Israel commences ground offensive in Gaza

[apepi]

Well mate, this is a discussion. I already explained my claim as why they had use live fire at the flotilla passengers, if you can't bring a counter argument then we won't get too far revolving this issue. Anyhow, if the Turks will go with this plan this may end up very bad. A country scale provocation for a chance to start a war.

I am pretty sure it has already gone pretty bad, at least someone is trying to do something. What is wrong with a ship coming to help with humanitarian aid? How does the UN(or who ever it happens to be) get their aid to gaza?

[Barendon]

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a

Reading the U.N report it's quite damning, i'm only half-way in but it seems Israel was beyond heavy handed and acted in an equally reprehensible manner and is indicated to be equally at fault, especially for loss of life and the entire incident to begin with.

I do think it shouldve been handled much better on both sides as well. However, if the flotilla did listen to the IDF's instructions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6jDIQr59Sk
All sides would've been more alive and merrier.

[Deleted]

I do think it shouldve been handled much better on both sides as well. However, if the flotilla did listen to the IDF's instructions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6jDIQr59Sk
All sides would've been more alive and merrier.

Are you even capable of admitting fault for Israel?

[Barendon]

I am pretty sure it has already gone pretty bad, at least someone is trying to do something. What is wrong with a ship coming to help with humanitarian aid? How does the UN(or who ever it happens to be) get their aid to gaza?

There's nothing wrong with it, Israel requested that the ship would port in Ashdod for an inspection (Against fire-arms) and will be delivered to Gaza afterwards.

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Are you even capable of admitting fault for Israel?

Of course, I've done so lots of times in this thread and other threads. (Djlail be my witness) I think the current operation in Gaza is Israel's fault for example.

[Deleted]

I do think it shouldve been handled much better on both sides as well. However, if the flotilla did listen to the IDF's instructions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6jDIQr59Sk
All sides would've been more alive and merrier.

Which was explicitly noted by the U.N's report, however, Israel failed completely in exhausting the very basic maritime laws "Required" prior to boarding, and after boarding.

They were also differing in opinion on the shots being fired before hostages were taken, they only agreed that shots were fired DURING the attempt of the boarding in the speedboats, and after the hostages were taken after being deployed via the helicopter.

They did note though that the stun grenades and less than lethal firearms could of been mistaken as lethal firearms when they were deploying from the helicopter, hence the bloodthirsty crowd which they dropped off into.

The report also notes though that those whom organized the flotilla most likely had ulterior motives though, i'll copy and paste it as it was fairly interesting; But the people on board were said to of had a genuine concern for the people in Gaza.

[Barendon]

Which was explicitly noted by the U.N's report, however, Israel failed completely in exhausting the very basic maritime laws "Required" prior to boarding, and after boarding.

They were also differing in opinion on the shots being fired before hostages were taken, they only agreed that shots were fired DURING the attempt of the boarding in the speedboats, and after the hostages were taken after being deployed via the helicopter.

They did note though that the stun grenades and less than lethal firearms could of been mistaken as lethal firearms when they were deploying from the helicopter, hence the bloodthirsty crowd which they dropped off into.

The report also notes though that those whom organized the flotilla most likely had ulterior motives though, i'll copy and paste it as it was fairly interesting; But the people on board were said to of had a genuine concern for the people in Gaza.

Given that (and I read the summary of that report) I still don't think you can label Israel guilty in this incident. It's true that Israel should've warned the ship it's going to board soldiers on it, but that was the approach that they were going after. The element of surprise. They hoped they will be able to neutralize any threat easier this way, and this course of action proved to be the wrong approach. Anyway that's the only "required" thing the IDF missed , at least from the summary of the report, correct me if I am wrong?

[Deleted]

Given that (and I read the summary of that report) I still don't think you can label Israel guilty in this incident. It's true that Israel should've warned the ship it's going to board soldiers on it, but that was the approach that they were going after. The element of surprise. They hoped they will be able to neutralize any threat easier this way, and this course of action proved to be the wrong approach. Anyway that's the only "required" thing the IDF missed , at least from the summary of the report, correct me if I am wrong?

The Panel questions whether it was reasonable for the Israeli Navy to board the
vessels at the time and place that they did. There are several factors to be weighed in that
equation. The boarding commenced at approximately 4.30 a.m., before dawn had
broken.345 The distance from the blockade zone was substantial—64 nautical miles.346
There were several hours steaming before the blockade area would be reached. Then
there is the fact that the boarding attempt was made by surprise, without any immediate
prior warning.347 The last radio warning had been transmitted at some point between
12.41 a.m. and 2.00 a.m.—at least two and a half hours prior to the boarding
commencing.348 The vessels were never asked to stop or to permit a boarding party to
come on board. No efforts were made to fire warning shells or blanks in an effort to
change the conduct of the captains. While it must have been clear to the flotilla captains
that the Israeli Navy had been shadowing them for some time, nothing was
communicated about the immediate intentions of the IDF to board the vessels by force

I mean, i'm not an expert on maritime law; But the U.N was pretty strong in its disagreement with the approach Israels navy took, will update this post with more statements the above was a basic commentary before dipping into it more intricately.

The resort to boarding without warning or consent and the use of such substantial
force treated the flotilla as if it represented an immediate military threat to Israel. That
was far from being the case and is inconsistent with the nature of the vessels and their
passengers, and the finding contained in Israel’s report that significant violent resistance
to boarding was not anticipated.357 It seems to us to have been too heavy a response too
quickly. It was an excessive reaction to the situation

The decision made to board the vessels in the way that was done was a significant
causative factor in the consequences that ensued. The Panel shares the view expressed in
the Israeli report that “clear warnings and the controlled and isolated use of force may
have helped avoid a wider and more violent confrontation such as the one that
occurred.”358 An explicit prior warning that force would be used to board the vessels if
they did not stop immediately and a show of dissuading force—such as a shot across the bow—would have been prudent in light of the number of passengers on board the flotilla
vessels, particularly the Mavi Marmara.

117. Israel’s decision to board the vessels with such substantial force at a great
distance from the blockade zone and with no final warning immediately prior to the
boarding was excessive and unreasonable:
a. Non-violent options should have been used in the first instance. In
particular, clear prior warning that the vessels were to be boarded and a
demonstration of dissuading force should have been given to avoid the type
of confrontation that occurred;
b. The operation should have reassessed its options when the resistance to the
initial boarding attempt became apparent so as to minimize casualties.

[Barendon]

I mean, i'm not an expert on maritime law; But the U.N was pretty strong in its disagreement with the approach Israels navy took, will update this post with more statements the above was a basic commentary before dipping into it more intricately.

The IDF in retrospect will probably agree with this as well.
EDIT: excessive as it may have been, it turned out that the IDF was seemingly unexcessively prepared for this threat. While I agree it was not a military threat prior to the boarding, it did at some point turn into a military threat. Hence the use of lethal weapons.
EDIT2: "The decision made to board the vessels in the way that was done was a significant
causative factor in the consequences that ensued. The Panel shares the view expressed in
the Israeli report that “clear warnings and the controlled and isolated use of force may
have helped avoid a wider and more violent confrontation such as the one that
occurred.”358 An explicit prior warning that force would be used to board the vessels if
they did not stop immediately and a show of dissuading force—such as a shot across the"
Disagree completely. Either way if the soldiers boarded the ships they would've been greeted the way they did. They had ropes ,knives and metal rods prepared.

Well, because the main post was edited heavily , I'll be addressing this post to Manakin only to read in the order of his edits P:

[apepi]

There's nothing wrong with it, Israel requested that the ship would port in Ashdod for an inspection (Against fire-arms) and will be delivered to Gaza afterwards.

Do the activist themselves get to deliver it in their own ship?

[Barendon]

Do the activist themselves get to deliver it in their own ship?

No. But a representative can be there to make sure it passes safely through the border.

[Deleted]

The IDF in retrospect will probably agree with this as well.
EDIT: excessive as it may have been, it turned out that the IDF was seemingly unexcessively prepared for this threat. While I agree it was not a military threat prior to the boarding, it did at some point turn into a military threat. Hence the use of lethal weapons.

Which Israel was directly the cause for, due to the overpowering and disproprtioante force utilized upon a civilian vessel; As stated in the report, however.

It was also noted that a certain amount of people in the vessel were overtly hostile to the prospect of being bordered beforehand, but they were not in a position to do anything, and indeed they never had a chance to exercise such an opinion due to the immediate raid/ attack/ boarding Israel committed.

There's a lot of fault on both sides, but Israel was never able to justify how they "Executed" a wounded man with a shot in the head as he lay bleeding, or those who were shot in the back as they were fleeing without being armed.

Turkey gives a rather biased view which i won't link, and Israel won't explain it.

[apepi]

No. But a representative can be there to make sure it passes safely through the border.

Then I do not accept being reasonable. These people come to help, not only with food and medicine but also the services that they can give them. Also Israel doing it is a conflict of interest and it must be administered by a third party.

[Barendon]

Which Israel was directly the cause for, due to the overpowering and disproprtioante force utilized upon a civilian vessel; As stated in the report, however.

It was also noted that a certain amount of people in the vessel were overtly hostile to the prospect of being bordered beforehand, but they were not in a position to do anything, and indeed they never had a chance to exercise such an opinion due to the immediate raid/ attack/ boarding Israel committed.

There's a lot of fault on both sides, but Israel was never able to justify how they "Executed" a wounded man with a shot in the head as he lay bleeding, or those who were shot in the back as they were fleeing without being armed.

Turkey gives a rather biased view which i won't link, and Israel won't explain it.

Well, we're still humans after all and the soldiers who got assaulted probably reacted badly due to how messy this whole thing was, by no means am I supporting shooting unharmed civilians in the back or executing a wounded.
The report excerpts you quoted only mention the fact that Israel could have done more than they did with their warnings and also the disproportionate force the soldiers were using and still it did not prevent them from being thrown with almost no self defense to help them against the rioting passengers. A disproportionate force would've not allowed any of the passenger to get anywhere close to them to begin with, let alone risk their lives (or throw one of them off board)

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Then I do not accept being reasonable. These people come to help, not only with food and medicine but also the services that they can give them. Also Israel doing it is a conflict of interest and it must be administered by a third party.

You mean doctors? they are allowed to get in as well. Others will have to make an Israel visa and enter Gaza like everyone else.

[Deleted]

Well, we're still humans after all and the soldiers who got assaulted probably reacted badly due to how messy this whole thing was, by no means am I supporting shooting unharmed civilians in the back or executing a wounded.
The report excerpts you quoted only mention the fact that Israel could have done more than they did with their warnings and also the disproportionate force the soldiers were using and still it did not prevent them from being thrown with almost no self defense to help them against the rioting passengers. A disproportionate force would've not allowed any of the passenger to get anywhere close to them to begin with, let alone risk their lives (or throw one of them off board)

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You mean doctors? they are allowed to get in as well. Others will have to make an Israel visa and enter Gaza like everyone else.

Well, we're still humans after all and the soldiers who got assaulted probably reacted badly due to how messy this whole thing was, by no means am I supporting shooting unharmed civilians in the back or executing a wounded.

I won't disagree with that thought, only, it depresses me; But i won't turn around and say Israel is the only nation who has had similar things occur.

The report excerpts you quoted only mention the fact that Israel could have done more than they did with their warnings and also the disproportionate force the soldiers were using and still it did not prevent them from being thrown with almost no self defense to help them against the rioting passengers.

The report says the amount of sheer excessive force utilized prior to landing via helicopter was the primary factor of the reception the Israeli team received.

You've stated you disagree with that assessment though from the U.N, and indeed, the Israeli report also echoes you sentiment expressed; And then the Turkish report went ape-shit stating multiple laws were broken so on so forth prior to landing on the ship.

A disproportionate force would've not allowed any of the passenger to get anywhere close to them to begin with, let alone risk their lives (or throw one of them off board)

Well, that's as true inasmuch that you'd of needed to shoot them all with live rounds; And that'd be a blood bath, not disproportionate force.

Or well, it'd be both actually...

Dark as fuck

It just feels like Israel white washed it all with their report, turkey went balls deep and assigned all the blame to Israel, and the U.N is trying to be as impartial as can be between two powerful nations with a distinct loathing of each other after the event.

[apepi]

You mean doctors? they are allowed to get in as well. Others will have to make an Israel visa and enter Gaza like everyone else.

Something like that, I don't accept Israel being a impartial person to administer those visas. The thought of Israel being the ones to allow the people to come and help into Gaza for the damage they caused is hilariously ironic.

[2about]

I agree, very ironic and stupid to even suggest that.

[Mahourai]

The Gaza flotilla raid is a little off-topic, but:

Who started the violence?
This is disputed. The activists say the commandos started shooting as soon as they hit the deck. Israeli officials say the commandos opened fire only after being attacked with clubs, knives and a gun which was taken from them. Video released by the Israeli military stops just before the shooting begins. A UN inquiry was apparently unable to determine at exactly which point the commandos used live fire.

Source

The Mission does not find it plausible that soldiers were holding their weapons and firing as they descended on the rope. However, it has concluded that live ammunition was used from the helicopter onto the top deck prior to the descent of the soldiers.

...

During the operation to secure control of the top deck, the Israeli forces landed soldiers from three helicopters over a 15-minute period. The Israeli forces used paintballs, plastic bullets and live ammunition, fired by soldiers from the helicopter above and soldiers who had landed on the top deck. The use of live ammunition during this period resulted in fatal injuries to four passengers,and injuries to at least 19 others, 14 with gunshot wounds. Escape points to the bridge deck from the top deck were narrow and restricted and as such it was very difficult for passengers in this area to avoid being hit by live rounds. At least one of those killed was using a video camera and not involved in any of the fighting with the soldiers.

...

Israeli soldiers continued shooting at passengers who had already been wounded, with live ammunition, soft baton charges (beanbags) and plastic bullets. Forensic analysis demonstrates that two of the passengers killed on the top deck received wounds compatible with being shot at close range while lying on the ground: Furkan Doğan received a bullet in the face and İbrahim Bilgen received a fatal wound from a soft baton round (beanbag) fired at such close proximity to his head that parts such as wadding penetrated his skull and entered his brain. Furthermore, some of the wounded were subjected to further violence, including being hit with the butt of a weapon, being kicked in the head, chest and back and being verbally abused. A number of the wounded passengers were handcuffed and then left unattended for some time before being dragged to the front of the deck by their arms or legs.

Source

The Gaza flotilla could factually be described as a publicity stunt, seeing as they had no chance of actually running the blockade. This makes Israeli military conduct during the operation even more disgusting. The IDF fired upon the Mavi Marmara before there was any kind of confrontation with the activists, and an AJ producer on the scene at the time attested that this resulted in a death and other injuries before the ships were boarded. Two unarmed, subdued activists were shot in the head execution-style. It was a god damn disaster on the part of the IDF as they butchered a bunch of hippies and pacifists. The trumped-up horseshit about the danger the IDF was in is just that.

EDIT:

http://idfspokesperson.files.wordpre...2010/06/12.jpg

This is probably the best example of how ludicrous the propaganda about the flotilla was. This, straight from the IDF's blog, is the collection of "weapons" found aboard the Mavi Marmara. This is very, very obviously just every single cutting or stabbing implement on board the ship categorized as a threatening weapon. Highlights include saws, paint scrapers, knives from a kitchen set, a ceremonial religious knife, and wine bottle openers. Clearly indicative of the deadly nature of the peace activists!

[Deleted]

The trumped-up horseshit about the danger the IDF was in is just that.

They now what happen on SS Exodus 1947, a similarity public stunt, then Jews violent resisted the English takeover of the ship. For the English it was a PR disaster, but the Israel spin doctors and damage control was greatly superior to the English.

[Netherspark]

Gaza's main hospital has just been hit by an Israeli airstrike.

It's too soon for worthwhile sources, reports are just coming in.

[Mavett]

There wasn't an Israeli strike in the area, already confirmed by all media channels in Israel relying on Military sources.

Looks more like a failed rocket launch.