[7.3] Azortharion's Hunter Guides

[Effinhunter]

Anyone know?

My dps has stayed the same. That's why I didn't respond earlier.

Did you just import your information into the GUI and run again? Did you import a .simc file that was using armory=zone,server,char? There are default action lists and priorities that can be applied here. Did you check talents to see if they're same? Did you use talents=0002333 for BM? Was this BM? Too many unknowns to give you a good answer to help you debug. I'm not seeing a 2k drop in latest Simcraft for any of the hunter profiles I maintain.

[Kwaai]

Should I attach /stopcasting to Kill Command and Kill Shot?

Seems like I'm often casting KC just a bit too late because of Cobra Shot.

Doing nothing is horrible and goes agains the golden rules of dps.
Interrupting a cast means you were doing nothing for that cast.
Interrupting a cast is horrible.
QED

A stopcasting will also prevent you from ``queueing'' up a KC while a Cobra is finishing, so you'd be forced to wait until the casts end to KC, which means you lose time due to latency. This means before every KC you're basically standing there doing nothing, which is horrible. The way it works without stopcasting is you can press KC when the Cobra has <.5 sec (there's some magic number iirc) and it'll go off as soon as the cast ends (assuming the GCD is over as well). You can solve the whole issue by having 70 focus when there's <1 sec on KC CD, so you can AS to fill that gap rather than be forced to Cobra and feel shitty about life.

[Effinhunter]

its fine, here is last weeks where i played mm though. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e-done&phase=3

We haven't gotten to Blackhand just yet (just started on M Blast Furnace), but it's been really interesting to look at Limit's logs (BTW, special thanks to you guys for sharing them). Looking at the DPS differences and bursting between the 3 specs with you and Dyveriate.

P3 on April 1, 2015: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e-done&phase=3
P3 on April 7, 2015: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ummary&phase=3
P3 on April 14, 2015: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ummary&phase=3

First, the obvious. BM shined well on April 1st and April 7th. Dyveriate's logs on the 14th were a bit underwhelming because he did not have FF during first minute of the P3 burn and essentially no major buffs or CDs going during first 15s of the Time Warp. But the 7th as BM, had him at 65k dps during P3. The 14th as BM, has him at 53k dps during P3. The April 1st logs show what happens when you pair TW/lust with Stampede, and that's why you see both Dyv and KTB at 70k-72k in the phase.

Kisstehbaby played SV on the 7th and MM on the 14th. In both cases, he uses Stampede at the top of the lust/time warp, which is an optimal usage of the CD. Sniper Training uptime on the 14th was pretty good, considering the hectic nature of P3 with the movement to new locations at 86.56%, and only 1 proc of the legendary ring. SV logs had good Heavy Shot uptime at 94%, only 30% uptime for TotH, and 2 procs of the ring.

The MM performance clocked in at 59k versus the SV performance of 52k. So, if you're only considering P3 burn as the choke on killing this boss right now, it would seem that BM > MM > SV. Looking at the whole fight, it doesn't look like your guild has you on SV balcony duty (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e=18&by=target). Only about 3k dps was added via SrS on the Reinforced Siege (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...=18&target=245), which means that you're obviously not padding like some other parses and SV is one of those specs that can definitely pad like crazy on P2.

P2 seems to be about the same between SV and BM (if you factor out the SrS on Reinforced) and MM is noticeably lower for your parses.

P2 BM and BM (April 1): https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ummary&phase=2
P2 BM and SV (April 7): https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ummary&phase=2
P2 BM and MM (April 14): https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e-done&phase=2

If you are having trouble with the Supercharged Siege, all three specs have the same damage totals. Overall damage goes to BM and SV on priority targets, with MM a bit behind (though this may be an anecdotal difference). The major problem with MM here in this phase is that CA time is low during this phase as the main target (Blackhand) is in the middle of his health. KS opens up at 35% on him (so 5% of phase), but this just isn't enough to make up for the toolset of BM or the consistent damage of SV.

So, in summary, both intuitively and from your logs:

P3: BM > MM > SV
P2: BM >= SV > MM

So, I can definitely see KTB's perspective that SV is better than MM if your guild is having trouble with P2 more than P3. But I think we can all agree that BM is ahead of everything on this particular fight. Too many CDs for important burn phases, regardless of the importance of RNG.

[Niix]

Every time you post you just seem to want to point out that you do good dps and that you are a top player.
But in reality you are just a heroic raider that knows nothing.

That was really uncalled for.

[Kwaai]

That was really uncalled for.

It certainly was rude and uncalled for, but linking heroic logs when people are talking about mythic isn't particularly relevant. It's totally fine to have not seen the fight on mythic, but if that's the case you should go look at mythic logs and dissect them like Effin did.

[Niix]

I agree it wasn't relevant, but my comment was more aimed at his response than Xerinn's.

[Azortharion]

Looking at WarcraftLogs statistics when comparing specs is useless, especially when doing just single reports. Too few people (the kind of good people that make a real difference in statistics) play anything but BM and if they did the other specs would have a much stronger showing.

Limit has good players playing all specs (well at least with KTB being tri-spec hero) but the sample size is still way too small to determine anything, especially because some will be cheesing more on Siegemakers than others (or not necessarily cheesing, just doing damage). I personally ignore them because I am scared of shit of them dying too soon.

See: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e=2&target=225 (phase 2 that Effin dissected but Blackhand damage only), a 2 million dmg spread becomes like 700k.

Also Dyv lost 3 KC's which is 150k damage (assuming nothing else was gained), so not a big deal but KTB lost 3 Chimaeras which is like twice this damage lost, further closing the gap.

Realize before I continue that I am not speaking for MM in any way here on this fight, just pointing out the flaw in using single logs to try and determine it to begin with.

I understand you look at separate weeks to try and minimize RNG impact but anyone who's played World of Warcraft can attest to results still swinging wildly across 3 weeks, especially when trying to compare things that are close already.

All of that said the subject hardly requires this much in-depth analysis (not that it isn't welcome, but in the context of just giving advice on what spec to go for the answer has always been BM unanimously) because it's no worse than the other specs at phase 2 and better in p3 and perhaps p1 (Dyrlægen can't beat me there and he's supposed to be rank 1 MM so that's all I am basing the p1 part on).

Also, if you're a mortar-bitch, 40% of your damage or so stays on the boss regardless. It's a good life.

KTB's argument lies more in the fact that MM/SV will do "fine" in the context of progression raiding today, which is objectively true from the black-white standpoint of "has the boss been killed with this", the answer to which is yes. Nothing at all supports going MM/SV in an optimal Blackhand situation, though.

[galaxyquest]

Also, if you're a mortar-bitch, 40% of your damage or so stays on the boss regardless. It's a good life.

What's a mortar bitch?

[Kwaai]

Quick question about MM. I feel like there are quite a few times when I struggle to make use of all of my Thrill procs. Typically this happens after I do a AiS>CS and get down to near 0 focus and I'll get a Thrill proc. Should I try as hard as possible to use all of these (even if it means pushing a GT off a few seconds), or should I basically just ignore them and hope it works out? The guide doesn't say anything about it in the rotation section (I assume this is an oversight, if CS/GT/Barrage have a while before they're up and a Thrill proc is about to expire, it can't be the case that casting Steady and losing the proc is better than casting Aimed if it won't delay a CS/GT/Barrage).

[Azortharion]

One of the people who have to leave ranged when the Siegemakers are about to reach 100 energy in order to "bait" the Mortar blast (which leaves fire) to someplace far away and avoid it spreading like wildfire all over the place where your ranged camp stays. TL;DR leave range for like 5-10 seconds every 30 seconds or so.

[Effinhunter]

See: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...e=2&target=225 (phase 2 that Effin dissected but Blackhand damage only), a 2 million dmg spread becomes like 700k.

Also Dyv lost 3 KC's which is 150k damage (assuming nothing else was gained), so not a big deal but KTB lost 3 Chimaeras which is like twice this damage lost, further closing the gap.

Yeah, it's interesting though looking at the damage differences despite similar activity times on each target. The siege engine damage is damn near identical. The Blackhand damage is different, and this makes sense given that MM's strongest situations (top 20% health and bottom 35% health) are not really present in this phase (P2), except for siege engines (which KTB does the same amount of damage as Dyv with similar activity times on target). The CS losses appear to be due to a deterrence at 2:01 and then just a bit of slippage, and Dyv's KC slip also happens here, but it's hardly a huge deal. And it seems like 3 is sort of a magic number when it comes to top 50 parsers in P2.

For instance, on your best overall BM parse, you also appear to have missed 3 (15:35 - 1:50 = 335 - 110 = 225 / 6 = 37.5 optimal, while there were 34 KCs).
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...urce=2&phase=2

Also, if I include Dyveriate's KCs on non-Blackhand targets, I appear to get 35 for that parse, so it seems like it's 2 missed for that parse (which was his worst parse) as one of them was on an engine.

On his April 1st parse of P2, which was his better parse, he hit 36 out of 37 KCs (5:29 - 1:44 = 329 - 104 = 225 / 6 = 37.5 optimal), so he's definitely worth looking at (imo).
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...se=2&source=18

Anyway, the Limit logs were fun to look through and analyze because there are two hunters there who are really pushing hard on each spec and parsing well. I'm not too concerned if anyone thinks the logs are too anecdotal to be useful to look at.

[Azortharion]

I am not saying they are not skilled enough to be looked at, they could play perfectly 24/7 but the argument of them being anecdotes still apply even if you cross out skill variance.

When the Siege Engine damage is identical, that implies higher activity from the BM hunter seeing as all it takes for an MM hunter to switch targets is, well, doing it. And when it comes to raw super-short DPS, an MM hunter channeling an Aimed and Chimaera into the Siegemaker is gonna do damage to the Siegemaker which would probably take BM like twice the time to match.

After another BM reset or two I might go SV or MM myself for a week and have a go. It will still be anecdotal and somewhat useless to look at when getting into the nitty-gritty but I might share thoughts on that (on stream, too) as I go along but I seriously doubt it'll be any different stuff than what I am already advicing having not played the specs much myself except for the first couple weeks of progress (SV) where SV play was pretty different altogether.

[Xerinn]

i didnt even know you guys were talking about mythic blackhand. all i saw was the comment above starting with "dont play survival" which was in reply to the post at top of the page which has nothing about mythic in it either. i can see mythic on the other page which i must of replied half way through my bender seems it was a kanye west reference i dont even remember posting lol.
not one of my posts did i even mention blackhand hence why i posted the heroic boss logs lol
sorry if you got worked up over it.. i didnt take any offence to anything said

[Deleted]

Limit, the Blood Legion we needed but never deserved.

[galaxyquest]

If I'm at a medium amount of focus, KC comes off cooldown (or is about to come off cooldown) and BM just came off cooldown .. is it worth it to charge up all my focus and then use KC or use KC and then charge up my focus.

This almost occurs occurs when the 2 piece bonus procs, and I'm never positive on how to react. Typically I use KC and then recharge. If I decided to recharge fully and then use KC I'd have KC off cooldown for about an extra 2-4 seconds.

[Tehterokkar]

If I'm at a medium amount of focus, KC comes off cooldown (or is about to come off cooldown) and BM just came off cooldown .. is it worth it to charge up all my focus and then use KC or use KC and then charge up my focus.

This almost occurs occurs when the 2 piece bonus procs, and I'm never positive on how to react. Typically I use KC and then recharge. If I decided to recharge fully and then use KC I'd have KC off cooldown for about an extra 2-4 seconds.

I personally delay KC always a few seconds because you always risk a BW reset. Not sure about the official simulations though.

Though this only applies for T17 2pc, without it I will do KC first(since it's more likely for you to miss a KC than BW in a fight).

[WarBringerPT]

If by medium amount of focus you mean 60s, I would delay it, going into BW and getting focus starved is worse than delaying KC for a few secs.

[waat]

I personally delay KC always a few seconds because you always risk a BW reset. Not sure about the official simulations though.

Though this only applies for T17 2pc, without it I will do KC first(since it's more likely for you to miss a KC than BW in a fight).

I do this too. I never cast BW without KC (well almost never, if AOE burst is starting I'll mash my KC/BW modifier macro even if KC is on cooldown just to get BW.

If BW if off cd and KC is coming off cd but I'm low on focus I let loose a cobra shot or two before busting KC/BW

[Lunaboreal]

Azerothian, I've spent several weeks compiling pet buff information. WoD brought a complete reshuffling of pet buffs, BM exotics providing 2, and MM/SV gaining access to all.

I did this because providing buffs for random dungeons was completely fubared, and at the time Petopia did not have their pet database updated. Also, the pet flowchart is now gone.

I posted the info on the petopia forums, but it is clear they are not interested:
"the petopia site focuses on the PETS and not on the hunters (or how to play them), the information as you have provided it is not relevant to the main site."

Would you be interested in creating a section on summonstone hunters to answer this question that appears regularly on forums? A database doesn't offer a straightforward answer of what pets/buffs need to be provided. What I did was list the buffs and noted what pets have them, featured the 2-buff exotics, and also what 5 on-call pets will cover the most buffs a hunter will come across in random dungeons.

[Jaydenkor]

Azerothian, I've spent several weeks compiling pet buff information. WoD brought a complete reshuffling of pet buffs, BM exotics providing 2, and MM/SV gaining access to all.

I did this because providing buffs for random dungeons was completely fubared, and at the time Petopia did not have their pet database updated. Also, the pet flowchart is now gone.

I posted the info on the petopia forums, but it is clear they are not interested:
"the petopia site focuses on the PETS and not on the hunters (or how to play them), the information as you have provided it is not relevant to the main site."

Would you be interested in creating a section on summonstone hunters to answer this question that appears regularly on forums? A database doesn't offer a straightforward answer of what pets/buffs need to be provided. What I did was list the buffs and noted what pets have them, featured the 2-buff exotics, and also what 5 on-call pets will cover the most buffs a hunter will come across in random dungeons.

^ please do this. I've been looking for a new flowchart.