Rogues, World PvP and Vanish....was it always this Frustrating?

[Kahmal]

Now I love World PvP always have the sporadic nature of being attacked out of nowhere and having to react quickly to defend yourself is awesome. The Timeless Isle is very refreshing. I'm not much of a ganker, but I love seeking out retribution kills.

Which leads me to my point, now World PvP has always been a Rogues playground that's nothing new, I just recently came back to WoW so I"m a bit new to MoP but was it always this damn easy for Rogues to reset? What drives me crazy is when a Rogue attacks me only to realize he bite off more then he can chew and can just simply run away. So what we have now is someone who can start a fight on their own terms easily (nothing new) but can eject just as easily, I remember popping a Rogue out of stealth was so much easier. Now by the time your dots tick their miles away since they seem to be permanently sprinting.

This will be incredibly frustrating in WoD if there really is no flying. I mean at least give us better detect invis pots, they can't be used in Arena/BG after all.

[Mihalik]

1, Because Rogue Burst/Stealth combo is severely OP in WPvP.
2, Because Vanish is perhaps the most retarded PvP ability. An unbreakable Stealth escape mechanic that guarantees the Rogue can reset or escape, no matter how badly he fudged things up is simply dumb.

The unbreakable aspect of Vanish needs to be removed. DoT's shouldn't knock the Rogue out of Vanish Stealth, but AoE damage most certainly should. Stealth should be something fragile, not a semi permanent godmode.

A good solution to this problem would be a cheap to make Engineering item that doesn't require Engineering to use.

Let's called it Light Grenade. You throw it on the ground (manually placed, instant cast) that breaks all stealth effects in a 20 or 25 yard radius, on a 60 second cooldown. It wouldn't work in Arenas or Rated Battlegrounds. But it would give people a way to deal with Vanish in World PvP.

[Kahmal]

1, Because Rogue Burst/Stealth combo is severely OP in WPvP.
2, Because Vanish is perhaps the most retarded PvP ability. An unbreakable Stealth escape mechanic that guarantees the Rogue can reset or escape, no matter how badly he fudged things up is simply dumb.

The unbreakable aspect of Vanish needs to be removed. DoT's shouldn't knock the Rogue out of Vanish Stealth, but AoE damage most certainly should. Stealth should be something fragile, not a semi permanent godmode.

A good solution to this problem would be a cheap to make Engineering item that doesn't require Engineering to use.

Let's called it Light Grenade. You throw it on the ground (manually placed, instant cast) that breaks all stealth effects in a 20 or 25 yard radius, on a 60 second cooldown. It wouldn't work in Arenas or Rated Battlegrounds. But it would give people a way to deal with Vanish in World PvP.

AoE used to knock Rogues out of stealth, does it not anymore? I'm sorry I haven't seriously PvP'd since WoTLK. Also Bleeds would take them out also, the problem is in MoP they seem to have a perma movement speed buff so by the time it knocks them out their long gone. Making a Rogue pay for screwing with you wasn't as easy as it is with most classes because of Vanish, but now it seems nearly impossible unless there seriously ganged up on.

[Mihalik]

AoE used to knock Rogues out of stealth, does it not anymore? I'm sorry I haven't seriously PvP'd since WoTLK. Also Bleeds would take them out also, the problem is in MoP they seem to have a perma movement speed buff so by the time it knocks them out their long gone. Making a Rogue pay for screwing with you wasn't as easy as it is with most classes because of Vanish, but now it seems nearly impossible unless there seriously ganged up on.

Vanish gives the Rogue a 3 second Stealth immunity to all harmful effects, also breaks all movement impairing effects. That combined with their movement speed buff, it guarantees that they'll be out of combat and far away before you could damage them again.

[mallorea36]

Vanish gives the Rogue a 3 second Stealth immunity to all harmful effects, also breaks all movement impairing effects. That combined with their movement speed buff, it guarantees that they'll be out of combat and far away before you could damage them again.

It gives 3 seconds of stealth, then between 0 and 1 seconds of stealth before dots tick, and then 3 seconds of subterfuge.

In PvP I find myself using it either to break roots or to get a garrote or a cheap shot or two off. Vanish would be useless if it broke when you took aoe damage, I could vanish and then immediately be broken out of it by rain of fire, thunderclap, rushing jade win, mind sear, divine storm, FoK, Frost bomb/freeze/pet freeze/cone of cold/blizzard, death and decay, etc. You can't break a bubble, iceblock, disarm, remove die by the sword, might of ursoc, dispersion, etc., by simply casting an aoe damaging ability. If you have a dot on the rogue that can't be broken by cloak of shadows, and there are a lot, then they'll be out in 7 seconds or less.

Keep in mind this thing acts as an offensive and defensive cooldown and has a 2 minute CD, if you play incorrectly and you end up without a vanish when you're getting trained because you used it to CC or do damage then you're screwed.

Vanish is far from god mode and provides much more counterplay because of the fact that stealths breaks from damage than things like bladestorm.

[Kahmal]

It gives 3 seconds of stealth, then between 0 and 1 seconds of stealth before dots tick, and then 3 seconds of subterfuge.

In PvP I find myself using it either to break roots or to get a garrote or a cheap shot or two off. Vanish would be useless if it broke when you took aoe damage, I could vanish and then immediately be broken out of it by rain of fire, thunderclap, rushing jade win, mind sear, divine storm, FoK, Frost bomb/freeze/pet freeze/cone of cold/blizzard, death and decay, etc. You can't break a bubble, iceblock, disarm, remove die by the sword, might of ursoc, dispersion, etc., by simply casting an aoe damaging ability. If you have a dot on the rogue that can't be broken by cloak of shadows, and there are a lot, then they'll be out in 7 seconds or less.

Keep in mind this thing acts as an offensive and defensive cooldown and has a 2 minute CD, if you play incorrectly and you end up without a vanish when you're getting trained because you used it to CC or do damage then you're screwed.

Vanish is far from god mode and provides much more counterplay because of the fact that stealths breaks from damage than things like bladestorm.

They can Prep and get Vanish back can't they?

Regardless Rogues are no problem in a controlled environment. If anything I used to think they would be a very frustrating class to play since they can get screwed hard if their opener is somehow interrupted, like getting popped out of stealth.
It's the total freedom they have in World PvP and the havoc they will reek in WoD assuming their will be no flying that I'm worried about. In a Duel or in Arena the fight must end one way or another if a Rogue can reset and kill you then you were out played. If they reset and die anyway you did something right. A duel or an arena match must have a decisive victor.

World PvP you have the option to just flee, something many classes can do, but Rogues can do it like no other, trying to finish off a Rogue is extremely frustrating, they have so many tools that allow them to get away or even reset when their friends arrive. Speaking of running away....these guys like impossible to get away from also now, I've had more luck running from hunters.

So as always they're the best ganking facilitators but nearly impossible to finish off if things go south for them. All I'm asking if for some tools that gank hunters such as myself can equip themselves with such as potions or engineering crap like the other guy mentioned so we can actually punish these deviants.

Lol right now these guys remind me of Lee Sin in LoL amazing invader, but when you try to punish him for it he just "lol ward hop over wall." I guess this is where my frustrating is coming from lol.

[Deleted]

In world pvp, a rogue can't lose a fight.
He either wins, or he stealths away and it ends in a draw.

In WoD, be prepared to be camped by rogues 24/7 in quest area's untill you throw your pc out of the window :P

[Anium]

Being able to pick your fights is what rogue is about and has always been about. If you don't like it, roll rogue ^^
Nothing is wrong with vanish, being able to be cc'd right when you pop it, well it would render vanish useless.

[Mihalik]

In world pvp, a rogue can't lose a fight.
He either wins, or he stealths away and it ends in a draw.

In WoD, be prepared to be camped by rogues 24/7 in quest area's untill you throw your pc out of the window :P

That's why I am rerolling Rogue. Profit.

- - - Updated - - -

Being able to pick your fights is what rogue is about and has always been about. If you don't like it, roll rogue ^^
Nothing is wrong with vanish, being able to be cc'd right when you pop it, well it would render vanish useless.

Being able to pick your fights is a byproduct of the stealth factor. Paying no consequence for picking the wrong fight is the broken part. As it has been said before, in a controlled environment it's moot point. In World PvP it's just broken.

[Kahmal]

Being able to pick your fights is a byproduct of the stealth factor. Paying no consequence for picking the wrong fight is the broken part. As it has been said before, in a controlled environment it's moot point. In World PvP it's just broken.

I remember being able to kill Rogues at least 50% of the time though in other expansions. Now it feels like 95% what changed in MoP or was it Cata? They seem to be forever sprinting now, which is the real problem for me I think. When a dot takes them out of Vanish their miles away.

[Henako]

Back in my day, vanish didn't work. So.. no.

Vanish would be useless if it broke when you took aoe damage

We just had to vanish intelligently, and time it between dot ticks to re-open.

[Deleted]

Cows go moo, dogs go woof, rogues flee when they can't win. Nothing new under the sun here, really. But does it really matter? I mean, in organized PvP you fight for honor points mostly, in world PvP you fight for fun and skill displays. If a rogue runs off, you beat him. Or rather, he was too weak to beat you, that makes you the victor, right? I'd take chasing a single rogue off any day than defeating RandomBob#429 in honorable combat. Not only did you defeat a class DESIGNED to pick their battles (and proved that he picked wrong) but you sent another player cowering with their tail between their legs, yeah?

How's that not more epic than "You have killed RandomBob#2912, here's 10 honor points"? =)

[itachie]

I normally don't respond to these sort of things because it's an mmo. There will always be a bit of unbalance in it. Although I've played a rogue since vanilla and yes through out the years they have an edge here or there,but what I find even odd is that you can have a warlock spam fear/stun and have their pet cc you and have you dead within 1-2 chaos bolts,have over a million hp and 1 shot with ease. A ret pally in timeless who is 560 ilvl+ can cremate anyone due to the pve healing they have from eternal flame or the fact that their healing is not nerfed in wpvp as it is in arena/bg. You have a hunter who has camouflage, 2 deterrence, flares, stampede as well as multiple cc/stun through their traps and pets. You have a druid who is able to crit heal over a million as boomkin and move just as fast a rogue can,but a rogue can not go in bear form and medigate dmg. Moral to it. Yes, rogues have movement speeds and vanish,but there are so many other OP classes that if you get hit even 1 time as a rogue your fucked. You complain saying that we are too OP. Well I'll gladly accept the removing some of our abilities if a lock has no more gates,can only fear 1 time,pet cant cc in any way. A hunter can no longer use stampede,trap, or other various abilities. Although it would be bad if other classes got nerfed.. The thing is you have to be a pretty good rogue to be able to fuck someone over. Who cares if the rogue leaves, that means you win. Although I'd love to see some of you do as I can do and kill a warlock with a million hp in less than 4 seconds flat. Well of course Im going to vanish, because what a good rogue can do is pretty fucking epic in my eyes. So instead of QQing about how OP rogues are. How about you sit there and realize how much OP other classes like WW monks are and how they can paralysis you, leg sweep and have you dead just by using fof asap after the leg sweep. Come on now, everyone has their own moments. Although it actually takes skill to be a good rogue. Unlike locks, warriors and hunters who are naturally OP w/o even the slightest effort and ya damn right I'm going to gank everyone in WoD I can. Just because I'm able to.

[Deleted]

The problem with current stealth tools in the rogue's arsenal extends to arena as well: I was watching cdew doing 2v2 vs a boomy/rogue, and due subterfuge the rogue could keep cheap shotting him, and by the time he came out of stealth, he was already on the other side of the map (tol viron arena). The fact that cloak doesn't work like DK ams, but it also superior to it in the sense that it removes dots and has a low cooldown also adds to this annoying aspect of vanish. By last, root effects DR and up making the rogue immune to them, at which point Burst of Speed can prevent anyone from catching the rogue.

And please, don't come with the argument "if you don't like it, roll a rogue": just because an ability is iconic doesn't mean it's not too strong.

[Deleted]

If your class doesn't use bleeds don't even bother trying to catch rogues.

[Anium]

And please, don't come with the argument "if you don't like it, roll a rogue": just because an ability is iconic doesn't mean it's not too strong.

Oh, but i did come out with that. Not arguing it's not strong, but what fucking main class abilities aren't "strong". If a rogue was unable to use vanish in an attempt to go toe to toe in an all out brawl, he would lose, no shit (especially in the current pvp climate, with just about everything hitting like a rock). Having face aggro is not a rogues friend.

I think you all just need to cool it, rogue expansion coming up so you've got plenty more to whine about

[Terahertz]

What's so retarded about rogues in wPvP is the sheer amount of absolutely (...)-proof abilities they have with which it is literally impossible to catch a rogue off guard.

Vanish isn't even the main problem. The main problem lies with Subterfuge as well as Burst of Speed. Subterfuge allows them to stay in stealth for 6 seconds without worries plus burst of speed, which means by the time he IS out of stealth, he's already on the other side of the world.

Now, last I seen Subterfuge is being nerfed in WoD (little bit late with that, blizz) so it no longer gives stealth, but instead only allows stealth abilities for 3 seconds after stealth breaks, but the problem with Vanish and Burst of Speed still persists because blizzard thinks burst of speed is balanced (lel).

[Knslyr]

I remember being able to kill Rogues at least 50% of the time though in other expansions. Now it feels like 95% what changed in MoP or was it Cata? They seem to be forever sprinting now, which is the real problem for me I think. When a dot takes them out of Vanish their miles away.

Rogues always sprinting now is a product of the Ranged/Melee arms race. It started with mages getting blink and freeze and have quickly blown out of control. Thats why warriors can charge 2 times in a row, heroic leap, intercept. And if they still end up behind they can cover themself with Spell Reflect followed by Mass Spell Reflect. Or throw a ranged stun at their targets. Its not really only rogues that got insane stuff like that.

[Deleted]

The problem is, Rogues need those tools in competetive PvP where it matters. Breaking them for a kind of PvP that very few people partake in and which is rarely if ever fair anyway, is pointless.

[Srg56]

Now I love World PvP always have the sporadic nature of being attacked out of nowhere and having to react quickly to defend yourself is awesome. The Timeless Isle is very refreshing. I'm not much of a ganker, but I love seeking out retribution kills.

Which leads me to my point, now World PvP has always been a Rogues playground that's nothing new, I just recently came back to WoW so I"m a bit new to MoP but was it always this damn easy for Rogues to reset? What drives me crazy is when a Rogue attacks me only to realize he bite off more then he can chew and can just simply run away. So what we have now is someone who can start a fight on their own terms easily (nothing new) but can eject just as easily, I remember popping a Rogue out of stealth was so much easier. Now by the time your dots tick their miles away since they seem to be permanently sprinting.

This will be incredibly frustrating in WoD if there really is no flying. I mean at least give us better detect invis pots, they can't be used in Arena/BG after all.

To answer your title, no. Vanishing used to require skill, positioning and timing, same goes with stealth. When you were moving at 70% or even 60% of normal speed in stealth, you had to anticipate movements and position yourself accordingly. Being literally invisible used to have a cost associated with it. And don't give me the BS spiel about "it's not really invisibility blablabla". If you have two brain cells to rub together, you won't be seen or caught, ever. It IS godmode invisibility. But i digress.

Stealth used to mean invisibility PLUS a disadvantage in the form of positional requirements for openers. That is no more, thanks to whoever thought giving rogues 100% speed + burst of speed, giving vanish a 3 second (5 second glyphed) blanket protection from stealth breakers and on top of that, the subterfuge talent, which adds 3 more seconds of guaranteed stealth.

This changes an environment in which rogues already had the upper hand in the form of the element of surprise and getting to pick your battles from a one sided battle to a guaranteed win in 1v1 and sometimes in 1v2 scenarios as well.

You can blame the addition of cloak of shadows in TBC which allows rogues to ignore spell DoTs as well, but the biggest culprits are the buff to vanish and the removal of the stealth speed penalty. You don't need any proficiency in playing the class, I.E. getting your openers when you can move faster in stealth than others can run and you don't need to plan for the fight if you can just get another opener because you can ignore any DoT effects that are affecting you. Subterfuge is getting fixed in WoD if i recall correctly.


Edit: All things said, that doesn't mean very good rogues still didn't trash you around effortlessly, it just means that they were few and far between, while the rest didn't time their vanishes accordingly and got mauled. I mean for frucks sake, does anyone remember a time when you had to time your positioning, vanish and stealth, to coincide with DoT ticks in order to get another opener or a sap? Holy crap has the skill ceiling for rogues just plummeted over the years.