Celestalon insight about rogues (not mentioned in mmo-champion blue posts)

[Bullettime]

It depends on what's classified as endgame. Warlocks for example during Cataclysm had a great raiding and PvP rep but the devs admitted the overall population was nosediving which sparked the rework.

Like is that just looking at max level count? Raid participation? What?

[Pathal]

It depends on what's classified as endgame. Warlocks for example during Cataclysm had a great raiding and PvP rep but the devs admitted the overall population was nosediving which sparked the rework.

Like is that just looking at max level count? Raid participation? What?

That's a graph of some of characters played at max level after a week or two of a patch going live. The cata data point is after the bump up for rogues. It definitely dropped a little as Cata went on, but I can't remember by how much or if it was even meaningful. However with no data to say one way or the other (I could have sworn there were charts for this before) it's kind of an irrelevant discussion.

[Wow]

Like is that just looking at max level count? Raid participation? What?

All that reached lvl 80, 85, 90 and had active account so overall max lvl population.

[Hitei]

Things would have been different for rogues in mop if mop only gave to others and didn't gut rogues by doing things like fun talent trees having 3 things you use to have and now you get to pick one etc. Would rogue pop have gone down in wod if they didn't nerf rogues from cata probably but probably not anywhere near as much as what happened. With wod not really fixing anything and is making somethings worse, its only going to get worse and halfass'ing cp's sure isn't gonna help.

I'm fairly certain that warlords will be the darkest time for Rogues. I imagine our population will absolutely plummet and that in 7.0 the devs will have no choice but to actually revamp the class and give it the flavor, uniqueness and fixes it needs.

[odoylerules]

I have to say that I've been spectating this thread for a while and although I don't agree with everything he/she is saying, Sorzarra seems to be speaking far more rationally than the vast majority of the posters on this thread.

First the problem is that Rogues never changed, and then in the next breath the same posters complain about how things used to be better when they were different. That doesn't make sense.

First the problem is that Rogue gameplay is old and stale, and then in the next breath the same posters complain about the new talents (which by the way, have the rest of the WoW community jealous for DfA)

First the problem is that numbers don't matter as long as gameplay is interesting and engaging, and then in the next breath the same posters complain about damage output.

I've been following threads for about five different classes for the past few months as I decide what my new main will be, and have to say that not only are the Rogue threads BY FAR the most toxic, but have BY FAR the least to complain about. Your rotation is solid. Your theme is cool. You have multiple specs that are viable. And you're threatening to roll a DK cause there's no new toys to play with? (Again, another ridiculous statement, considering you got the undisputedly coolest new talent in the game)

This community is so bad that I'm seeing Rogues post on other class forums to complain about Rogues. And some of the most inconsiderate and rude statements I've encountered in all of my WoW reading has been directed at Celestalon from this thread, who is clearly one of the most engaging developers in the gaming industry. You can disagree with the guy without resorting to Junior High name-calling, and yet he still is willing to have a conversation with you after this completely inappropriate treatment.

The sad bottom line is that Rogues are in a really good spot. They are preferable to WW monks for a raid spot (their main competition), and are the only class in the game that will benefit from AGI daggers, meaning there's always going to be room for them in a progression guild. On top of all of this, the removal of move-while-casting abilities, and the immense uptick in fight mechanics in WoD, puts Rogues in an extremely good position to be not only be dynamic and engaging, but be on top of the damage meters.

Lots of people from other classes that have some real legitimate issues are rolling Rogue in 6.0 because they're in such a good position. Lots of people are extremely jealous of classes like Rogues that don't have to relearn everything from the ground up (myself included).

I'm personally leaning towards rolling Rogue in WoD specifically because of how much fun they are shaping up to be on beta. And I'm not the only one (ask Preach). The only downside that I can see at this point is having to navigate these toxic threads in search of meaningful and constructive conversations on improving.

Thanks for your time and please continue with your hatred.

Oh, and P.S. - Complaining about 7% population in a game with 11 classes and 13% of players are hunters is really the bottom of the barrel for whining. What's next? You don't like the colour yellow?

infracted: trolling

[Ferg]

For those of you not in Beta:

Rogues are fine

In fact, Assassination is quite possibly the best spec in the entire game (possibly, not stating fact)

They're fun, they're fluid, they finally transfer CPs (yes!), and it feels good

But continue whining, as someone who mained a rogue from Vanilla to WotLK I know how these threads go

[Maelstrom51]

For those of you not in Beta:

Rogues are fine

In fact, Assassination is quite possibly the best spec in the entire game (possibly, not stating fact)

They're fun, they're fluid, they finally transfer CPs (yes!), and it feels good

But continue whining, as someone who mained a rogue from Vanilla to WotLK I know how these threads go

I am in beta as well.

Your combo points disappearing when your target is force despawned (e.g., Protectors' desperate measures phases) does not feel good.
Being 97% optimal on damage without choosing a single talent does not feel good.
Having only one tier of talents where you actually have a choice as to what you pick does not feel good.
Having half your damage come from passive sources does not feel good.

I love Assassination and will continue playing my rogue, but to call rogues fine is pure ignorance.

[Ferg]

I am in beta as well.

Your combo points disappearing when your target is force despawned (e.g., Protectors' desperate measures phases) does not feel good.
Being 97% optimal on damage without choosing a single talent does not feel good.
Having only one tier of talents where you actually have a choice as to what you pick does not feel good.
Having half your damage come from passive sources does not feel good.

I love Assassination and will continue playing my rogue, but to call rogues fine is pure ignorance.

If you're playing a dual-wield, fast-weapon, poison-centric spec and complaining about passive damage, I have something to tell you about your class choice...

[Skarzog]

For those of you not in Beta:

Rogues are fine

In fact, Assassination is quite possibly the best spec in the entire game (possibly, not stating fact)

They're fun, they're fluid, they finally transfer CPs (yes!), and it feels good

But continue whining, as someone who mained a rogue from Vanilla to WotLK I know how these threads go

I don't think anyone is actually complaining about Assassination, most of the issues are centered around Combat. The changes to Subtly are interesting, but I don't want to comment because we really won't be able to get a feel for how those changes effect the spec until we reach larger amounts of Multistrike, so certainly not within the first tier. Combat has the same issue its had going into every expansion, the spec starts off too slow due to a lack of haste. The increase of SS to 50 energy coupled with the removal of reforging has made Combat incredibly slow. I think the latest sims put combat somewhere in the 40-50% downtime range going into the first tier of raiding. Everyone knows the classic "Haste will fix it" slogan, but considering there will only be 2 tiers this expansion that might not be the case this time.

Talents are also a legitimate issue. Blizzard themselves has acknowledged our talents are "less impactful" than they would like, so there seems to be at least a small consensus between the players and the developers on this issue. And yet its been completely ignored this beta. I posted this earlier but my argument is what was the point of the MoP talent revamp in the first place? The argument presented by developers was the old style of talents were too cookie cutter. By pruning the talent trees they would be able to focus on a fewer number of talents and provide players with legitimate choices. Allowing us to respec at any moment would encouraged respecialization to fit the situation. That didn't happen for this class and will continue not to happen. There are 2 rows of talents which have virtually no impact in a raid environment. Anticipation isn't even really a choice with something like 91% of level 90 Rogues speced into it.

So there are legitimate issues and people are not just complaining for the sake of it.

[Sesshou]

the new talents (which by the way, have the rest of the WoW community jealous for DfA)

(Again, another ridiculous statement, considering you got the undisputedly coolest new talent in the game)

Are you shitting me? Anyone jealous of DfA is a moron. You can get CC'd out of the hit after the jump, and in PvE, it is another giant death trap and hardly does anything for your total dps.

[Hitei]

If you're playing a dual-wield, fast-weapon, poison-centric spec and complaining about passive damage, I have something to tell you about your class choice...

Absolutely none of this indicates a need for passive damage.

Dual weild = Attacking with both weapons, see mut.
Fast-weapon = Hitting attacks a lot. No need for passive damage, provide rapid energy regen and put damage on active abilities.
poison-centric = See envenom. "Poison" can be made active and more interesting, the spec just needs more things of a poison nature that are active.

[Deleted]

I don't know how much attention we should pay to some people who aren't playing rogues and just telling the community to shut up. Do you go to other's forum and tell them to "shut the hell up, you are fine"? I don't.

[Deleted]

(...)
I'm personally leaning towards rolling Rogue in WoD specifically because of how much fun they are shaping up to be on beta. And I'm not the only one (ask Preach). The only downside that I can see at this point is having to navigate these toxic threads in search of meaningful and constructive conversations on improving.
(...)

If you want constructive posts, you can actually find a lot of such posts at the beginning of Beta... but do not try to find any on the official forums where a blue poster acknowledged anything !.. :-) Yes, we are tired and fed up to always be ignored and always proven right in our complains because the class always receives band aid fixes in X.1 and X.2 for almost all the previous X versions of Wow. You are not part of the community yet... The guys, here, including me, who are posting harsh comments have been playing rogue for a very long time and are extremely dedicated to the class (playing a rogue as a main or just not playing anymore) so do not tell them they are wrong because you apparently know nothing about the history of the rogue class...

PS : if you actually roll a rogue, I would be extremely happy to read your "constructive" posts after a few months of playing rogue in WoD and also see your reaction when no answers are coming from blues or at most an answer that will get you understand the blue poster knows actually nothing about the actual situation...
Grass is always greener on the other side... but actually, here, we almost all play a few other classes (as for me I am also playing frost and blood DK, dps Paly and affli Demo)...

[Deleted]

-wall of text-

Give this man a cookie for saying it as it is!

[Hitei]

Give this man a cookie for saying it as it is!

I'm sorry, but people who do not play rogues, and think they are "fun" and "in a really good spot" because they've played them 20 minutes on beta should not be commenting on the status of the class.

[Kuntantee]

First the problem is that Rogues never changed, and then in the next breath the same posters complain about how things used to be better when they were different. That doesn't make sense.

How that doesn't make sense
Rogue -> State A
Others -> State B

5 years later

Rogue -> State A
Others -> State C

Absolutely same thing can be "shit" compared to other classes in a relative manner. What's so hard to understand?

First the problem is that Rogue gameplay is old and stale, and then in the next breath the same posters complain about the new talents (which by the way, have the rest of the WoW community jealous for DfA)

So something new == fun/exciting/awesome/holy? This is what I call lack of logic employment. Shadow reflection is a shit talent designed with fear of making it OP. Venomous rush(zest whatever) is passive.. So yeah, some may like it which I respect. I personally don't hate this tier but I still understand how people say it is stale and lackluster. and "Wow community" is jealous? Don't be absurd.

First the problem is that numbers don't matter as long as gameplay is interesting and engaging, and then in the next breath the same posters complain about damage output.

Please do not generalize minor incosistencies (if they exist or you didn't misinterpret) to whole community. Do you think Rogue community is composed of mmo-c posters?

I've been following threads for about five different classes for the past few months as I decide what my new main will be, and have to say that not only are the Rogue threads BY FAR the most toxic, but have BY FAR the least to complain about. Your rotation is solid. Your theme is cool. You have multiple specs that are viable. And you're threatening to roll a DK cause there's no new toys to play with? (Again, another ridiculous statement, considering you got the undisputedly coolest new talent in the game)

These are your opinions. Another fool thinks his opinions are facts. Assassination rotation is composed of 3 buttons, it's solid? Again, I personally don't mind but understand those who don't like it.

This community is so bad that I'm seeing Rogues post on other class forums to complain about Rogues. And some of the most inconsiderate and rude statements I've encountered in all of my WoW reading has been directed at Celestalon from this thread, who is clearly one of the most engaging developers in the gaming industry. You can disagree with the guy without resorting to Junior High name-calling, and yet he still is willing to have a conversation with you after this completely inappropriate treatment.

Again, you are generalizing those who are rude to rest of the community.

The sad bottom line is that Rogues are in a really good spot. They are preferable to WW monks for a raid spot (their main competition), and are the only class in the game that will benefit from AGI daggers, meaning there's always going to be room for them in a progression guild. On top of all of this, the removal of move-while-casting abilities, and the immense uptick in fight mechanics in WoD, puts Rogues in an extremely good position to be not only be dynamic and engaging, but be on top of the damage meters.

Your opinions. Last time I checked, rogues were in the middle of dps ranking, not top.

Lots of people from other classes that have some real legitimate issues are rolling Rogue in 6.0 because they're in such a good position. Lots of people are extremely jealous of classes like Rogues that don't have to relearn everything from the ground up (myself included).

I'm personally leaning towards rolling Rogue in WoD specifically because of how much fun they are shaping up to be on beta. And I'm not the only one (ask Preach). The only downside that I can see at this point is having to navigate these toxic threads in search of meaningful and constructive conversations on improving.

Thanks for your time and please continue with your hatred.

Oh, and P.S. - Complaining about 7% population in a game with 11 classes and 13% of players are hunters is really the bottom of the barrel for whining. What's next? You don't like the colour yellow?

What a toxic poster.

I mean, some of you(non rogue players) are so fucking absurd it's not even funny. If you play <whatever-your-main-is> for 3 years and then suddenly switch to rogue, of course it's going to feel fresh. But for those who played rogue for many years, problems like lack of uniqueness, stale game-play and similar-spec-feel and boring rotation are more obvious.

[Deleted]

I'm sorry, but people who do not play rogues, and think they are "fun" and "in a really good spot" because they've played them 20 minutes on beta should not be commenting on the status of the class.

There is some truth to that, but he also has some points which I, rogue player for close to 6 years, agree with.

There are plenty of issues with the rogue class, true. But the fact that we're still maining this class means we still find it the most appealing. Choices and actions speak more than forum posts.

[Deleted]

There is some truth to that, but he also has some points which I, rogue player for close to 6 years, agree with.

There are plenty of issues with the rogue class, true. But the fact that we're still maining this class means we still find it the most appealing. Choices and actions speak more than forum posts.

As for me, I stopped playing after the beginning of Cata because I was extremely fed up of the rogue issues (and resumed playing at the beginning of the year because the deaparture of GC gave me a lot of hope for the rogue class). Right before quiting, I leveled a Demo and raided a few months with it but I realised that my rogue was the only character I could seriously play, not because of the rogue class but because of the character itself. This game is all about my night elve rogue and playing another character as a main is like playing another game. Actually, I have 2 level 90 rogues and I am leveling a third one to learn Sub. Some people can change their main character to be always optimal, I just cannot.

You may find strange that I am complaining so much about a class I chose three times... This absolutely makes sense : I want to deeply understand anything I am doing and I am not upset because of the class itself but because of the behavior of the devs who are consistently ignoring the rogue community feedback.

[Deleted]

-snip wall of text-

infracted: trolling

Please, by all means, continue telling us how fun and exciting the class is and how we don't have anything to complain about when you haven't mained a Rogue, ever.

Great bait tho.

infracted: spam

You infract me? No, I infract you! (jk, pls don't ban)

[Sativ]

You people are complaining like rogues are broken and unplayable.

When in reality the ONLY problem with rogue besides SR scaling poorly and DFA being CCable is:

Our talent and Glyph choices are so damn bland I had more choices in MoP than I do in WoD. That's seriously saying something...