. Led by the crusading Uther the Lightbringer, it rested upon these paladins — christened the Knights of the Silver Hand — to heal the wounds sustained in combat and to restore faith in the promise of freedom from orcish tyranny

So to say warlocks and DH are the same is pretty dumb.

OH and Illidan was a MAGE in the lore prior to being a demon hunter

[Manabomb]

Oh really? Metamorphosis was giving to warlocks in WOTLK pre patch but they added more Demon hunters to Felwood, Blasted lands and Darkshore in Cata



You're opinion nothing more.

More like a fact that the warlock class has basically all of the staples of a demon hunter aside from the shirtlessness, blindedness, warglaives.

[Raiju]

More like a fact that the warlock class has basically all of the staples of a demon hunter aside from the shirtlessness, blindedness, warglaives.

Maybe if you'd read the thread you'd see why this argument is always refuted within the first 100 (of 500+) pages 2000 times.

@Teriz you clearly didn't understand me. Blizzards stance is that a new player STARTS at the current content, which is 90-100 in WoD and will be 100 next expansion (say a legion expansion). There is no gameplay where they'd have to be doing the starter quests, they start straight at old 'max level' with their demon hunter in it's ideal place.

Which is why that argument doesn't work either for demon hunter or any class that has a niche or specific role - it is already covered by the character free boost with expansion deal. Anyone who doesn't have the current expansion isn't even playing relevant lore, so lore isn't a usable argument (as mentioned the time-travelling leveling experience that blizzard are trying to get us to slowly phase out)

[Jtree]

So Lets get it back on topic and not have Teriz arguing over 150 pages.

It's my personal belief that a secret order of Demon Hunters persisted in Kalimdor throughout Illidan's long imprisonment, and quietly dealt with threats that greater Night Elf society never knew about. Such an order could be key to introducing a playable hero class, while explaining the history and uniqueness of the DH.

[zoomgpally]

An opinion backed by facts. We already have a demonic class that hunts demons, and uses their powers against the Legion.

By that logic, rogues have no place in wow because warriors already use weapons.

[Raiju]

It's my personal belief that a secret order of Demon Hunters persisted in Kalimdor throughout Illidan's long imprisonment, and quietly dealt with threats that greater Night Elf society never knew about. Such an order could be key to introducing a playable hero class, while explaining the history and uniqueness of the DH.

and is completely believable considering it would be a role interacting with aegwynn likely

[Talen]

Well Teriz seems to think so

No, he didn't.

What he and others - including myself - have stated is that there isn't really any design space in the game for an Illidan style Demon Hunter. By and large, a Demon Hunter is nothing more nor less than a meleeing warlock. They both associate with, use and are empowered by demon magics. They both have strong ties in lore to demons, the Burning Legion, Sargeras and Illidan. They both fight fire with fire - as in use demon magics and powers against itself. You'll get good warlocks and bad Demon Hunters and vice versa. Demon Hunters can fight at range, Warlocks can fight in melee. Both are ritualistic, both are shunned and mistrusted by their societies. They share abilities, looks, class concept and design themes.

A Demon Hunter is nothing more than a Warlock who belongs to a specific Night Elf secret society, one which teaches the Warlock to focus his training on melee combat and swordplay. That society has its own rites and traditions...but the DH gets uses the same power as warlocks and gets it from the same source as Warlocks for the same reasons. And that is it.

Nobody is really against the idea of DHs in game, nor do people - even Teriz - think they've gone away. But they don't really need to be "added" because they already exist. What they need is viability....and that requires the balancing system that are inherent to a spec.

EJL

[Raiju]

A paladin is nothing more than a priest with martial training. You main a paladin don't you Talen?

And honestly, the difference between a DH and warlock is far greater than that of the priest and paladin, as what I stated is EXACT lorewise.

[Manabomb]

Maybe if you'd read the thread you'd see why this argument is always refuted within the first 100 (of 500+) pages 2000 times.

@Teriz you clearly didn't understand me. Blizzards stance is that a new player STARTS at the current content, which is 90-100 in WoD and will be 100 next expansion (say a legion expansion). There is no gameplay where they'd have to be doing the starter quests, they start straight at old 'max level' with their demon hunter in it's ideal place.

Which is why that argument doesn't work either for demon hunter or any class that has a niche or specific role - it is already covered by the character free boost with expansion deal. Anyone who doesn't have the current expansion isn't even playing relevant lore, so lore isn't a usable argument (as mentioned the time-travelling leveling experience that blizzard are trying to get us to slowly phase out)

But why is that? They had to force a difference between paladins and priests so that they wouldn't be exactly the same class, and I assume they -could- do the same to demon hunters in warlocks. But at that, I only imagine a demon hunter playing like a monk-rogue with warlock spells. On top of that, it's tool kit of demonic staples and melee abilities would ultimately be copy pastes of almost everything else in the game. At the very least monk took a unique approach with the hand to hand combat feel.

And this doesn't even mention the fact they would be shoehorned into using swords, daggers, fistweapons, axes and other weaponry that "aren't" demon huntery.

If anything, a demonhunter introduced in the current World of Warcraft would either be a warlock that plays like a rogue or a monk that has warlock spells.