WoD Fire Mage Game-Play (or lack there-of)

[Polarthief]

Just because of DF changing, it doesn't take away the shatter gameplay.
You still have finger of frost and if speced 2 ice novas, you could spec into RoF or Iceward (which now has 3 charges) you will have enough shatter opportunities left.

DF was just one tool out of the toolbox and it is still there.

In PvE: You will never get shatter gameplay unless you're soloing (and as Didactic said, FoF/BF is not Shatter gameplay).
In PvP: You probably won't use a freeze for shatter since you'll either be freezing non-focus targets or the focus target to either slow or stun him for a sec, but it'll break almost immediately anyways.

So no, shatter gameplay is gone with DF.

[Deztru]

You should ask the title to be changed to somewhat more PvP oriented.

Only some/none of these affect PvE at all.

[TheWorkingTitle]

You will have hard time kiting as fire? Did u read about the scorch WoD perk? For PvP you will still have scorch for the totems and the spell reflects. Actualy if you have seen fire pvp 2p you will know that you will want to spam scorch in WoD PvP for both the perk and the 2p proc.

Yes I have read the scorch perks. A spell that needs to be casted is way worse than an instant when having to deal with a totem or spell reflect. Especially when you're..you know..a fire mage and casting that fire spell could potentially have you locked out of fire spells due to being silenced.

You will not have Cone of Cold? Are you for real? CoC will be replaced by Dragon breath (or w/e was the name i dont think i recall right) with the almost the same mechanic - frontal cone of damage that incapacitate all targets affected. From my PoV that's pretty much the same benefit.

Yes I'm for real. The only similarity of Dragon's Breath to Cone of Cold is that it's a conal AoE. The HUGE difference, is one is a disorient while the other is a slow. I'm not content having one when I've had both at my disposal. Now, if there was a fire version of Cone of Cold (that does fire damage and slows) then I'd have not said a word about it.

About the healing - as people said you are not a healer. Thats why there was a nerf to the amount Evocation is healing and how its done (at the end of the cast), so if u want to heal with it you have to say and channel full duration. Don't explain me that you stay for 2 seconds when kiting huge pack of adds that what to rapekill you. Actualy in WoD you will have better mechanics to heal yourself, or more accurate said - to avoid damage, than it is now. And thats what blizzard said - "we want mages to be a class that can avoid damage, not heal throw it" i think the quote was.

By that logic, no pure dps class should have ANY healing spells..because..ya know..they're not healers either. That's a crock IMHO. Additionally, while potion of luck farming mass mob packs I have frost nova'd or dragon's breath'd them, ran a bit away, got off a heal (through evocation), and then resumed kiting. WoW has always been about maximizing what you can do within any frame of time. I also would have much more trouble solo'ing Heroic 25m Lich King or Heroic Freya in Ulduar without Evocation, to name a couple encounters where it is vital for me.

I dont see problem with Mirror image either. Here is why - if a mage want to solo something he will use MI no matter what. No sane soloer will use the other 2 tallents for the things he will do. No one.

You don't see a problem of having to spec into a spell that we've had baseline regardless of spec since Wrath of the Lich King? How is that interesting or new gameplay, by taking something away, and making us spec back into it if we merely want to keep it (and effectively screwing us over from ever having the other 2 talents?)

[Polarthief]

What ^ said. All 4 points are spot on problems, though I feel like some of these don't really pertain to Fire.

[TheWorkingTitle]

I agree, I can't play fire mage in wod beta at all at the moment, it just feels, empty, you went from having a tool for all occasions to close to nothing.

Granted fire mage isn't the only one who has this problem at the moment, there's a lot of specs whene I play em I get the "That's really it?!'" feeling.

I know I know, pruning needed to be done, but certain specs/classes feel perfectly fine after the pruning, while others feel like a lvl 12 character.
But beta's beta.

It really does feel like a lower level character in comparison to MoP's current iteration. Utility is gutted. Talents are underwhelming in the level 75 and 90 tier as well. Losing our only castable DoT just for a lesser (imho) version of Blastwave that can't be placed where the Mage wants unlike its previous iterations? What is that?

And then having to talent back INTO mirror image if you just want to have a similiar gameplay to previous Mage expacs while losing out on a constant Arcane Power that fluctuates up and down in combat or a 15% spell damage increase while standing inside of the rune of power? Something isn't adding up to me.

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they should just make 3 versions for all the spells. i like that idea with meteor/arcane orb/comet

I totally agree. If they are to take Cone of Cold away from Arcane and Fire Mages, why not give us a Cone of Fire/Arcanum (yes that's a horrible name idea). I don't want to lose utility just for the sake of "ability pruning" when they could be way more creative and give us 3 different versions for all spells (which probably should have been what each spec had from the beginning.)

Great idea Not Againnn

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Concernin blastwave:

I don't understand where the issue is with Blastwave being a skill that works on the enemy, but as far as I remember (have to check that) if you use blastwave on yourself, it will work like a nova.

However, Blastwave is a massive damage skill. It does more damage than a fully casted fireball, instant.
Im checking right now and report back.

The issue (atleast I and some others are having) is that Blastwave was a placeable spell akin to Ring of Frost, Frost's Pet Freeze, Flamestrike, and Blizzard. You're at a detriment when you have to be in Line of Sight to use your Blastwave on a target, rather than placing it near the edge and having it clip around a side.

If I could place Blastwave where I want than I'd have basically no problem with losing Frost Nova for it.

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You should ask the title to be changed to somewhat more PvP oriented.

Only some/none of these affect PvE at all.

The only one that has next to nothing to do with PvE that I listed was the Ice Lance part about totems and spell reflect (and if I had to devil's advocate I use ice lance for certain mechanics like Lich King's frost orbs, killing frost vulnerable dragonoids in BWL etc etc). Everything else I encounter quite often, if not every day playing, while doing solo activities or PvE.

[The Kao]

Lots of valid concerns, actually. Guess I'll finally have to seriously try other specs for raiding after all these years.

You should really try and carry this to Blizzard since, you know, it's kind of a wasted effort to discuss it here, where you can't be sure even one person that matters listens.

[TheWorkingTitle]

Lots of valid concerns, actually. Guess I'll finally have to seriously try other specs for raiding after all these years.

You should really try and carry this to Blizzard since, you know, it's kind of a wasted effort to discuss it here, where you can't be sure even one person that matters listens.

Hey The Kao, thanks for reading. You have any other concerns that I could appendage and add to my original post?

I don't have a twitter or facebook or anything like that so I don't really have a way of sending this along to a developers line of communication. I posted this on the WoW forums but it doesn't seem to be gaining any traction what-so-ever. Only sub-forum I didn't post in was the WoD Beta Class Forum..guess I should try that as well.


Edit:
Just tried to post this on the WoW Beta Class Forums and my post is too long. Gonna open up Word and get it ready to be copy pasted into 2 consecutive posts.

Edit 2:
Just posted this on the World of Warcraft WoD Beta Class Forum discussion page. Here's to hoping it gets some traction and somebody from Blizzard sees it..

[Not Againnn]

came up with some easy ideas to give mages some more flavor since fire/arcane homies lost ice lance, cone of cold and other abilities.

Heat Wave/Anomaly/Cone of Cold

Heat Wave slows and applies a SMALL dot instead of up front damage, cone of cold slows a shit ton and does normal damage, and anomaly knocks back with damage.

Sear/Disintegrate/Ice Lance

Sear puts a 2 second burn up instead of normal "ice lance" damage, disintegrate has a chance to score an arcane charge (plus it would be badass to shoot lasers around) and then you got ice lance and the normal interaction with hitting frozen targets

[mrgreenthump]

You should ask the title to be changed to somewhat more PvP oriented.

Only some/none of these affect PvE at all.

While you are right, Fire PvE is even worse off

[Danaos]

PvE is more than just raiding, just because you can't shatter a raidboss or use DF as fire mage, doesn't mean you can't miss it.
I will, and CoC, too. ;(

[Polarthief]

PvE is more than just raiding

It is? Once you hit max level, what else is PvE considered? Dungeons/CMs I guess (though those are the same thing), but the only real thing is raiding (or doing seriously competitive world best times on CM)

[Fennixx]

Blastwave should get a glyph (minor perhaps) to let us use target reticle. I for one like this new version, especially for PvE.

Pruning looks like shit on some classes, as someone said before. Fire is not alone in this regard...

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It is? Once you hit max level, what else is PvE considered? Dungeons/CMs I guess (though those are the same thing), but the only real thing is raiding (or doing seriously competitive world best times on CM)

Some adds on raid encounters are stunnable by DF (lol were stunnable), slowable, rootable. Yes we may miss some utility spells.

[Binko]

Great write-up OP! Really shows how the crazy level of ability pruning affects a class that I don't play.

You are absolutely right that a Mage should be able to use spells from all the branches. Specializing in fire does not mean you only cast fire spells any more than a chef specializing in French cuisine means he could ONLY cook French food.

I'm baffled by the players who defend the dumbing down and radical simplifying of the game. I honestly think that the developers of WoW hate this ability prune as much as we do. But my guess is that the word came down from on high and they are forced to toe the party line and put the best face on it.

[Polarthief]

Blastwave should get a glyph (minor perhaps) to let us use target reticle. I for one like this new version, especially for PvE.

They don't normally make glyphs for talents, and they definitely won't just for BW; they MIGHT for all 3 novas though (one glyph that changes all 3)

Some adds on raid encounters are stunnable by DF (lol were stunnable), slowable, rootable. Yes we may miss some utility spells.

Mobs that you need to kill asap will be smacked by other players and your freeze won't last long enough for you to get another cast off, especially if your freeze is also on the GCD. Mobs you don't need to kill but do need to CC... well, why would Shatter matter in the slightest here?

[Not Againnn]

They don't normally make glyphs for talents, and they definitely won't just for BW; they MIGHT for all 3 novas though (one glyph that changes all 3)



Mobs that you need to kill asap will be smacked by other players and your freeze won't last long enough for you to get another cast off, especially if your freeze is also on the GCD. Mobs you don't need to kill but do need to CC... well, why would Shatter matter in the slightest here?

shatter was key to fire and arcane when soloing, at least for me. nova then a 4 stack barrage is giant damage to like 5 guys. no longer possible.

and yes, i used to freeze shit during heroic lei shin progression. it has(had) a place. its free crits.

[Polarthief]

shatter was key to fire and arcane when soloing, at least for me. nova then a 4 stack barrage is giant damage to like 5 guys. no longer possible.

and yes, i used to freeze shit during heroic lei shin progression. it has(had) a place. its free crits.

There are plenty of ways to solo large packs of mobs as a mage even without Shatter. Also, they do not balance this game around doing solo stuff, nor dungeons/heroics, LFR/Flex, non-rated BGs, and 2v2 PvP.

One fight in MoP, and typically only if you used FJ (since Nova/Ring wouldn't be too effective due to delays)

[Not Againnn]

There are plenty of ways to solo large packs of mobs as a mage even without Shatter. Also, they do not balance this game around doing solo stuff, nor dungeons/heroics, LFR/Flex, non-rated BGs, and 2v2 PvP.

One fight in MoP, and typically only if you used FJ (since Nova/Ring wouldn't be too effective due to delays)

any fight with freezable adds. esp if you took ice ward and made use of nova/df. it was decent. it had a place. its sad to see it go away again. i remember when i played my mage in vanilla and wish i had shatter as a fire mage. after having it for a while its sad to see it go.

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anyways, polar, youre wrong. the class needs to be playable on a solo level as well as a group level. the removal of a majority of cc for the other 2 specs guts the class of a lot. a fire mage has ALWAYS had cone of cold. it had a place for them. arcane NEEDS it as well. i dont understand why you think less is more in this case, because it isnt. have you played beta fire mage? its clunky as fuck. arcane is the same way without these spells.

[ldev]

FYI, We were only able to heal using Evocation since Cataclysm. Before that, we didn't have a heal either.

I've lived without it, and I'm sure I can live without it again. Heck, I don't even glyph it these days. *shrug*

That's why discussing classes is useless on public forums - most are fucking retards and don't know shit. Glyph of Evo was added in wotlk, this prime idiot specimen couldn't do it in wotlk and cata.

just wtf

Infracted. Please be polite when discussing.

[Polarthief]

any fight with freezable adds. esp if you took ice ward and made use of nova/df. it was decent. it had a place. its sad to see it go away again.

Again, if you need to CC something, you're not going to hit it. If you need to kill the mobs, your allies will break your freezes.

anyways, polar, youre wrong. the class needs to be playable on a solo level as well as a group level.

I never disagreed with this point, I was just saying "Blizzard doesn't tune classes for solo play", just like they don't for 2v2, duels, etc.

the removal of a majority of cc for the other 2 specs guts the class of a lot. a fire mage has ALWAYS had cone of cold. it had a place for them. arcane NEEDS it as well. i dont understand why you think less is more in this case, because it isnt.

Don't put words into my mouth. I agree that it's stupid to remove CoC (especially CoC) and other spells. When did I ever disagree with this? I thought we were talking about Shatter which didn't really add much outside of soloing and using Deep Freeze (which has been ruined for Frost too, btw)

have you played beta fire mage? its clunky as fuck. arcane is the same way without these spells.

I have not because I'm not in beta, and I agree that Fire is pretty clunky as fuck, but I don't think shatter is the reason because you never were shattering in raids anyways. PvP though, that's a completely different story (and again, Shatter is pretty much gone anyways since you're not going to hit CC targets and your freezes will instantly break from your allies hitting a target).

[Not Againnn]

if you havent played beta at all why are you in a wod thread >_> (jk)

fire is so lame without shatter now. its extremely clunky and soloing is pretty fucking hard as fuck compared to frost. like it isnt worth it dude. i promise.

same for arcane. its like to the point of why. feels like vanilla again, except not.

and i apologize for not thoroughly reading your post. i thought u were saying that the loss of cc was a nonissue.

pretty much the only two spells we need are cone of cold and ice lance. the removal of those 2 spells makes trying to play the other 2 specs really hard. cone of cold has been baseline for a long time, and it's snare was the only reason anybody would use it if they werent frost, so like why take it away? name it heat wave for fire and mass slow for arcane. easy.

ice lance is useful as fuck for both specs. teeny weeny damage for a global. all specs need that for arena