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[Frozen Death Knight]

Man, this is rich. I just had an ETC saying that it is because of me that he could not land a good Mosh Pit while the opponent's ETC kept landing them several times while I was playing Greymane. Never mind the fact that we were constantly a talent short all game when doing team fights or that we needed to farm xp when that happened, since obviously going for the shrine on Eternal Shrines is such a great idea. Hope you do not mind the great dose of sarcasm in this statement.

[Lesane]

This is a Panda Salt Announcement:

I am salty as fuck watching the NA game Tempo Storm vs AA. TS picks Lili, sweet right? My favorite hero is finally getting played by pros!.....No. Wtf is this build? This is not the build you play Lili as. There are so many great Lili builds, but that is not one of them.

You want a good Lili Build Tempo Storm? Ill give you some. My classic Q+E=WD build. So much damage, and a good amount of healing. CC Build Vs Illidan, CC Slow Build, Standard Q Build, Serpent Build. There are many great Lili builds out there. But what ever you are running Tempo Storm, is not one of them.

You may ask why? Timeless Creature is a perfectly good talent! Yes it is...When you run a full serpent build, Lili is a hero that relies on talent synergy, if you pick a talent because you think it is the best in the tier...you will not go well. Okay lets look at his next talent, Mass Vortex, Greta talent!....Still the same probelm as the last one...Why are you picking this up? You did not pick up Surging Winds, Hindering Winds or Gale Force, since you are facing an Illidan you should pick Lingering Blinds if you feel you need to counter him.

And now we come to Shake It Off...What the hell? I understand they have two stuns, Uther and ETC....But why pick it up? ETC stun is negligible, It last 1.25 seconds, Uther's is just one second. So you wont get stunned for like .31 or .25 seconds. But heres the thing....If you are getting stunned by Lili, you have already lost. You are not moving enough. If you already believe you are going to get stunned, you are playing Lili wrong and playing way to close to the enemy.

The rest of his build was standard but...How can a pro player pick some of the worst talents that have no synergy at all???????Look thanks for trying to play Lili in a pro match...but at least learn her builds before you decide to. I literally felt embarrassed how he play her. People will think Lili is not competitive because of this. Im not a pro player, but I have played a shit load of Lili games(529) and am level 20 on her. My current win rate with Lili with Water Dragon is 56%(mostly even as single support). And i feel like if I was playing in this Lili's(Goku) place Tempo Storm would have done much better.

I am seriously thinking about making a Lili guide now, when even pros don't know how to play/build her we have a problem.

The stuff you can get away with in QM doesn't translate to what is good in competitive games. He probably went Timeless Creature because he wasn't the solo healer and the other talents besides Conjurer's Pursuit and TC are pretty shit. Since he won't need to spam heals he won't need CP. Mass Vortex is probably so the blind on Illidan is guaranteed because even though a 3 second blind is better than a 2 second one on Illidan, you're not guaranteed to hit him if you leave it up to the AI to select 2 targets. Not to mention that Mass Vortex is a 100% increase in effectiveness over Lingering Blind's 50% increase. Even though Illidan might get blinded for less, you're also blinding two extra targets which will probably result in more AA damage being reduced. Shake It Off is also a very normal choice when the enemy has Uther, E.T.C. and Falstad. Better than the other talents at least.

Li Li just sucks ass in competitive, it has very little to do with how you build her.

[apepi]

The stuff you can get away with in QM doesn't translate to what is good in competitive games. He probably went Timeless Creature because he wasn't the solo healer and the other talents besides Conjurer's Pursuit and TC are pretty shit. Since he won't need to spam heals he won't need CP. Mass Vortex is probably so the blind on Illidan is guaranteed because even though a 3 second blind is better than a 2 second one on Illidan, you're not guaranteed to hit him if you leave it up to the AI to select 2 targets. Not to mention that Mass Vortex is a 100% increase in effectiveness over Lingering Blind's 50% increase. Even though Illidan might get blinded for less, you're also blinding two extra targets which will probably result in more AA damage being reduced. Shake It Off is also a very normal choice when the enemy has Uther, E.T.C. and Falstad. Better than the other talents at least.

Li Li just sucks ass in competitive, it has very little to do with how you build her.

He should have went Gale Force then if he was going to go Mass Vortex. You can easily blind Illidan with Lingering Bling since hes melee, you just have to be in the right position. And he could have gone Pitch Perfect, The Good Stuff or Lighting Serpent(I mean he did go Timeless).

How you build her is everything. It is like trying to go an Auto attack build with Li-Ming or a pure Q build on BW. Your build can be huge, it can make or break a hero.

And many of my Lili games are not just QM games, I play her in Hero League. I am level 20 with her and I know what I am talking about. Lili is bad competitively because no one knows how to play it, and it shows.

[Lesane]

He should have went Gale Force then if he was going to go Mass Vortex. You can easily blind Illidan with Lingering Bling since hes melee, you just have to be in the right position. And he could have gone Pitch Perfect, The Good Stuff or Lighting Serpent(I mean he did go Timeless).

How you build her is everything. It is like trying to go an Auto attack build with Li-Ming or a pure Q build on BW. Your build can be huge, it can make or break a hero.

And many of my Lili games are not just QM games, I play her in Hero League. I am level 20 with her and I know what I am talking about. Lili is bad competitively because no one knows how to play it, and it shows.

What would Gale Force achieve? The damage on the E is hardly noteworthy and buffing it by 50% does very little. It's 276 damage from that talent (scaling upwards of course) every 10 seconds if you hit 4 targets every time. Using that on cooldown gives you a whopping 28 DPS spread out over 4 targets (12 DPS per target), hardly impressive. Timeless Creature gives half of that but unlike Blinding Winds you want to use your Serpent on CD anyway so you're going to get full value out of it whereas with Blinding Wind you obviously want to save it for a proper timing. They went with Li Li because they wanted the blind and Shrink Ray for Illidan, not because they wanted another damage dealer.

As for Lingering Blind, you Blind Illidan and another target 1 second longer but with Mass Vortex you Blind 2 extra targets for 2 seconds. It's 2 seconds of extra blind vs. 4 seconds of extra blind (assuming you hit the full amount of targets every time). Even if Illidan is blinded for 1 second less there was a good chance that Falstad would get blinded or something, and Falstad being blinded for 2 seconds beats 1 second of longer blind on Illidan. Not to mention that Mass Vortex simply makes it easier to guarantee the blind on Illidan.

I also don't see why he should go Good Stuff or Bouncing Serpent over Shake It Off vs. a team with 3 stuns. It's far more important that he doesn't get blown up in a stun than adding a miniscule amount of healing or damage. Again, they wanted Li Li for Shrink Ray and Blind to counter Illidan, they didn't want a damage dealer because no one in their right mind would take Li Li over a proper damage dealer or healer.

Trust me, if Li Li was worth playing competitively a pro would've figured it out by now. You're not the only person in the world who sees the blatantly obvious synergies between some of Li Li's talents, that doesn't mean that if you just build her like that she's a good hero all of a sudden. We've had plenty of instances where heroes which were regarded as bad were somehow figured out by a certain pro and brought them into the competitive scene. This has never happened with Li Li. That's not coincidence, it's a problem with Li Li and not the pro players. She's fine for Hero League and other forms of unorganized play, but in professional tournaments it's a move of desperation that has failed every single time it was tried. Li Li is pretty much the most retard friendly support character in the game and she's not hard to learn or play at all, she's not some kind of crazy high skillcap hero that people haven't figured out yet.

[apepi]

What would Gale Force achieve? The damage on the E is hardly noteworthy and buffing it by 50% does very little. It's 276 damage from that talent (scaling upwards of course) every 10 seconds if you hit 4 targets every time. Using that on cooldown gives you a whopping 28 DPS spread out over 4 targets (12 DPS per target), hardly impressive. Timeless Creature gives half of that but unlike Blinding Winds you want to use your Serpent on CD anyway so you're going to get full value out of it whereas with Blinding Wind you obviously want to save it for a proper timing. They went with Li Li because they wanted the blind and Shrink Ray for Illidan, not because they wanted another damage dealer.

As for Lingering Blind, you Blind Illidan and another target 1 second longer but with Mass Vortex you Blind 2 extra targets for 2 seconds. It's 2 seconds of extra blind vs. 4 seconds of extra blind (assuming you hit the full amount of targets every time). Even if Illidan is blinded for 1 second less there was a good chance that Falstad would get blinded or something, and Falstad being blinded for 2 seconds beats 1 second of longer blind on Illidan. Not to mention that Mass Vortex simply makes it easier to guarantee the blind on Illidan.

I also don't see why he should go Good Stuff or Bouncing Serpent over Shake It Off vs. a team with 3 stuns. It's far more important that he doesn't get blown up in a stun than adding a miniscule amount of healing or damage. Again, they wanted Li Li for Shrink Ray and Blind to counter Illidan, they didn't want a damage dealer because no one in their right mind would take Li Li over a proper damage dealer or healer.

Trust me, if Li Li was worth playing competitively a pro would've figured it out by now. You're not the only person in the world who sees the blatantly obvious synergies between some of Li Li's talents, that doesn't mean that if you just build her like that she's a good hero all of a sudden. We've had plenty of instances where heroes which were regarded as bad were somehow figured out by a certain pro and brought them into the competitive scene. This has never happened with Li Li. That's not coincidence, it's a problem with Li Li and not the pro players. She's fine for Hero League and other forms of unorganized play, but in professional tournaments it's a move of desperation that has failed every single time it was tried. Li Li is pretty much the most retard friendly support character in the game and she's not hard to learn or play at all, she's not some kind of crazy high skillcap hero that people haven't figured out yet.

Because to actually get a worthful serpent it has to be on the target a good amount of time, with Gale Force it is just a push of a button and it is very effective.

A Lingering Blind on an Illidan who just jumped in your group is a dead Illidan if your team is good at focus firing, that is why. There team did not have three stuns, only 2. And im not sure if Falstad even went his stun....if you count that. The good stuff give more heals, and Bouncing give more damage. Lili might not be the best damage dealer...or the best healer but what is she good at? The best at doing both of those things at the same time. No one is better than her at that.

Lili does have a low skill cap, but she also has a very large skill wall that people do not seem to notice. And the heroes you speak up, do not get better because they are missing a high skill cap, but because other heroes get nerfed and the hero that didn't replaces that hero. This is hugely shown in the past with Warriors. But people don't even attempt to play her because of things like this, they misjudge what she is able to do and because they don't play her that much they are not as experienced with her as other heroes.

[Nerraw]

Some days you just have that one game you will never want to talk about again. This is one of those days...... People have been amazing... -ly bad tonight.

[Frozen Death Knight]

QM matchmaking is utterly and completely broken. I have lost 8 out of 11 games when playing Greymane today. I'm getting matches where the enemy keeps destroying my team and it is so one sided that it is not fun at all. Last game I had 2 kills done by our team against 22 for the enemy. How is this acceptable matchmaking? How is this supposed to be fun when you get broken comps and players who either AFK, DC, or throw the game when we have a chance to turn it around and win?

Unranked draft is a simple must if you want to have any fun outside of Hero League.There is no other way to fix the completely nonsensical, broken, and unfun game mode that is QM.

[Nerraw]

Lose 102 points when Kael left at level 4 and never came back. Win 97 points in a full team.

I have no words for this point system.

- - - Updated - - -

You can tilt people so hard on Garden of Terror with Murky.

[Lesane]

Because to actually get a worthful serpent it has to be on the target a good amount of time, with Gale Force it is just a push of a button and it is very effective.

Their enemy team was running ETC+Illidan+Uther. There's always going to be a target in range taking damage from the serpents because the enemy team has a comp that wants to engage.

A Lingering Blind on an Illidan who just jumped in your group is a dead Illidan if your team is good at focus firing, that is why. There team did not have three stuns, only 2. And im not sure if Falstad even went his stun....if you count that. The good stuff give more heals, and Bouncing give more damage. Lili might not be the best damage dealer...or the best healer but what is she good at? The best at doing both of those things at the same time. No one is better than her at that.

If you all focus your damage on Illidan 1 second of extra blind isn't going to make the difference between him surviving or not.

Their team did have 3 stuns. Falstad in competitive ALWAYS go hammer stun. For a while some were going for the trait talent, but they were in the minority and nowadays they always go stun and they did so in that game as well (not that it mattered because they got bodied so hard the game was already over when AA hit 16). Kharazim and Tyrande can also deal damage and heal at the same time, and they're both better than Li Li. Again, it doesn't matter if having a bit of extra heal or damage is nice or not. When your opponents run 3 stuns you go for Shake It Off at that level of play. It's for the same reason that pretty much everyone goes Cleanse unless they play Brightwing (because BW can't give up the shield talent) at that level of play. In lower level play Cleanse is less important because people don't follow up on CC as well anyway and people tend to be much worse at dodging damage so the value of heal increasing talents increases.

Lili does have a low skill cap, but she also has a very large skill wall that people do not seem to notice. And the heroes you speak up, do not get better because they are missing a high skill cap, but because other heroes get nerfed and the hero that didn't replaces that hero. This is hugely shown in the past with Warriors. But people don't even attempt to play her because of things like this, they misjudge what she is able to do and because they don't play her that much they are not as experienced with her as other heroes.

Not true. Sonya for example was regarded as really bad for a long time, and there wasn't really any nerf to other melee heroes prior to people figuring her out and her turning out to be actually pretty crazy.

And how does Li Li have a high skill wall? What is that even, I just assume you meant skill floor. All her abilities are auto aimed. Literally the only thing you have influence over is your positioning. That might make her a harder hero to play sometimes when you just want to heal target X, where other heroes can just press their heal spell on it but Li Li has to walk near prior to it, but other than that there's really nothing skill related to playing Li Li. Positioning is something you need on all heroes across the board anyway, so it's not even something you learn exclusively for Li Li.

Again, the game has been out officially for nearly a year now and so far Li Li in competitive has been a failure 90% of the time. We've had content droughts in HotS where we had to wait 6 weeks between Sylvanas and Kael, and there's been more instances of stale meta where pro's had plenty of time to practice with Li Li. Trust me, they probably did, but time and time again they just come to the conclusion that she sucks. The only time she was good was when her serpent build was bugged.

[Sorissa]

QM matchmaking is utterly and completely broken. I have lost 8 out of 11 games when playing Greymane today. I'm getting matches where the enemy keeps destroying my team and it is so one sided that it is not fun at all. Last game I had 2 kills done by our team against 22 for the enemy. How is this acceptable matchmaking? How is this supposed to be fun when you get broken comps and players who either AFK, DC, or throw the game when we have a chance to turn it around and win?

Unranked draft is a simple must if you want to have any fun outside of Hero League.There is no other way to fix the completely nonsensical, broken, and unfun game mode that is QM.

its so much fun when it matches something like 2 healers vs. your no burst, tassadar comp.

like your only option is to hope the enemy team is REALLY stupid, otherwise you just lost at the loading screen. sheesh.

[Zelendria]

A night where I won more than I lost... After tanking 10 ranks in two weeks it's a welcome change

[Ryme]

Every god damn time I'm first pick we dont get a healer, SAY SOMETHING IN DRAFT PLEASE!

[apepi]

Every god damn time I'm first pick we dont get a healer, SAY SOMETHING IN DRAFT PLEASE!

I just first pick Lili pretty much no matter what.

[Muis]

Every god damn time I'm first pick we dont get a healer, SAY SOMETHING IN DRAFT PLEASE!

If my team doesn't respond , or atleast last pick, if they can go supp and still have a banned prepick , then I just pick a supp myself, just to be 100%.

Also, we had some awesome games tonight. During Cursed Hollow we were 2 man down yet our ETC/Fal/TLV manage to steal the boss from enemy team on our side. After giving them another curse too, we go for their boss, they try to invade (and kinda, try to return the favour so to speak) - that however turned into a teamwipe for them and us ending the game

[Ryme]

I wish I understood how to play KT, I actually think I might be the worst KT player in the world. I'm always last damage, I just don't get how he works.

[Nerraw]

I wish I understood how to play KT, I actually think I might be the worst KT player in the world. I'm always last damage, I just don't get how he works.

Try this: http://www.heroesnexus.com/talent-ca...TdRAAsYgRRRyAA (heroic is personal preference)

When you engage, go D-E-Q-W. You can burst a Johanna down to 60% in one go. With this build you don't need to be top damage. Just make sure you hit the Gravity Lapse.

[Frozen Death Knight]

I had an amazing 41 minute game as Greymane on Tomb of the Spider Queen. Heck, my team was hard countered by having Vikings against the enemy Li-Ming, but we won after an epic last fight.

[Ryme]

Try this: http://www.heroesnexus.com/talent-ca...TdRAAsYgRRRyAA (heroic is personal preference)

When you engage, go D-E-Q-W. You can burst a Johanna down to 60% in one go. With this build you don't need to be top damage. Just make sure you hit the Gravity Lapse.

Thanks buddy, I'll give it a go.

[Deleted]

Try this: http://www.heroesnexus.com/talent-ca...TdRAAsYgRRRyAA (heroic is personal preference)

When you engage, go D-E-Q-W. You can burst a Johanna down to 60% in one go. With this build you don't need to be top damage. Just make sure you hit the Gravity Lapse.

That's a really safe build as far as KT goes. What worked for me, while new to the hero and learning, was using Gravity Lapse only when I was sure it was a 1 on 1 situation and otherwise keeping it as a get-out-of-jail card rather than initiating with it. I play against much lower MMR opponents than you, but even playing safe usually gets me to either top hero damage or very close to it.

[Well]

Played a very high skill cap and MRR match after a long time. It's so refreshing to tryhard sometimes and everyone on both teams keep doing their jobs with full out teamfights that are worth spectating with popcorn.