Subterfuge / Burst of Speed

[Feali]

I've seen a lot of furious posts these days about Subterfuge and Burst of Speed. I can see how those two are annoying and Subterfuge is getting addressed in WoD but Burst of Speed has been left untouched (for now).
What do you think: Are BoS and Subterfuge "overpowered"? Would we be alright without them? What would you do to change this?

[jSewell]

Both talents are a little dumb, in my opinion, Burst of Speed moreso. They need to scrap the ability, honestly, it has shown itself to be too hard to be balanced. It's either too strong or too weak. I'd love for them to make Shadow Step baseline and make that talent row about modifying our existing movement abilities (ShS and Sprint) instead of adding more. Bring back a useful slow % to crippling poison and we'd be good.

The real problem is they have given so much mobility to so many classes, that with the loss of a good Crippling Poison and more sustained damage, we've had to use BoS just to be able to choose when to engage and when to run away.

Subterfuge change is appropriate, allows better counterplay

[Deleted]

Agreed, would rather have the tier be all about shadowstep, lower cooldown, 2 charges but higher CD, or give the speed boost it does now.

It's really awkward to have both BoS and Sprint.

[Wow]

Agreed, would rather have the tier be all about shadowstep

This would be the best thing they could do to make everyone happy also happens to be the least likely to happen. If they do anything most likely they will nerf bos and leave us with 2 dead talents in one row.

[jSewell]

It'd be nice if they made the tier affect both ShS and Sprint.

For Example:

Talent 1
Lowers the cooldown of Sprint and Shadowstep by 30%

Talent 2
Shadowstep and Sprint remove slows and roots and make the Rogue immune to such effects for 3 seconds

Talent 3
Shadowstep now has 2 charges, but also increases the rogue's run speed by 50% for 4 seconds after using it
20 second recharge

[Kezotar]

It's really awkward to have both BoS and Sprint.

Make it so you lose "Sprint" for "Burst of Speed" .. Tune the speed down, add a CD and remove the energy cost. Let it still remove slow, however with a fair cooldown. Just getting rid of slows is stupid.

[Artorius]

Burst of speed is necessary in it's current form because of pvp implications at MoP, too much slows everywhere and for everyone.
WoD is supposed to fix that issue by removing some cc from the game, which will make BoS too strong if it remains what it is.

Sincerely, in my opinion rogues could run faster passively but nothing too big, 25~30% would not feel broken.
Regardless of that, shadowstep baseline with a talent roll to improve it differently would feel modern.

[Kezotar]

Burst of speed is necessary in it's current form because of pvp implications at MoP, too much slows everywhere and for everyone.
WoD is supposed to fix that issue by removing some cc from the game, which will make BoS too strong if it remains what it is.

Sincerely, in my opinion rogues could run faster passively but nothing too big, 25~30% would not feel broken.
Regardless of that, shadowstep baseline with a talent roll to improve it differently would feel modern.

Yeah, let's give rogue a passive 30% speed. with a sprint on 1 min cd )

[Deleted]

just buff shadowstep

[Wow]

Burst of speed is necessary in it's current form because of pvp implications at MoP, too much slows everywhere and for everyone.
WoD is supposed to fix that issue by removing some cc from the game, which will make BoS too strong if it remains what it is.

Nope wod has about the same amount of snares as mop more were added than were removed and some of the new ones are worse than before like adding in auto shot slows...

That's what a lot of people don't seem to get bos only breaks one thing and the problem with those they aren't changing its getting worse. And just to point out while bos doesn't do anything to roots they haven't fixed anything on that either anything that shits outs roots on live still does it in wod. Things haven't got any better on snares and roots in wod.

[Squirl]

Burst of speed is necessary in it's current form because of pvp implications at MoP, too much slows everywhere and for everyone.
WoD is supposed to fix that issue by removing some cc from the game, which will make BoS too strong if it remains what it is.

Sincerely, in my opinion rogues could run faster passively but nothing too big, 25~30% would not feel broken.
Regardless of that, shadowstep baseline with a talent roll to improve it differently would feel modern.

We already run at 125% on beta passively. 135% if you have a WW in your raid.

[Wow]

just buff shadowstep

If you do that there's just one talent choice the whole tier needs a redo to put rogue mobility on power with other classes but not with something like bos.

[Eblis]

Nothing just leave it as it is. Burst of speed it the best talent choice.

[Deleted]

If you do that there's just one talent choice the whole tier needs a redo to put rogue mobility on power with other classes but not with something like bos.

yeah that's the thing with those new 'talents'

they're not choices, they're obligations

[Deleted]

The problem is mainly that rogues suffer a lot from being unstealthed, and with all the major aoe effects that have been given to various classes this expansion, it's quite hard for a rogue to stay in stealth.
First lock insane aoe should have priest Halo treatmant, then Faerie Fire cd and duration should be looked and of course Camo+flare combo should have reduced duration and incresed cd, then Subterfurge can be removed from game. You cant go in RGB or arena groups without utility (and necesity) of subterfuge.

[Deleted]

yeah fearie fire needs to be deleted, most stupid ability ever in pvp

lol I pressed a button, mommy look at me, now you can't stealth for an eternity unless you have cloak or a dispel hehe

[Abysal]

Make it so you lose "Sprint" for "Burst of Speed" .. Tune the speed down, add a CD and remove the energy cost. Let it still remove slow, however with a fair cooldown. Just getting rid of slows is stupid.

Agree with this. I've had the exact same idea before. I just wish the devs would listen.

We already run at 125% on beta passively. 135% if you have a WW in your raid.

With the changes to the way run speed stacks, and the +run speed tertiary stat, I imagine most of us will have another 10-20% speed by the time we're fully geared counting the enchant that they'll probably have.

[thabris]

Considering we still have plenty of weaknesses as a class, why nerf these? Aren't we still underrepresented as a class overall and in pvp? Doesn't everyone feel some other class they don't play has some "super powered OP talent nerf plz"?

I understand that people don't like being ganked and dying in openers, but isn't that our thing?

[Deleted]

Considering we still have plenty of weaknesses as a class, why nerf these? Aren't we still underrepresented as a class overall and in pvp? Doesn't everyone feel some other class they don't play has some "super powered OP talent nerf plz"?

I understand that people don't like being ganked and dying in openers, but isn't that our thing?

yeah but doesn't it feel kinda stupid to spam Burst of lolz all the damn time? I'd rather use Shadowstep and make actual meaningful decisions instead of mindlessly spamming burst of lolz.

[thabris]

yeah but doesn't it feel kinda stupid to spam Burst of lolz all the damn time? I'd rather use Shadowstep and make actual meaningful decisions instead of mindlessly spamming burst of lolz.

I do miss having shadowstep simply because of how long I've had it as a rogue, but I don't think there's a way for them to balance mobility talents so that 1 isn't always the clear winner.