Gamergate - OP updated 27 October

[Sting]

It's just computer games... lol

It's not like she was screwing around to become president, or something that actually matters.

Do you know how much money goes around in the industry? Hint, it fucking matters.

[Surfd]

This is not an important debate, this is a debate some people want to have if you want to call it that, but even if you define it as a debate it is not important, and If Reddit and 4chan of all places removed it, I am pretty sure MMO-C should too, based on the arguments being made, this has nothing to do with gaming, this has nothing to do with the political and social concerns as they relate to video games, this is more about trying to leverage point form of salacious slut shamming, which in and of itself, kind of testifies to the validity that there is indeed a bias, and bigotry, accounted for in gaming development.

You are somewhat correct. The debate itself is rather non important, since quite literally none of the people involved in it actually matter. A bunch of no-name game industry people with over-exaggerated opinions of their own self importance slinging around their dirty laundry, against the backdrop of the pretty much completely inbred clusterfuck that is "games journalism" is not newsworthy.

What should be somewhat newsworthy however (if allegations are true) is the accusation that this chick has used her so called "personal life" interactions to directly and indirectly screw over other people and their business ventures in the name of self profit. If the whole case of Zoe deliberately getting the TFYC Rebel Game Jam shot down simply so she could turn around and pimp out her own vapourware game jam sans competition is actually true, she should be looking at some rather serious legal ramification. Not to mention the moral shitkicking she deserves for attacking a pro women's Game Event in the name of her own personal brand of "feminism".

Finally, however, I really have to ask:
Is it actually objectionable to "slut shame" someone if it is fairly obvious that that someone is, infact, a huge slut and has used said fact to their advantage? If they are, infact, fucking their way to the top, why is it "wrong" to point this out?

I mean, do you really get to hide behind the shield of "but that's mysogonystic, bigoted and biased. You shouldnt be saying mean things about me", all the while doing everything you have actually been accused of doing?

How bad do your actions have to become before the shield no longer protects you? Seems like a lot of people fall on the side of "your actions can never be bad enough", which is just rather sad.

And yes, "slut shamin" or similar behaviour without proof is pretty obviously wrong, but the evidence here is pretty damning, and at some point, you just have to sleep in the bed you have made.

[Deleted]

Kotaku hasn't had a good reputation with me in forever lol. Slim ball of a site

Sure, thats your opinion, I never visit the site either for my own reasons.
But they arent relevant here, unless you have some damning evidence of their journalistic integrity, our opinions on the site has no relevant place in this discussion.

[Pann]

Hyperbole aside is it really such a stretch to believe that a particularly manipulative individual with hundreds of rabid followers is perfectly capable of pressuring numerous sites into censoring anything and everything related to the drama that she has caused? That's not to suggest that people should be wishing awful things to happen to her but excessive censorship can be a pretty bad thing when it greatly limits the ability for people to discuss a particularly nasty issue.

Furthermore if the gaming journalism industry is going to improve then this sort of thing needs to be discussed and exposed before anything actually changes.

Yeah you're right some internet nobody and her hundreds of rabid followers are capable of doing what celebrities with all their expense lawyers and advisers are not. I've seen websites, including this one, allow posts that ignore court orders about divulging details of court cases. But she was somehow able to stop all this where the law has failed in the past? How did she manage this?

Big companies have being buying reviews for as long as there have been reviews so why is some women that no-one has really heard of, who created a game that no-one has really heard of sleeping with someone that reviews games such a big issue?

The simple fact is that the internet allows people to quickly access information from multiple sources sites that offer poor or biased reviews will quickly be found out and they will suffer from people avoiding them thus cutting their revenue. Having a witch hunt against some women will do nothing to improve the problems with gaming journalism.

[Lagmonster]

What, you don't like them compiling/altering other peoples news on their site to look original? LOL ^_^

Its the height of journalistic excellence *thumbs up*

- - - Updated - - -

Sure, thats your opinion, I never visit the site either for my own reasons.
But they arent relevant here, unless you have some damning evidence of their journalistic integrity, our opinions on the site has no relevant place in this discussion.

Did you even bother reading what I quoted?


That's what I thought *hint its your own post talking about K's reputation at the end*

Also, my point was they don't seem to give a damn about their reputation as is. As most the stories are nothing but click bait.

[Pann]

It isn't just spurned ex. It's chat logs provided by the spurned ex. It's GF of one of the people who Zoe cheated with. It's the organization that arranged charity events to promote women in gaming that Zoe made crash and burn (and after which took money for herself), it's the posts she made in Wizardchan ridiculing the depressed people there and that's just the tip.

And what the fuck has that got to do with you?

If she took money from a charity event for herself then this is a real life crime which I suggest that the charity leave it to the real life police to deal with and not some angry people on the internet.

Again if she openly mocked those with depression this may well fall in to the territory of an actual crime.

[pocky_rin]

Finally, however, I really have to ask:
Is it actually objectionable to "slut shame" someone if it is fairly obvious that that someone is, infact, a huge slut and has used said fact to their advantage? If they are, infact, fucking their way to the top, why is it "wrong" to point this out?

I mean, do you really get to hide behind the shield of "but that's mysogonystic, bigoted and biased. You shouldnt be saying mean things about me", all the while doing everything you have actually been accused of doing?

How bad do your actions have to become before the shield no longer protects you? Seems like a lot of people fall on the side of "your actions can never be bad enough", which is just rather sad.

And yes, "slut shamin" or similar behaviour without proof is pretty obviously wrong, but the evidence here is pretty damning, and at some point, you just have to sleep in the bed you have made.

To me "slut shaming" is more when a girl has slept with a ton of guys during her life, she gets called a slut but if it was a guy doing it he'd be a hero. Or calling a girl slutty for clothing and makeup. All of those things are wrong. But sleeping with 5 guys whilst not in an open relationship is slutty, especially if she did it for reviews. At some point you have to be able to call it how it is.

[Mormolyce]

i dont know whats more comical the fact you think nothing fishy is going on or the fact that your just blindly dismissing everything that has been presented.

I think everything about this story is fishy. You're the one buying into it.

[Tastyfish]

But she was somehow able to stop all this where the law has failed in the past? How did she manage this?

Being prepped for fallout, and having the zeal to hunt and kill.
You prob could throw out a few, "someones legal team was prepped and ready to go" and maybe you wouldn't hit a bullseye, but get close. Or, you can maybe just assume that she was ready for it, because she has had experience having to defend herself legally from the kind of shit she provokes.
It's just classic, one person crafted a situation they were prepped to deal with, going on i think there.

But then again you could also say this is creating content for her game too.

[mercutiouk]

And what the fuck has that got to do with you?

If she took money from a charity event for herself then this is a real life crime which I suggest that the charity leave it to the real life police to deal with and not some angry people on the internet.

Again if she openly mocked those with depression this may well fall in to the territory of an actual crime.

Providing commentary and an interesting counter to the last few deluded fan boys?

[Sting]

Yeah you're right some internet nobody and her hundreds of rabid followers are capable of doing what celebrities with all their expense lawyers and advisers are not. I've seen websites, including this one, allow posts that ignore court orders about divulging details of court cases. But she was somehow able to stop all this where the law has failed in the past? How did she manage this?

I can't believe I'm actually going to bother to reply here, but you have to understand that the gaming media is very different from the mainstream media. Because of the limited reach of the gaming media, it's easier to reach out to all the major players.
There's also a huge difference in that "mainstream" celebrity media like TMZ etc. thrives on drama like this, where the gaming media has very little interest in brewing up a shitstorm especially if they're linked to it in the first place.

[Graeham]

Yeah you're right some internet nobody and her hundreds of rabid followers are capable of doing what celebrities with all their expense lawyers and advisers are not. I've seen websites, including this one, allow posts that ignore court orders about divulging details of court cases. But she was somehow able to stop all this where the law has failed in the past? How did she manage this?

Big companies have being buying reviews for as long as there have been reviews so why is some women that no-one has really heard of, who created a game that no-one has really heard of sleeping with someone that reviews games such a big issue?

The simple fact is that the internet allows people to quickly access information from multiple sources sites that offer poor or biased reviews will quickly be found out and they will suffer from people avoiding them thus cutting their revenue. Having a witch hunt against some women will do nothing to improve the problems with gaming journalism.

You seem to be missing the point. It isn't that people are surprised that this sort of thing is going on. It's that they're against this sort of thing happening in the first place. It's the tip of the iceberg and has a pretty negative impact upon the industry as a whole when biased reviews are dished out. That there's all sorts of additional baggage to deal with such as the woman pretending to be a voice for equality only to then go against all of the ideals that she was being praised for supporting just makes it even worse.

[Surfd]

In order for her to fuck her way to the top, there had to be a lot of stupid guys above her.

If she managed to get people to white knight for her, then she has good PR skills.

Re: Point A - She isn't aiming very high, so the list doesnt have to be very long. Banging your boss, when your boss is a practically un heard of indie game dev isnt exactly hooking the big fish there.

Re: Point B - She is a "Gamer Gurl". She has a vagina and a victim card. Sadly, that is pretty much all she needs to generate shitstorms of epic proportions on le interwebs.

[Deleted]

Do you know how much money goes around in the industry? Hint, it fucking matters.

It doesn't matter. Trust me. She got some good reviews from some websites, that is nothing special.

She's hardly taking over Nintendo, Sony & Microsoft to fund her plan for world domination, which, you know, would actually matter.

[Punisher069]

You seem to be missing the point. It isn't that people are surprised that this sort of thing is going on. It's that they're against this sort of thing happening in the first place. It's the tip of the iceberg and has a pretty negative impact upon the industry as a whole when biased reviews are dished out. That there's all sorts of additional baggage to deal with such as the woman pretending to be a voice for equality only to then go against all of the ideals that she was being praised for supporting just makes it even worse.

just going to quote this since people are missing the point. to reiterate what the quote is saying, we all know this shit happens. People just don't like that it does.

The people that are reasonably angry don't care about who might of had sex with who, they care about that fact that "gaming journalism" shouldn't be about who you know or do or whatever. And the fact that if someone brings it up the people fiercely defending Zoe shout down anyone, reasonable or not.

[Orange Joe]

What saddens me is Adem Sessler getting involved. I truly respected the man until I seen him support Zoe. I'll never be able to look at him the same again.

[Graeham]

It doesn't matter. Trust me. She got some good reviews from some websites, that is nothing special.

She's hardly taking over Nintendo to fund her plan for world domination, which, you know, would actually matter.

That's like suggesting that someone starving on your street isn't a big deal because there's thousands of people starving in Africa. It's a silly and dismissive stance that accomplishes nothing. If you don't care about a particular issue then that's fine - nobody is forcing you to get involved.

[Mormolyce]

Finally, however, I really have to ask:
Is it actually objectionable to "slut shame" someone if it is fairly obvious that that someone is, infact, a huge slut and has used said fact to their advantage? If they are, infact, fucking their way to the top, why is it "wrong" to point this out?

A) Yes.

B) There is absolutely no evidence of her supposedly sleeping around other than a rambling blog posted by a jilted ex, which people who hate this woman (for either personal or ideological reasons) immediately ate up completely uncritically. Hint: jilted exes frequently accuse their former lovers of sleeping around and all manner of things. And now everyone is acting as if the mere fact that hundreds of idiots repeated the claim, that somehow lends it more credence.

It's transparently a sham and you should be embarrassed both by your own gullibility and your headlong rush to bring this woman's sex life (which you know nothing about) into the debate.

[Redecle]

People can't seem to grasp why the Zoegate and integrity in gaming "journalism" (lel) is important for us gamers but here I goes again (now in 8 easy steps):

1. Well known and established company makes unfinished, rushed game to push more sales during X semester.
2. Said game is likely a 6 tops, and for that reason aforementioned company bribes gaming "critics" to boost their review.
3. Rushed, unfinished game gets reviewed in major sites with millions of traffic a year, gets a score of 8+ everywhere.
4. Average Joe googles cool new games to play, lands on a video review giving said game a 8+, sees it has cool graphics, sees the 8+ score and decides to buy said game.
5. Game sells really well because the market is dominated by average Joes.
6. Well known and established company does the same thing next year/semester, because they make money and lots of it.
7. More game companies follow that example as a good business model, quality of games steadily drops.
8. The only people fucked in the end are us, the gamers, for purchasing rushed and unfinished games with first day DLCs et cetera over and over again.

This is spot on.
Perfectly describes how people believe what they read and how they base their opinion on one number that's someone else's opinion not their own.
The world seriously needs some more education on thinking yourself and people to realize to think themselves in a small matter like video games in all of this, and not just on that but in general too that's just a tiny tiny portion of the world. Why is most of the population fighting over someone else's war so to speak? Are we so oppressed? And the education is not about learning math or geography in school it's about teaching kids, future generations and even current generation about moral values, humanity, critical thinking and voicing your own opinion.

[Lagmonster]

What saddens me is Adem Sessler getting involved. I truly respected the man until I seen him support Zoe. I'll never be able to look at him the same again.

Did he really? First I've heard about it (just got up), well that's extremely disappointing.