[Holy] WoD Alpha/Beta Info & Discussion

[xiloclipse]

Sorry I didn't explain that well.

Even without any cap isn't it difficult to take advantage of that in a raid unless you prop a few people up prior to a pull?

I don't know, but if you can look at logs and run a query for max IH shield, I'm guessing it happens more with old gear. Much more with periods that lack damage and EF rolling into IH.

I'd be curious to see some of my logs though, I'll have to look. I'll also have to remember not to count the ones where tell me when broke my raid frames and I started healing off of nameplates. It would be great if my frames/tmw didn't seem to randomly move once in a while.

[Deleted]

From what I understand currently our mastery shield doesn't have a cap. I didn't participate in the raid so I cannot be sure, but I think one of the reasons why holy pallies were doing great is because of this. I believe blizz will put a cap on the shield for life so there is no way of accurately judge the HPS of the pallies from the last raid.
I am curious what will write Aladya about the last raid. I am sure he participated, but I wonder on his pally or druid.
Aladya, if you were raiding on the pally, please share a link to the logs. Thank you.

[Xs]

I don't think anything XS said about caps was accurate.

Hes saying basically the same thing I am.. I'm just giving the generic RPG definition and hes giving the "heres a bit of theorycraft with buffs" version. Point is that crit loses value AGAINST OTHER STATS every time you hit a breakpoint where increasing your crit by 1% more, doesn't necessarily mean you'll be 1% more effective.

Point is that going from 12.5% to 25% crit is an increase of 100%, going from 25% to 50%, is still just 100%, going from 50% to 100%, is going to take an extreme amount more rating than the 12.5% gain you initially got 100% gain from, but it won't really make any difference to your overall performance. You'll be able to measure it as a nice increase in critting on your logs, and you do get the buff from it that is all very nice, but its probably not enough to make the crit stat more valuable after you've hit the certain caps. Those caps being the ones shown above, along with 60% being the AW hard cap, or 80% the glyphed AW hard cap. If Blizzard put in something else to the crit system, that allowed us to gain another type of buff, like how Illumination was working, then ignoring the theoretical caps for raw throughput may be viable, and we'd merely treat crit as "we want these things, the bonus healing it gives directly is just 'nice'".

[Peachpies]

From what I understand currently our mastery shield doesn't have a cap. I didn't participate in the raid so I cannot be sure, but I think one of the reasons why holy pallies were doing great is because of this. I believe blizz will put a cap on the shield for life so there is no way of accurately judge the HPS of the pallies from the last raid.
I am curious what will write Aladya about the last raid. I am sure he participated, but I wonder on his pally or druid.
Aladya, if you were raiding on the pally, please share a link to the logs. Thank you.

Shield not being capped doesn't improve holy paladin healing unless you are intentionally cheesing, and if you are trying to cheese a fight healing-wise you dont need uncapped mastery to do that (double +20% trinkets is enough)

[paladative]

Very bad news. In recent healer tunings, holy paladins are getting the same percentage of scaling up as other healers, this suggests, in the eyes of the dev, holy paladins are at the position they want, or to say current mechanics will be almost for sure come to live. (Hopefully, no more particular Hpally neither)

[taccr]

Its an exact 20% SP scaling buff and we (probably the other healers too) lost our improved Holy Light Perk. So overall not much of a change. (We also lost improved DP)

[Deleted]

We also lost Salvation and EF once again has a 1 second cooldown...

[Deleted]

We also lost Salvation and EF once again has a 1 second cooldown...

Atleast there is still no cap on IH so we can be OP . Wait , what ?

[Tiberria]

Very bad news. In recent healer tunings, holy paladins are getting the same percentage of scaling up as other healers, this suggests, in the eyes of the dev, holy paladins are at the position they want, or to say current mechanics will be almost for sure come to live. (Hopefully, no more particular Hpally neither)

This is intended. They just removed 5 out of 9 Draenor perks for every spec, and baked the numbers buffs into the baseline spells. They didn't actually do any class balance.

That said, Paladins seem to be on par with Druids/Holy Priests on beta, and all 3 of those specs are a good 15-20% ahead of the pack, so if anything, Paladin throughput will be coming down from where it is on the current beta build; I wouldn't expect it to come up.

[Ylera]

salvation gone from ret and holy in latest build

[Deleted]

That said, Paladins seem to be on par with Druids/Holy Priests on beta, and all 3 of those specs are a good 15-20% ahead of the pack, so if anything, Paladin throughput will be coming down from where it is on the current beta build; I wouldn't expect it to come up.

So do you think we have same AOE healing compared to priests/druids ? I dont know if you played paladin or not but our AOE healing dont exist . Thats a huge problem - you throw EF all the time on raid and when some aoe burst healing come , you cant do shit when druid has WG/Shroom/Tranq . Yes , we are doing numbers but it doesnt mean its really useful healing .

[Tiberria]

So do you think we have same AOE healing compared to priests/druids ? I dont know if you played paladin or not but our AOE healing dont exist . Thats a huge problem - you throw EF all the time on raid and when some aoe burst healing come , you cant do shit when druid has WG/Shroom/Tranq . Yes , we are doing numbers but it doesnt mean its really useful healing .

Every class doesn't need to have the same AoE healing, or the same tank healing, or the same ability to manage burst or the same exact type of raid cooldowns, or the same level of mobility. As long as the classes are balanced in such a way that the numbers are reasonably even and you don't have certain classes benched because they aren't viable, they consider healer balance to be in line. Different classes are very much intended to be different.

I don't get your argument that the numbers you are doing are "not useful". Tank healing and raid stabilization is very useful. You could just as easily argue that most of the numbers that HoT heavy healers are doing on beta are "useless padding", because of how much of it is ticking stabilization on 80%+ HP targets that are at no real risk of dying.

[ykiigor]

Many ways for abuse. IH must be with cap

[Deleted]

I don't get your argument that the numbers you are doing are "not useful". Tank healing and raid stabilization is very useful. You could just as easily argue that most of the numbers that HoT heavy healers are doing on beta are "useless padding", because of how much of it is ticking stabilization on 80%+ HP targets that are at no real risk of dying.

I dont consider myself useful when there is aoe dmg going on and i have only few EFs on the raid and can cast maybe one holy radiance .When every single spec just doing much more at that point .


And about tank healing - IF there is fight with one tank tanking most of time , druids are pretty much the same as paladins about tank healing .

[Tiberria]

I dont consider myself useful when there is aoe dmg going on and i have only few EFs on the raid and can cast maybe one holy radiance .When every single spec just doing much more at that point .


And about tank healing - IF there is fight with one tank tanking most of time , druids are pretty much the same as paladins about tank healing .

But, if the numbers line up, you overall are doing the same amount of effective contribution. In fact, absorbs and the EH buffer make them effectively better than raw healing on a 1:1 level in terms of raid contribution.

[Kaeth]

Point is that crit loses value AGAINST OTHER STATS every time you hit a breakpoint where increasing your crit by 1% more, doesn't necessarily mean you'll be 1% more effective.

So does every other stat. Crit isn't unique in that respect. Crit scales linearly in a vacuum, but has breakpoints based upon the values of all your other stats where its relative, marginal utility falls behind. There are no hard, set breakpoints other than those which may be imposed by a class/spec mechanic (ex. 50% crit = 100% HS crit, so crit has diminishing returns past 42.86% from gear/food).

Saying that each point provides a lower multiplicative benefit on your existing power than the one before is true of every stat, even INT. (Otherwise we'd become exponentially more powerful while stacking a single stat.) But all other stats held static, the value of that point delivers the same throughput benefit as the one before.

If Holy Light heals for 10,000, and I go from zero crit to 10%, my average Holy Light output goes to 11,000. That's a gain of 1,000 healing done (ignoring overheals). If I go up to 20%, my average Holy Light output goes to 12,000. Even though that's only a gain of 9.09% over the previous level, it's still a gain of 1,000 healing done.

All you seem to be saying is that stats scale linearly rather than exponentially, and making up arbitrary breakpoints that don't exist.

Crit was bad in MoP because of high overheal and unreliability. If the Cata-esque healing model remains a reality throughout WoD, both of those drawbacks are mitigated. It could be as good as mastery and definitely superior to haste (which offers the same throughput advantage, and is more reliable, but is not mana neutral, which crit is). I think we all need to get over the animosity towards crit that has blossomed ever since it stopped returning mana years ago.

[Freia]

Every class doesn't need to have the same AoE healing, or the same tank healing, or the same ability to manage burst or the same exact type of raid cooldowns, or the same level of mobility. As long as the classes are balanced in such a way that the numbers are reasonably even and you don't have certain classes benched because they aren't viable, they consider healer balance to be in line. Different classes are very much intended to be different.

I don't get your argument that the numbers you are doing are "not useful". Tank healing and raid stabilization is very useful. You could just as easily argue that most of the numbers that HoT heavy healers are doing on beta are "useless padding", because of how much of it is ticking stabilization on 80%+ HP targets that are at no real risk of dying.

Yes because it is completely balanced for druids to have the best mobility, aoe healing(tied with hpriests of course) and some pretty good tank healing. Completely balanced. Can you please leave now? Go back to the druid forums and complain that holy radiance costs 1/4 mana of wild growth (lol, math is hard) and that it is druid's turn to be top healer (I love that their turn just magically lines up with your reroll).

Holy radiance is not worth the mana cost. It is garbage. No it isn't ok that the spell has not been adjusted. And it is not ok to have a healer that is completely helpless in aoe situations and only have a blanket playstyle that does not do useful healing. And you pointed out that druids and holy priests have the same blanket playstyle(raid stabilization!), but you have that in addition to useful heals for aoe damage.

[Tiberria]

Yes because it is completely balanced for druids to have the best mobility, aoe healing(tied with hpriests of course) and some pretty good tank healing. Completely balanced. Can you please leave now? Go back to the druid forums and complain that holy radiance costs 1/4 mana of wild growth (lol, math is hard) and that it is druid's turn to be top healer (I love that their turn just magically lines up with your reroll).

Holy radiance is not worth the mana cost. It is garbage. No it isn't ok that the spell has not been adjusted. And it is not ok to have a healer that is completely helpless in aoe situations and only have a blanket playstyle that does not do useful healing. And you pointed out that druids and holy priests have the same blanket playstyle(raid stabilization!), but you have that in addition to useful heals for aoe damage.

For one thing, trying to shout down dissenting viewpoints, because you don't agree with them and want to live in a nice sheltered echo chamber is not constructive. For another, yes, it is balanced if the numbers actually produced are tuned to be in line with other specs (and this is actually the case right now if you are comparing Holy Paladins with Resto Druids/Holy Priests) and as long as every healer is viable.

What you are asking for is not reasonable. It's a good thing for different healers to have different niches, strengths and weaknesses. Otherwise, you are arguing for every healing spec to be a recolored carbon copy of every other healing spec. On top of that, Holy Paladins have never been a strong AoE healer (barring the anomaly of overbuffed HR during 4.3) and have always been the most immobile or second most immobile healer. If you are expecting that to change, you are expecting something that is not in line with core design/intent/niche of the spec. If it's something you really want, why not just reroll a Druid or Priest instead of trying to change a Holy Paladin into something that it is not?

[Bionix]

How do they expect us to test our spec when they don't give us the proper gear? You can import your level 90 which when scaled will be insanely OP with a 20% amp trinket or you can do a premade 100 which comes with 2 identical trinkets so you lose the proc for one, no spirit on ANY gear and in the latest build, NO INTELLECT SHIELD?!

[Tiberria]

How do they expect us to test our spec when they don't give us the proper gear? You can import your level 90 which when scaled will be insanely OP with a 20% amp trinket or you can do a premade 100 which comes with 2 identical trinkets so you lose the proc for one, no spirit on ANY gear and in the latest build, NO INTELLECT SHIELD?!

There are spirit rings, cloak, neck and INT trinkets in your bags and there is an INT offhand and shield on the gear vendor.