Celestalon insight about rogues (not mentioned in mmo-champion blue posts)

[Taeyon]

Unless they figure out a way to reduce the passivity of damage it will feel the same every time.

[Mac223]

Yeah, I'd rather have them take on thing at a time, and fix the stuff that people have been specifically and consistently complain about, rather than suddenly changing everything. I'm watering at the mouth thinking about how nice it would have been to get a slight, but long awaited improvement every now and then. CPs should have been given the monk treatment an entire expansion ago, for instance.

I also wish they'd just go a head and make abilities do different amounts of damage against players compared to NPCs; added complexities be damned. It'd make it so much easier for them to balance the numbers, if they could just have a separate set of knobs to turn for each aspect of the game. They basically won't make rogue damage less passive because they're worried we'd jump out of stealth and obliterate people in PvP. Like we did before they changed expose weakness. I guess it'd still be the same way for PvPers though, but it's been so long since I did anything remotely close to high level PvP that I have nothing to say on the matter.

[Naiattavain]

I don't really feel like the class needs a total redesign. Our basic system of energy and combo points is solid, and with the points moving to the rogue, it's gotten a lot less cumbersome in Warlords. A complete overhaul also brings the issue of having to rebalance the numbers all over again -- no easy feat -- which would prove frustrating to both the devs and the players when right now our numbers look great. Are we prepared to risk our numbers being worse? Do we really want our class to be so different we might find we no longer enjoy playing it at all?

The class just needs a rejuvenation - a facelift and a new hairdo. We could benefit from some tweaks to our talent trees, a reevaluation of which abilities should be baseline, and the injection of novelty through a few interesting new abilities or talents and access to existing ones that currently compete with mandatory alternatives. Strengthen our spec niches so they feel like more than "stabby" vs "slashy" by customising our toolbox to our unique spec forte and adding some flavour. It would be really nice if many of our iconic abilities had their animations updated or spell effects added to give us a little "cool factor" while fighting, as many of our abilities have no spell effects (or are extremely muted compared to other melee classes) and don't look much different than regular combat animations except for the actual model pose. I don't feel like we need to be super flashy and over-the-top -- that is counter to our archetype -- but I'd certainly love if more things resulted in a flurry of poison or a spray of blood and whatnot. Passive damage is already a legitimate issue for some specs, so the psychological factor of how it feels when it looks like we're just auto attacking down our enemies only exacerbates the feeling.

But that's just me I suppose.

Please don't single your self out, just you as you suppose. there's a lot of us that are frustrated.

all specs need depth of feel, the resource system is mismatched, the talents are just thrown in and jumbled together: not defined as a tier of talents; only one is the mobility tier. the specs and rotations are restricted to certain weapon types. poisons are gibletized. thing is that players always find ways around the problem by starting new strats agility-crit-mastery using shadow dance with find weakness buff. break it all down its just shadow dance with find weakness debuff. the devs always break what is working or what works. "The class just needs a rejuvenation" this wont happen until the devs change their philosophy. its a shitty one at that. their philosophy on rogue is exactly what you get in game.

this would be easy if someone was trusted to make an effort to give a balanced experience. an experience that would give you a reward for the talent that the player has. consider your self smart and have a inner desire to be a good person. thats how it should be and when others validate you for being smart or talented your time invested pays off because then you have meaning to your organization. specifically the time you use and organise whether it be entertainment or at work school its still valuable.

[Taeyon]

Yeah, I'd rather have them take on thing at a time, and fix the stuff that people have been specifically and consistently complain about, rather than suddenly changing everything. I'm watering at the mouth thinking about how nice it would have been to get a slight, but long awaited improvement every now and then. CPs should have been given the monk treatment an entire expansion ago, for instance.

I also wish they'd just go a head and make abilities do different amounts of damage against players compared to NPCs; added complexities be damned. It'd make it so much easier for them to balance the numbers, if they could just have a separate set of knobs to turn for each aspect of the game. They basically won't make rogue damage less passive because they're worried we'd jump out of stealth and obliterate people in PvP. Like we did before they changed expose weakness. I guess it'd still be the same way for PvPers though, but it's been so long since I did anything remotely close to high level PvP that I have nothing to say on the matter.

They've stated numerous times that they don't want to have separate coefficients for spells regarding player vs npc.

It would make the game better to have separate spells to balance pvp and pve exclusively but I highly doubt their capacity to do so.

[Naiattavain]

They've stated numerous times that they don't want to have separate coefficients for spells regarding player vs npc.

It would make the game better to have separate spells to balance pvp and pve exclusively but I highly doubt their capacity to do so.

assassination was the spec that had hybreed of physical and nature-poison damage so you had the best of both damage types. rogue is looked at as one from two points of view pve and pvp thats what makes it difficult to tune. isolating pve and pvp for all three specs would make it easier to balance. its just look at as whole thats correlation.


-----------pve
rogue| rogue: the rogue sandwich Oo
-----------pvp


PVP----------rogue---------PVE : Rogue home made chili cheese dog; style. mercedes benz = class.

the second actually isolates pvp to pvp and pve to pve. so what ever numbers are there i guess copy that and keep that with pve. pvp is the part of rogue that is suffering. problem with pvp is: mismatched energy-reliance upon vanish; i think of vanish as a perk. ineffective cc. queer stealth mechanics.

perks poisons, stealth, resource

poisons may apply up to three any kind of poisons upon weapons. rogue have melee and throwing.

stealth all sorts of stuff takes you out of stealth regardless if your even seen or alerted.

resource needs to match so that the player feels "hey im pretty resourceful" [we want our players to think this so subscription status is intact so that our monthly income is around 168 million a month; we rather have 100 million over 168 million a month. with damage left untouched. this would give rogue burst during combat instead all tied into find weakness and shadow dance.

i'm so gawd damn sick of talking about this: so someone please finish what im writing.

"why you gotta player hate on ig88-- why you gotta player hate on ig88" -- MC cris

[Maelstrom51]

assassination was the spec that had hybreed of physical and nature-poison damage so you had the best of both damage types. rogue is looked at as one from two points of view pve and pvp thats what makes it difficult to tune. isolating pve and pvp for all three specs would make it easier to balance.

None of what you said after this made sense. Are you regularcustomer by chance?

[Grayjoy]

Between the baffling silence of the devs and the disjointed PvP feedback by the borderline schizophrenic above, this thread makes me depressed.

The only thing that really frustrates me is the fact that our combo point and stealth mechanics are still buggy. If they don't want to change us, well, ok, but at least make sure the mechanics you aren't changing work properly. Baking redirect into our class and then calling it combo points on the rogue is a bit insulting, almost like a way for them to make us shut up about it.

[Feali]

"why you gotta player hate on ig88-- why you gotta player hate on ig88" -- MC cris

You know I was actually trying very hard to understand what you were trying to say. I think I have some kind of idea now. But this? Wtf... like.. what?

[Mirean]

https://twitter.com/Mirean95/status/512357391153627138

Maybe he will reply this time....or maybe not
This is arguably the most annoying thing about this - we can tweet Celestalon as many times as we want but we never get any answer, not even simple "No"

[Linneth]

https://twitter.com/Mirean95/status/512357391153627138

Maybe he will reply this time....or maybe not
This is arguably the most annoying thing about this - we can tweet Celestalon as many times as we want but we never get any answer, not even simple "No"

They once said that they were working on it, just to say that there were no current plans some months later.

I'll try to pick the tweets if I can.

Edit. Here it is:

[Mirean]

Yeah, I was searching for some tweets regarding rogues and all I could find was "facestab" thing and "there are no plans to change talents this late into beta" 1 day before hunter talent change

[Karry]

Yea, besides all the problems we have, I feel having no choice in utility poisons is pretty damn bad. Keep tweeting the guy because I am really curious to see what he has to say. It would be DAMN funny if for almost 2 months ( from now till wod ) we get no answer. I mean our utility poisons are basially just cripplling. That's it? After 1001 expansions that's ALL that they could come up with. And they need to do smth about Vendetta such a boring and stupid skill. Make it be on the rogue for less dmg and give a modifier or smth to change gameplay for that duration.

[Packing an i5]

so its down to leeching and crippling.. and they dumped the poison deadly brew set bonus right? that means crippling will be mandatory for pvp.

[shadowboy]

After 1001 expansions that's ALL that they could come up with.

That's pretty hyperbolic. There have been only 101 expansions.

[Feali]

Keep tweeting the guy because I am really curious to see what he has to say.

I'm tweeting him daily. Didn't get a response for weeks.

- - - Updated - - -

so its down to leeching and crippling.. and they dumped the poison deadly brew set bonus right? that means crippling will be mandatory for pvp.

Exactly and the new 4pc is just shit.

[Creed]

Ho- damn, this thread is still clinging to life? I thought we'd all agreed the Rogue class- sorry- the Efficient Number Producing class was in a bad spot flavor and game play wise, but still did its intended job and therefore warranted not even a second glance?

I actually finally got beta since last I posted in this thread and I've done days worth of testing the three specs, hoping- somewhere- in the far off recesses of my imagination, to find an ounce of fun and flavor. I found that Death From above is /awesome/ looking the first day; And the damage feels really satisfying /when it crits/... otherwise, by day 3, it was just a delay and red flag that yelled "Look at me! I'm attempting to do damage!"
The 2pc PvP bonus is really flavorful but utterly useless vs. most all melee.
The 4pc I love the idea of allowing us to make Vanish into an offensive ability, but...for the 4pc? I don't know, feels like it should be a talent option to me... could work well for PvP and PvE used correctly.
Shadow Reflection has a lot of flavor with all the potency of a vasectomy patient.
Subtelty was "watch uptime" the game, the movie, based on the best-selling book.
Combat DID feel smoother, but, idk... it didn't feel rewarding.

Thats just my input after some testing on my end.

[Deleted]

I find this discussion quite phony honestly.
Many classes didn't get changes for WoD or haven't changed in a significant manner for years.

Competitive PvE and PvP always mean that there is no choice between talents that's what min maxing is all about. 90% of the time talent A is vastly superior to talent B or C (for everyone!).

As for classes not getting changed for WoD, rogues are far from the only ones. Look at mages (the class that is supposedly very loved my Blizzard).

They aren't getting changes for WoD either (besides crystal prism the level 100 talent which feels extremely RNG and clunky). Most mages would have rather not gotten any "new exciting mechanics" than that.

[Feali]

As for classes not getting changed for WoD, rogues are far from the only ones. Look at mages (the class that is supposedly very loved my Blizzard).

They aren't getting changes for WoD either (besides crystal prism the level 100 talent which feels extremely RNG and clunky). Most mages would have rather not gotten any "new exciting mechanics" than that.

What about the complete talent tree overhaul. Especially of the level 90 talents which we have been asking for since MoP beta.

[Creed]

Well looky there...another build and no Rogue changes in sight! Not a one. But, that isnt the disheartening part...
Without copy-pasting the entire blue post... Blizzard basically said, for Fury Warriors:
"We read the description of your spec- and we felt that the way it played doesn't match the way it presents itself. So, rather than make little changes, we're "ripping off the bandaid" (love that one) so to speak, and applying changes now. Removing Colossus Smash from Fury, making it Arms only.

There is more, obviously, but- what happened to "too late for big changes, now we're just number tuning"? What the actual hell, Blizz.

This just.. I can't even.. how do.. why would..

Done.

[Skarzog]

I stopped expecting any changes, but are we not even going to get a legitimate damage pass now too? Is their approach to Rogue design, throw something at the wall the first week of beta, see what sticks, good enough?

This seems like a repeat of MoP, shit just goes in broken as hell and we have to wait until 5.1/6.1 for some attention.

Edit: I think I figured it out. Rogues are the standard here, they are balancing everything else around us thus the lack of changes. Why didn't I see this before, duh.