Why can Hunters move, but Other Ranged Can't?

[HardlyWaken]

Yes, actually, it is. It is factually, objectively worse. It's either only stealth when we stand still or stealth at all times with a 50% movement speed reduction. Sure, we can launch traps (two of which are entirely useless in any situation where camo would be useful) but rogues get the same lenience with Sap. In WoD, we'll get a heal from it which is nice but we don't have a decent way to break combat to get back into stealth so most times it'll be a 6 second tick, not amazing.



Well, yes, it is. Their argument hinged on it being a 'unique and more interesting stealth' than rogues. It isn't. Case closed.

Actually the argument I was making around stealth was that while rogues are the kings of stealth it isn't exclusive to them. Same could go for mobility. Hunters (even on live) are the best at mobility, it is their niche, but a few others (Warlock/Shaman) have some "knock off" ranged mobility in the same manner. And unlike stealth, they enhanced the playstyle of these classes greatly, both of which (Destro and Ele) had a history of struggling in PVP due to a lack of mobility outside of high burst cleave seasons.

[Jikate-Stormrage]

Here's my current issues atm with Hunters vs. other Ranged Dps.

I main a Warlock and yes I do plenty of damage. Hunters aren't significantly THAT far behind me on output considering similar gear levels and ability to play.

They have great AOE the same as most other ranged Dps.

Blizzard gave us Grimoire of Sacrifice. It becomes popular, then all of a sudden Blizzard says "wait, Warlocks are a pet class and as such should have a pet out...". They nerf it thus far in WOD Beta, and give the very same ability to Hunters (yet another Iconic Pet Class). Notice I didn't say DO NOT nerf Sacrifice, just pointing out the obvious mixed signals being presented to the players here.

PvE: I don't consider losing any mobility damage output to be overall important to a large percentage of WoW Players.

1. They can easily design fights around movement. PvE is scripted and as such once you learn the fight, you easily adjust to minimal movement to maximize your dps. A simple knob of adjusting health/berserk timers can bring resolution to no dps whilst moving to avoid mechanics.

2. While dps is a fairly important metric in deciding where one stands compared to others, dmg meters aren't all that important once you know you have enough Raid dps to beat the enrage. It helps to measure improvement from gear etc. but otherwise it's not important as long as all DPS classes are within the same range of capable dmg output.

PvP: This is a HUGE issue!!! DPS doesn't mean jack shit here. What matters is mobility and utility.

1. Hunters vs any class. Their mobility is everything. They kite melee and ranged alike (generally having further range on abilities then most casters, so yes they can kite a mobile "caster" and not take a dangerous amount of incoming damage.

2. With disengage and deterrence they have both a gap "gainer" and a highly effective damage mitigation cd. Compared to what for casters? Locks have teleports (which have to be set up before using and can be ranged or time out). Shamans have a knockback....that only works SOME of the time terrain willing. Priests.... well dot em up and run like hell I guess?

3. CC you say? Both locks and priests have fear...DR's will suck of course. Locks have a stun.. but do you use that to stun melee then run away to cast at a distance? Nope because by the time you run away, stop, and start casting... melee will be on you after the stun wears off before you can finish your "big nuke". Succy's whiplash is meh, same standard as Shammies knockback. Mages have a ton of CONTROL, esp frost.... so nah, I don't count them in this argument.


Closing: Hunters have a great deal of utility to deal with both casters and melee. Other ranged (minus Frost Mage of course) are missing mobility, control and suffer casting times. By the time you get to use any of your "nukes" the melee are on you already, have silenced you or that hunter has whittled you down to almost dead.

I'm not advocating FULL mobility for all. But god damn, its not hard at all to see an issue with all of this! WoD PvP will be dominated by Hunters/Melee unless one of three things happen:

1. Casters Nukes become so damn OP that you REALLY REALLY hurt your target when you do get one off somehow.
2. Casters retain their one filler spell as castable whilst moving, balancing the damage of it of course for fairness.
3. Melee have their numbers retuned to hit for a lot less while keeping their attack speed. Remember, they attack fast, can interrupt/stun AND their fast attacks cause PUSHBACK! So ..... no pushback on all castable spells as well as lowering their damage???

Without some serious thought put into this issue... We're looking at Vanilla all over again. World of Roguecraft. And a ranged, mobile class who can kite melee and kill casters while staying out of reach the entire time. For example... Hunter sees Lock, Hunter opens up at max range. Lock moves forward to get into range. He gets into range, hunter sees him starting to cast and simply kites away until he's no longer inside the locks range. Locks cast cancels, hunter runs in and opens again. Lock starts casting.. rinse and repeat. Lock logs out in frustration. Hunter snickers.

Again not advocating keeping locks OP, they were OP and I would honestly rather us be in line with everyone else's dps potential. But I didn't design locks, blame Blizzard. Being what it is, it needs fixed. But making casters suffer so you can call something "special" or "niche" is bullshit at best. Nerfing one classes ability (Sacrifice) and giving it to another class for "reasons?" is bad design. And you end up looking stupid in the end with no recourse.

Thank you.

[schwarzkopf]

Casters start off with a full mana bar that never runs out.

My Arcane Mage would disagree with that..... but then again, there is no actual reason for the mage class to exist - so I suppose it is my fault for playing one.

[HardlyWaken]

because you stand still for one second and cast out shit that crits for 3 mill. hunters and melee barely hit the 1m crit marker. it's balanced your spells hit harder to compensate for movement.

Clearly, all casters are doing 3x damage of hunters on patchwork fights. x.X

[Wildtree]

Why have casters 1 - 3 mio crit hits but hunters don't?

Why have hunters been changed for melee range? Because the old way fucked up raid encounters frequently.... Everyone STACK right at the boss. Works fine. Except the hunters stand there now, doing nothing cause they had to be at a minimum range.
From a rather logical standpoint, the minimum range never made sense. You can fire your weapon from 20 yrd as good as from 1 yrd distance.
For a more personal taste. I did actually like the old mechanics a lot better. Having to find a safe spot where you could stand in max range, with every second not moving increasing the dmg output, I loved it.

[kelnoctis]

Hunter's deal physical damage with some magical effects to their spells.
Casters are pure casters, who deal magical damage.

Most hunter shots are also instant casts. No point limiting some of a hunters weakest shots to be no-movement. Cobra shot/steady and aimed are the only things that are actually 'casted'.. so why would hunters be limited to no movement? :S

[Dasani]

Because hunters have ALWAYS been designed this way.

Always. In vanilla they could do everything while moving except aimed shot.
In TBC when they introduced steadyshot, they couldn't do it while moving but were given Aspect of the Fox to let them do that shit while moving, so they could toggle back n forth to always be mobile while ranged.
So on and so on.

They have always been able to do their shit while moving, it's how they were designed from the very beginning.

Casters have not been this way. THey used to have to actually stand still and cast, and that is the way it SHOULD be. However as casuals became more common place and the game got dumbed down more and more, casters were given more and more abilities they could use while moving and buffs to the abilities they could use while moving making it almost no DPS loss for movement. It took all the skill out of playing one.

I think the straw that broke the camel's back though was Kiljaeden's Cunning. Being able to cast EVERYTHING while moving I think made them realize just how incredibly silly such a design was. Even after it got nerfed to not be usable with chaos bolt, it was still insanely powerful and once again no DPS loss for movement.

These changes are good for the game overall. They are just taking away some of the crap they gave casters to make life easier on them. Hunters however were never designed to be stationary unless you were marks. There is also a talent choice for your largest focus regen move to need you to be stationary to cast and that'll most likely end up being the best DPS talent for hunters to take and also the highest skill ceiling. So all in all, its kay.

[Pengalor]

It is unique and more interesting.
It is Rogue stealth +Immunity to ranged attacks, +Able to use traps, +Able to use flare; an anti stealth ability, +Passive Healing in WoD
-Speed.

How exactly is that unquestionably worse? The speed is absolutely outweighed by the benefits.

And even if it were "worse" than stealth, it doesn't change the fact that it's the defining mechanic of rogues (and ferals who are based on rogues) and was given over to hunters. It is akin to rogues in WoD being able to tame beasts out in the world, but they do X% less damage than hunter pets.

Is that fine?

Immunity to ranged attacks? Sure, though rogues might as well have that since the only time you'll be seeing them is when they get anywhere near you within melee range, the difference is most likely to make up for the fact that hunters are ranged. Traps I covered above, rogues can use things like Sap so it's really not that different. Ability to use flare....ok? We would move massively slower and flare would give away our position so not sure what the issue is there but sure, we can cast flare. Passive healing has been discussed.

Your comparison is also nonsense. It's more like rogues being given ranged physical attacks. Oh wait, they did get ranged physical attacks. Plenty of classes also get pets/guardians, they just don't get to tame them (frost mages, warlocks, etc).

[HardlyWaken]

Hunter's deal physical damage with some magical effects to their spells.
Casters are pure casters, who deal magical damage.

Most hunter shots are also instant casts. No point limiting some of a hunters weakest shots to be no-movement. Cobra shot/steady and aimed are the only things that are actually 'casted'.. so why would hunters be limited to no movement? :S

To be fair, I'm not advocating less movement for hunters (except in some cases, I do think "steady" shot and "aimed" shot should hit harder and be immobile, but whatever). I'm more advocating for the casters to not lose the little mobility they already have. It has already been demonstrated that without it in WOD pvp is problematic against melee/hunters. Hunters could still have the mobility ranged niche without being the only ranged who can move while dealing ranged DPS ever.

[cFortyfive]

Because it's Blizzard.

Qft.
The thing keeping hunters from being entirely retarded this addon them being not tuned as high as warlocks were and having no raid support.

I main a Warlock and yes I do plenty of damage.

Sorry can't take anyone serious who has complains pve wise as a warlock this addon.

[Polarthief]

Try using a bow, crossbow, or gun while running around IRL; see how well it goes for you.

It should apply to Hunters, too. I see no point to them getting a pass on this just for being physical-based. They also can't be interrupted because they're not casting spells; they can't have a double standard of being ranged not melee AND being uninterruptable, mobile, non-casters.

- - - Updated - - -

Qft.
The thing keeping hunters from being entirely retarded this addon them being not tuned as high as warlocks were and having no raid support.

Mages say hi for MoP.

[Packing an i5]

because frost mages are already super OP do you really need them to be more mobile?

[Wildtree]

Casters have not been this way. THey used to have to actually stand still and cast, and that is the way it SHOULD be. However as casuals became more common place and the game got dumbed down more and more, casters were given more and more abilities they could use while moving and buffs to the abilities they could use while moving making it almost no DPS loss for movement. It took all the skill out of playing one.

you contradict yourself here...
The raid encounters of today have a lot more movement requirements than the ones from the past. Giving classes mobility opens for possibilities on the development side to have much more interactive boss fights.
The old encounters were pretty much, find your safe spot, and never move anymore until the boss tumbles over dead.

[cFortyfive]

Mages say hi for MoP.

Well mages didn't have it that well this addon except towards the end of tot I guess and of course now.

[HardlyWaken]

because frost mages are already super OP do you really need them to be more mobile?

Well, considering this is more about the CUT of EXISTING mobile casting, that wouldn't be an issue. I'm defending Lightning Bolt and Fel Flame more than I'm advocating for more mobility. I'd also like to see melee mobility toned down a bit in some areas.

[Asiel]

Let me just ask you, how fun IS having 0 mobility? Hunters would still have their full-ranged niche even when casters had light-weight filler dps while moving.

You get used to it when you don't have it in the first place. Stutter casting and timing your abilities really start to shine when you can't spam a filler on the move. Your filler becomes a commodity that you get more of with better skill and forethought.

oh do you mean the beast cleave of bm, or the serpent spread of surv, ya there aoe sucks...................................

Do you mean on Live or on Beta? They're very different. If you're talking about Live then it doesn't apply in a WoD situation.

[bryroo]

Hunters need hand holding.

[Asiel]

Yeah.
This is my problem with that line of reasoning.

Why do other ranged classes have to suffer to maintain Hunter "uniqueness" when Hunters were given more interesting versions of Rogue defining mechanics like Stealth and Poisons?

By "interesting" do you also mean "weaker"? In most cases, they are. Serpent Sting might be the only one that I can think of that's actually superior - but in WoD the only spec that will have that is dependent on its damage for the playstyle since it's more heavily DoT-focused.

[Hitei]

Immunity to ranged attacks? Sure, though rogues might as well have that since the only time you'll be seeing them is when they get anywhere near you within melee range, the difference is most likely to make up for the fact that hunters are ranged. Traps I covered above, rogues can use things like Sap so it's really not that different. Ability to use flare....ok? We would move massively slower and flare would give away our position so not sure what the issue is there but sure, we can cast flare. Passive healing has been discussed.

Your comparison is also nonsense. It's more like rogues being given ranged physical attacks. Oh wait, they did get ranged physical attacks. Plenty of classes also get pets/guardians, they just don't get to tame them (frost mages, warlocks, etc).

Flare doesn't give away your position, when used in camo, and can be placed anywhere. And Sap is akin to Frost trap. That doesn't cover the other two traps you can place. Ranged immunity means that Hunters are immune to sap, and it means that if you see them as they are moving past you but they are out of range, you cannot tap them, as opposed to rogue stealth which can be broken with any instant cast ranged damage in the game.

And AGAIN the point was not balancing, it was that Hunters are able to use the PRIMARY MECHANIC of Rogues.

It is absolutely nothing like ranged physical attacks. Rogues and Warriors have always had ranged physical attacks (read: Thrown). Stealth IS Rogues. It is the entire concept around which the class is based, it is the primary unique mechanic we had, our niche. That, and poisons.

Hunter's are beast pets and archery. That is what defines them. So I gave a comparison that was completely logical. Hunters getting the primary thing that makes a rogue; a rogue--is like Rogues getting one of the two primary things that makes a hunter; a hunter. It's not about the summoned pet, it's about being able to tame beasts in the wild and use them, that's specifically why I phrased it that way. Because very few people who identify as "hunters" would be okay with that, even if the pet did minimal damage.

The same way that no warlock would be fine with mages suddenly being able to summon imps and voidwalkers, and no shaman would be fine with druids suddenly getting the ability to put down all sorts of elemental totems.

By "interesting" do you also mean "weaker"? In most cases, they are. Serpent Sting might be the only one that I can think of that's actually superior - but in WoD the only spec that will have that is dependent on its damage for the playstyle since it's more heavily DoT-focused.

I was referring to exotic munitions when I made the poison comment. Not serpent sting.

[Dasani]

you contradict yourself here...
The raid encounters of today have a lot more movement requirements than the ones from the past. Giving classes mobility opens for possibilities on the development side to have much more interactive boss fights.
The old encounters were pretty much, find your safe spot, and never move anymore until the boss tumbles over dead.

Wow. I must be going senile then because I clearly remember a LOT of movement in boss fights of yesteryear. A'lar, movement. Fel reaver, movement. Chick at the other end, i seem to recall some movement there as well, and of course on kael'thas there was movement. Not just running to all different parts of a massive room depending on phase but running from or chasing the kite guy, flying through the air avoiding clouds of shit that will kill you and also positioning yourself as low to the ground as you can get to minimize fall damage but not so low it shoots you back high into the air. Yeah, there was quite a bit of movement on all these fights.

There was the odd fight here and there you didn't have to move much on, and they were certainly more common in vanilla, but casters have been immobile during eras with a lot of boss movement for longer than they've been mobile. Blizzard realized it was a mistake to let them all cast on the move, and it was. It was also a mistake to give them all unlimited mana that requires no thought to manage except if you play piss poor as arcane. Hopefully they revert that change as well and make casters have to actually THINK about what spells they want to cast instead of just hitting the highest damage ones as often as they can.

Nowadays it's all about DPS. It used to be about balancing DPS against efficiency. Casters are already on easystreet, giving them a downside to being ranged is fine. You guys should just buy some kleenex instead of trying to nerf hunters. If you're worried about hunters replacing casters, they won't, because no one gives a shit about hunters because they add nothing to a raid.

I mean hell look at Thok. That fight should be a Hunter's dream fight. They can't be interrupted, they don't suffer from being melee and can dps while chasing him, etc. And they STILL can't beat casters in DPS at the high end. Despite every advantage thrown at them, casters played well still come out on top.