Evolution of Jaina Proudmore in WOD

[Ethenil]

I still really like Jaina and what she does: an excellent mage that will not stop from hurting the Horde

[Wondercrab]

Complete 180? Please, go read the story and pay attention to what happens. It's the same problem with people talking about Dalaran as if there was "mass murder". Too much convenient personal interpretation, but not enough attention paid to what is really going on or happened.

In case you don't want to, or simply will ignore what's in there, take a look at this post. It explains everything pretty well.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post29110923

Worth pointing out that a lot of the justification for Jaina's change in direction seems to come from stuff that happens in the books, specifically Tides of War. I'm sure that the books do indeed flesh out her transition a lot more and make it seem very believable and interesting. Unfortunately, it's still terrible storytelling to have all of the depth of a major character transition like this happen outside of your primary storytelling medium.

Bad fiction is never justified by external material, particularly not when it takes place in an entirely different medium. I'm sure book-Jaina is a great character. In fact I'm sure pretty much all of the Warcraft characters are way better in the books than they are in the games, but that doesn't matter if the game isn't also able to convey at least a semblance of the same information.

The game portrays Jaina as an angry, petulant, uppity nasty-person, with a personality plucked straight from the barrel of generic Warcraft stereotypes. It's a stark contrast to the calm, intelligent voice of reason we knew before, and because the only way to bridge that gap is to read a 400-page manual explaining it, it comes across as incredibly jarring and poorly conceived.

[greeeed]

Worth pointing out that a lot of the justification for Jaina's change in direction seems to come from stuff that happens in the books, specifically Tides of War. I'm sure that the books do indeed flesh out her transition a lot more and make it seem very believable and interesting. Unfortunately, it's still terrible storytelling to have all of the depth of a major character transition like this happen outside of your primary storytelling medium.

Bad fiction is never justified by external material, particularly not when it takes place in an entirely different medium. I'm sure book-Jaina is a great character. In fact I'm sure pretty much all of the Warcraft characters are way better in the books than they are in the games, but that doesn't matter if the game isn't also able to convey at least a semblance of the same information.

The game portrays Jaina as an angry, petulant, uppity nasty-person, with a personality plucked straight from the barrel of generic Warcraft stereotypes. It's a stark contrast to the calm, intelligent voice of reason we knew before, and because the only way to bridge that gap is to read a 400-page manual explaining it, it comes across as incredibly jarring and poorly conceived.

actually that was one of main reason for alliance players anger at blizzard
you can get most of horde story from playing WoW but if you want to understand at-least half of alliance story than you need to buy novel books

[Daralii]

Not what I heard, alliance started it by trying to find an artifact to use against the horde, then we found out about it and got to it first, now they're pissed and are warring with us.

Alliance goes to Ashran to excavate ogre artifacts, Horde freaks out because they think the Alliance will use them against them(AFAIK there's no indication that they would) and attacks.

[Osiria]

You missed the stormwind troops who started killing without being provoked and Jaina who ran around fireballing everybody when she could have just teleported them away (She only teleports some, and even then it's after she fireballs them).

And I saw a whole of "innocent" Blood Elves attacking back instead of not resisting arrest like the ones who were cornered. Let me give you an example of what could be considered unnecessary. Look at the DK starting zone, that is killing innocents.

As for Jaina fireballing. Are you talking about the innocent ones running around in circles, who were teleported, or talking about the Horde character?

Anyways, Alliance doesn't have to go out of their way to keep Horde lives if the only thing they do is try to kill said Alliance members. You don't attack cops who are trying to arrest you and call said cop a murderer if he kills you, doesn't matter if you're innocent.

Also, you seem pretty fine with the large amount of people killed by the Horde and Sunreavers in order to escape. You think that's ok? Oh, forgot about it. Horde can kill Alliance as much as they please, because they always have a good reason to do it...

Aethas could've made it all happen very differently, by the way. The whole Horde plot in that place is nonsensical. Jaina demanded them to leave, Aethas refused with a snarky comment, then she starts imprisioning them, only to complain they're getting arrested and attempt to escape, which was what Jaina ordered them to do.

We're not talking about being accused of some common crime, we're talking about the possibility of another event like Theramore, a whole city wiped out, so yea, the imprisionment is justified. I mean, not just another city. If Garrosh managed to do so as he wished, the entire Alliance would be wiped out. And the good people of the Horde? Oh yea, they would've done nothing to stop it, as they only made a real move when Garrosh began to harm the Horde itself. It's funny that Theron calls Alliance a bunch of bigots with the very weapon of mass destruction by his side...

Let me emphasize one last thing. One of the Sunreavers even say "Jaina is taking away my home by force? I'll remember this.." (I looked it up to confirm it). Fun fact, that's exactly what Blood Elves did to High Elves back in Silvermoon. In the worst case, they just got a payback for what they did with, expelled out of their homes. And by all means, I'm not saying there were no deaths, the ones who resisted (AkA tried to kill the ones who were arresting just because they were being arrested) and some Silver Covenant who were after vengeance, but to call it a "massacre" is just like asking a Horde Blood Elf if Alliance people are nice, a complete biased generalization. Oh, and the Blood Elves at least have a place to go back, the High Elves exiled had nowhere to go, if it weren't for Dalaran, they might've died.

[Northem]

So basically you want Jaina to grow a beard and a dick and ditch her dragon boyfriend who she is likely to create an abominable halfbreed with?
Khadgar always does what's best for Azeroth, not for the alliance, it'd go against his personality to make him hostile to the horde.

What I would like is that the Kirin Tor, despite being a member of the Alliance, would act in a chaotically good way, i.e., that although their loyalty is truly with the Alliance, they would act always in the smartest way possible given the circumstances.

For example, in the case of this war against the Iron Horde, the Kirin Tor could be postulated as a collaborative force of Alliance, which fights for the common good alongside the Horde to defeat the greater evil. Perfect example: the Archmage Khadgar.

Obviously, the Kirin Tor's resentment and even hatred and dislike towards the Horde would still exist, as at the end of the day they would remain being an Alliance force. In fact, the priority for the Kirin Tor would be to help the Alliance, not to the Horde, but as I said before, the circumstances may require collaborating all together.

What I expect from all this?

Basically that Jaina understands that her personal feelings should not influence on the destiny of Dalaran and so, unexpectedly, she would leave the place of leader of the Kirin Tor in the hands of the Archmage Khadgar.
Obviously Jaina would remain as a member of the Council of Six, although she will have other more personal "issues" to deal with in Kul Tiras (in the future expansion of the South Seas and the Nagas).
Once Khadgar had absolute control of the Kirin Tor and Dalaran, he would give some unexpected news: Dalaran will remain being a key part of the Alliance, indeed, Khadgar would swear by his life his unwavering loyalty for the Alliance, but yes, maintaining their independent spirit that has always characterized them: they will be members of the Alliance, not mere puppets, so in cases of force majeure and given certain circumstances, the Kirin Tor would reserve their right to make decisions and act on their own, of course as long as they contribute and not are detrimental to the rest of the Alliance.

[Aeula]

And I saw a whole of "innocent" Blood Elves attacking back instead of not resisting arrest like the ones who were cornered. Let me give you an example of what could be considered unnecessary. Look at the DK starting zone, that is killing innocents.

As for Jaina fireballing. Are you talking about the innocent ones running around in circles, who were teleported, or talking about the Horde character?

Anyways, Alliance doesn't have to go out of their way to keep Horde lives if the only thing they do is try to kill said Alliance members. You don't attack cops who are trying to arrest you and call said cop a murderer if he kills you, doesn't matter if you're innocent.

Also, you seem pretty fine with the large amount of people killed by the Horde and Sunreavers in order to escape. You think that's ok? Oh, forgot about it. Horde can kill Alliance as much as they please, because they always have a good reason to do it...

Aethas could've made it all happen very differently, by the way. The whole Horde plot in that place is nonsensical. Jaina demanded them to leave, Aethas refused with a snarky comment, then she starts imprisioning them, only to complain they're getting arrested and attempt to escape, which was what Jaina ordered them to do.

We're not talking about being accused of some common crime, we're talking about the possibility of another event like Theramore, a whole city wiped out, so yea, the imprisionment is justified. I mean, not just another city. If Garrosh managed to do so as he wished, the entire Alliance would be wiped out. And the good people of the Horde? Oh yea, they would've done nothing to stop it, as they only made a real move when Garrosh began to harm the Horde itself. It's funny that Theron calls Alliance a bunch of bigots with the very weapon of mass destruction by his side...

Let me emphasize one last thing. One of the Sunreavers even say "Jaina is taking away my home by force? I'll remember this.." (I looked it up to confirm it). Fun fact, that's exactly what Blood Elves did to High Elves back in Silvermoon. In the worst case, they just got a payback for what they did with, expelled out of their homes. And by all means, I'm not saying there were no deaths, the ones who resisted (AkA tried to kill the ones who were arresting just because they were being arrested) and some Silver Covenant who were after vengeance, but to call it a "massacre" is just like asking a Horde Blood Elf if Alliance people are nice, a complete biased generalization. Oh, and the Blood Elves at least have a place to go back, the High Elves exiled had nowhere to go, if it weren't for Dalaran, they might've died.

Yes I mean the ones running in circles, she and the stormwind troops attack them and almost always kill them unless the player intervenes, even then they can still die (I recently tried to save some but Jaina came by and fireballs them, which actually killed them), if you're attacked by armed soldiers while cowering in fear (Not attacking or trying to escape) what do you do? You run or fight back.
As for the sunreavers killing Kirin tor, you don't see us running around killing the shop keepers (They're unattackable) or civilians, only the guards who hold blood elves against their will or are actively hunting them down to kill.

[Deleted]

1-looking at thrall & Orc.....
(other horde races still waiting for their turn)

This was never about which faction gets how much presence, but okay...

2-actually Khadgar was helping the horde too so from alliance point of view he is another natural hero

I was talking about Varian Wrynn. What in hell would define Khadgar as Badass?

[Traveler Voltin]

Alliance goes to Ashran to excavate ogre artifacts, Horde freaks out because they think the Alliance will use them against them(AFAIK there's no indication that they would) and attacks.

so the horde again pulls the stupid freak out card over nothing?
my hatred for blizzard grows more.

[Cute Chen]

So other than be prejudice against a Culture and Faction proven to commit genocide, who is NOW ruled by the leaders who LET it happen; Stopping terrorists who commited treason, AVOIDED an unnecessary conflict with people she has political grievances against. and pointing out that after invading germany and taking out hitler we probably shouldnt give power back to the Axis of Power in case another Nazi regime might come about What did she even do wrong?

Just wanted to say I read your post. Very well thought-out and more compelling than these "JAINA SUX" posts.

[Thage]

I was talking about Varian Wrynn. What in hell would define Khadgar as Badass?

Being trained by Medivh, being influential in stopping the Sargeras-possessed Medivh, being one of the major players in the Second War, and being one of the leaders of the Alliance Expedition into Draenor (and surviving its destruction and surviving on Outland for years afterward) all point to him being pretty badass for a guy who got cursed to rapidly age into an old man during his fight with Medivh.

[Archangel Tyrael]

Being trained by Medivh, being influential in stopping the Sargeras-possessed Medivh, being one of the major players in the Second War, and being one of the leaders of the Alliance Expedition into Draenor (and surviving its destruction and surviving on Outland for years afterward) all point to him being pretty badass for a guy who got cursed to rapidly age into an old man during his fight with Medivh.

How old is he currently?

[Lahis]

How old is he currently?

Year 0 in Warcraft timeline is the (original) opening of the Dark Portal.

Khadgar was born in year -14. In Beyond the Dark Portal, Khadgar states that he became an old man at age 17, and at the time the Alliance Expedition entered Draenor (year 8) he was 22 years of age. Based on the latest timeline from the Ultimate Visual Guide provided by Blizzard, this would make him 44 by the time of Mists of Pandaria.

He would be aroung 45 in WoD. Even after the shave he does look a bit older than that.