In the end, Grommash...

[Wyrt]

Yet again, he doesn't care about the Draenei. At all. All the Iron Horde is trying to do (and failing) is to conquer Draenor.

He attacks Karabor for the same reason he attacks the Frostwolves or the Spires of Arak, conquest.

Yeah, I don't see how wanting to murder everything is any better.

[Deleted]

Yeah, I don't see how wanting to murder everything is any better.

You like to spread lies, don't you? Conquest is conquest, he doesn't want to murder everyone and their mother. Heck, he works fine and daddy with the Gorian Empire because of the trade deals between the two forces.

All he wants is to subjugate Draenor.

[Xilurm]

What would really be the difference if Garrosh didn't interrupt him? Literally no difference.

[Wyrt]

You like to spread lies, don't you? Conquest is conquest, he doesn't want to murder everyone and their mother. Heck, he works fine and daddy with the Gorian Empire because of the trade deals between the two forces.

All he wants is to subjugate Draenor.

I'm not spreading lies. He's trying to murder all of the draenei.

That's why Doomhammer gets killed. He refuses to follow orders because he doesn't want to kill so many innocents.

I'm not sure if you're in the beta or not, but the Iron Horde isn't trying to subjugate the draenei, they're trying to outright annihilate them.

[Pantelija]

I wana see KJ enslave Thrall ripping his body apart and binding his spirit to an suit of magically bound armor setting up the next expansion

[Reyzzz]

What would really be the difference if Garrosh didn't interrupt him? Literally no difference.

Owing one's life, or thinking to owe one's life is pretty big debt to be in.

[Deleted]

That's why Doomhammer gets killed. He refuses to follow orders because he doesn't want to kill so many innocents.

Doomhammer is killed because Blackhand is bat shit crazy and wants to destroy everything. Not because Grom told him to.

I'm not sure if you're in the beta or not, but the Iron Horde isn't trying to subjugate the draenei, they're trying to outright annihilate them.

I'm in the beta, yes, and there is nothing point to an Iron Horde agenda for a Draenei "Final Solution". All that happens are two failed naval invasions on the two major Draenei capitals, AFTER we destroy the Dark Portal. There is more Draenei death on the hands of the Shadow Council (because souls) then on the Iron Horde.

[Tartys]

does it even matter what happens in this timeline? it doesnt affect our timeline so it's just a big holodeck episode.

Does Not affect the past of our timeline. But will be affect the present and the future of our time line if the Iron Horde jump from portal to our Azeroth.

But, we know that will be the Burning Legion (the vision of the Prince and the reason because he help Garrosh to evade from pandaria) to invade Azeroth, that means that we will stop Grom but probably not Gul'dan (that he already drank the Mannoroth's blood)... and the nextexpansion wil be the great invasion, probably! ^^;

[Wyrt]

I'm in the beta, yes, and there is nothing point to an Iron Horde agenda for a Draenei "Final Solution". All that happens are two failed naval invasions on the two major Draenei capitals, AFTER we destroy the Dark Portal. There is more Draenei death on the hands of the Shadow Council (because souls) then on the Iron Horde.

The only 2 places where the Iron Horde takes prisoners is so they can murder them for their souls. Either to power the dark portal or to summon the dark star. Other than that the Iron Horde is taking no prisoners.

Tuurem and all the surrounding area is completely destroyed. Telaar is taken out. They planned to use the dark star in Karabor which would have wiped out the draenei there. They had the super weapon aimed at Shattrath to destroy it.

I'm not sure what beta you're playing, but every indication shows the Iron Horde is trying to wipe out the draenei. The only time they take prisoners is so that they can murder those prisoners.

The Shadow Council is really only involved in Auchindoun and then Shattrath after the Iron Horde is stopped from wiping it out. The vast majority of draenei losses are at the hands of the Iron Horde.

[Gorsameth]

What would really be the difference if Garrosh didn't interrupt him? Literally no difference.

If Grom is allowed to continue the vision he sees the Horde rise up and break their chains under Thrall and lead the new Horde to Kalimdor where they establish a home for themselves and return to their old (his current) traditions.
He needs the vision to end while Grom still believes that drinking the Demon blood will doom his race and without him seeing the redemption they earn at the end of the journey.
Like the shaman said. The sacrifice of Draenor and the years of slavery are worth it. Our current Horde is stronger(spiritually/mentally if not in physical strength) then the AU Horde because of it.

[Dnusha]

Yes! Grommash for new Horde leader!

[Deleted]

The only 2 places where the Iron Horde takes prisoners is so they can murder them for their souls. Either to power the dark portal or to summon the dark star. Other than that the Iron Horde is taking no prisoners.

The Shadowmoon aren't part of the Iron Horde, they fail to join up. And they are sacrificing Draenei and Frostwolves at the Dark Portal to fuel up the portal, again no genocide agenda.

Tuurem and all the surrounding area is completely destroyed. Telaar is taken out. They planned to use the dark star in Karabor which would have wiped out the draenei there. They had the super weapon aimed at Shattrath to destroy it.

As part of conquest, not as a genocidal campaign. That's the point I'm trying to correct.

I'm not sure what beta you're playing, but every indication shows the Iron Horde is trying to wipe out the draenei. The only time they take prisoners is so that they can murder those prisoners.

Except for the slaves that they have working for them. And how they can take prisoners if they fail to invade the two main cities, with all the refugees? Remember, the Iron Horde starts the attacks on the Draenei after we arrive on Draenor.

The Shadow Council is really only involved in Auchindoun and then Shattrath after the Iron Horde is stopped from wiping it out. The vast majority of draenei losses are at the hands of the Iron Horde.

Debatable, we pushed back the Iron Horde and saw the defenders being rescued. And then the Shadow Council takes control of Shattrath.

[TheWindWalker]

Like the shaman said. The sacrifice of Draenor and the years of slavery are worth it. Our current Horde is stronger(spiritually/mentally if not in physical strength) then the AU Horde because of it.

That's extremely debatable. Their homeworld is in ruins, their people are physically tainted by demon blood, the "old traditions" are heavily updated to avoid killing each over every little argument and the Warchief takes council from other races that he allows to live in an Orc city.

[Wyrt]

you are complaining about the Iron Horde exclusively...

Because no one is asking for the other groups to be let go scot-free.

The Iron Horde is doing by far the most damage to the draenei.

[The Jester]

What would really be the difference if Garrosh didn't interrupt him? Literally no difference.

Seeing Thrall freeing Grom, being his 'brother', fighting a Pit lord with him.

For an orc, this is 'honor' at it's finest form, and for orcs, 'Honor' is the most important thing they have.

So, I think there'd be a difference, since the invasion wouldn't play out the same exact way it did in WC1.

[Wyrt]

How the hell is the Iron horde getting off with anything? The raid shutsdown their industrial strongholds, dungeons destroy their naval yards and their railroads, they lose a lot of leadership and are forced to retreat to the Iron Citadel, reeling, with heavy losses and no Dark Portal.

Did you not read the OP or something? The thread is about Grom being redeemed.

[Lord Pebbleton]

Nnooooooooo please, not him again!!

[Gorsameth]

That's extremely debatable. Their homeworld is in ruins, their people are physically tainted by demon blood, the "old traditions" are heavily updated to avoid killing each over every little argument and the Warchief takes council from other races that he allows to live in an Orc city.

Let me quote the shamans words from the short story

"One world in ruins, but the other stronger than ever. Hellscream's sacrifice saves us all. You've seen it…"

To him the sacrifice of Draenor would be worth it in the end. That is the part of the vision Garrosh seeks to prevent Grom from seeing.

[Wyrt]

He doesn't need redemption. He's not drinking demon blood and damning his whole race into slavery because of cowardice, he's simply waging war. Warmongers don't need redemption, their defeat is sufficient.

Only his death is sufficient.

[Wyrt]

The Draenei are going to be fucked by their own people way worse than anything Grom did, does or will do.

That remains to be seen. On the beta right now the draenei are getting fucked from all sides, but Grom is doing by far the worst of it.