[6.0 Guide] Fury - "I just spent 10 seconds mastering Arms, now what?"

[Accendor]

To be honest: The difference in the playstyle of furor if you got the 2p bonus from T17 is so big that I can not imagine to play that class again without it. They use The T-Sets to fix broken concepts (or at least try it).
Without the bonus I just end up doing nothing for 50% of the fight. Sure, DPS is still fine, but it is so fucking boring to play.

[Archimtiros]

To be honest: The difference in the playstyle of furor if you got the 2p bonus from T17 is so big that I can not imagine to play that class again without it. They use The T-Sets to fix broken concepts (or at least try it).
Without the bonus I just end up doing nothing for 50% of the fight. Sure, DPS is still fine, but it is so fucking boring to play.

Really? I find the 2p pretty underwhelming for single target, either it never procs when you want or chain procs 8 times in a row when you don't! For AoE it is pretty great however.

[Deleted]

2P is godsent when reck + lust and if you've sacrificied at least one gnome to RNGod before raiding.
Otherwise it's just one of those infamous layers we warriors love so much <3

[ridonc]

Really? I find the 2p pretty underwhelming for single target, either it never procs when you want or chain procs 8 times in a row when you don't! For AoE it is pretty great however.

I'm above and beyond sick of the RNG this expansion, 7.0 please!

[Artunias]

The rng is really starting to piss me off too. Last night on Gruul for instance, had essentially no SD procs when horn was up. No horn procs during execute phase. No bloodsurge procs when I could have actually used them.

It's so fucking infuriating when you just get plowed in the ass by the game. I hate it.

[Fenrkyr]

The rng is really starting to piss me off too. Last night on Gruul for instance, had essentially no SD procs when horn was up. No horn procs during execute phase. No bloodsurge procs when I could have actually used them.

It's so fucking infuriating when you just get plowed in the ass by the game. I hate it.

I can see how it would be frustrating, but I'm coming from the other side of the equation. I just main swapped from a frost DK (yes, get your laughing out of the way first) and they are boring to play because there is nothing to react to. The spec does have 2 procs, but neither are important and you can pretty much ignore them and everything turns out the same. Yeah fury probably has too much RNG, but not having any RNG at all can be bad as well.

[Artunias]

I can see how it would be frustrating, but I'm coming from the other side of the equation. I just main swapped from a frost DK (yes, get your laughing out of the way first) and they are boring to play because there is nothing to react to. The spec does have 2 procs, but neither are important and you can pretty much ignore them and everything turns out the same. Yeah fury probably has too much RNG, but not having any RNG at all can be bad as well.

True, DK is insanely boring, frost anyway.

I'm not asking for zero RNG, I don't think any of us are. There is just so many damn layers of RNG when it comes to fury. Although I do think the trinket design next tier helps that a lot.

[Archimtiros]

Thing is, RNG/Procs/whatever you want to call them can be fun, and are even good to have in a spec. Look at Arms. It's a very basic playstyle with few abilities and very little interaction and most people dislike it. Simply adding MS and CS resets is generating a ton of new interest in the spec on the PTR even though it really makes the spec even simpler, almost cutting out Whirlwind entirely.

Procs add variance and they keep your attention. Ideally they should be a feel good moment, and I think Sudden Death does this fairly well, as does Ret Paladin with it's numerous procs. However, you need a balance of both worlds. You can't have an entire rotation built on randomness because it just doesn't work with stability factors such as Rage and Enrage.

In short: A rotation needs to be solid enough to function on it's own, and procs should feel like a rewarding bonus, not something you must have to allow you to continue the rotation.

[Warriorsarri]

You say adding the CS/MS reset for Arms makes it interesting, I say it just makes a broken concept worse, it's just frustrating, makes handling rage and rend super annoying.

[Archimtiros]

You say adding the CS/MS reset for Arms makes it interesting, I say it just makes a broken concept worse, it's just frustrating, makes handling rage and rend super annoying.

Haha, I said it generated new interest, not that the spec was more interesting. Point being that as a whole, people enjoy procs, resets and other things that change up their rotation.

[Huntindawg]

I'm curious how the Legendary Ring will affect our choice of taking Heroic Tier 18 or not. The Legendary Ring is on a 2 minute cooldown. With Anger Management and T17 we're generally around a 2minute 15 second Recklessness cooldown plus or minus 5 seconds. With T18 Recklessness is a 1 minute cooldown from my testing.


Would being able to line up Recklessness with every use of the Legendary ring be enough of a boost to make us want T18 Heroic over T17 Mythic?

[Archimtiros]

I'm curious how the Legendary Ring will affect our choice of taking Heroic Tier 18 or not. The Legendary Ring is on a 2 minute cooldown. With Anger Management and T17 we're generally around a 2minute 15 second Recklessness cooldown plus or minus 5 seconds. With T18 Recklessness is a 1 minute cooldown from my testing.


Would being able to line up Recklessness with every use of the Legendary ring be enough of a boost to make us want T18 Heroic over T17 Mythic?

You can line it up with every use pretty consistently. The increased ilvl next tier makes it even more likely to align, and even if you didn't, it wouldn't be a large push to get your raid to delay the ring by 10 or so seconds, that wouldn't cost you a use or anything.

Thing is, weak cooldown is weak cooldown. Keep in mind that T17 fueled Reck is actually better than T18 with the ring because of the way it's affect stacks with the extra 25% damage boost.

This was my first simulation without the Legendary Ring (using archmages instead)


And here is the current simulation which does use the Legendary


As you can see, adding the Legendary ring actually makes T17 better, going from about a 3k difference to a <1k difference. Like we've been saying, T18 is just underwhelmingly bad, to the point where it isn't even worth taking the tier tokens from someone else.

During farm, when we might have the ability to use excess tokens to roll for Warforged or socket the gap might widen somewhat, but even then T18 is only good for pure single target. As soon as you have a second target, you'll stop using it and go back to T17, making the whole set pretty worthless.

[Huntindawg]

Pretty much what I was thinking. It's pretty sad that we'll be using tier with 19-25ilvl loss for a dps increase. If they'd change it to work with Raging Blow it may be worth it to pick up.

[Archimtiros]

Pretty much what I was thinking. It's pretty sad that we'll be using tier with 19-25ilvl loss for a dps increase. If they'd change it to work with Raging Blow it may be worth it to pick up.

Better to just make it work with Whirlwind, would require a lot less adjustments. Still the bonus would be incredibly underwhelming and probably not worth using, but at least it would be useful on AoE for players who don't have access to M T17. As is, those will be the only players using it.

I second guessed myself with talent setup, those tests were all done using Avatar + AM, so I reran thinking maybe Siegebreaker would be better since Reck is already getting reduced so much.



Nope, seems like it's still better to reduce other cooldowns than to add in Siegebreaker, though they are all so close it really doesn't matter.

- - - Updated - - -

And just to be safe I reran Fury too. I did all of these before but wanted to make sure that some small change, like adding the Legendary ring, wouldn't have unforeseen consequences.

[Crisius]

The thought of sticking with T17 4-set for mythic progression next tier is seriously demotivating me to the point where I'm asking myself if I can really be arsed.

Even if they nerf T17 to make T18 the obvious choice we'll be stuck last in line with the worst setbonus of all and nothing to look forward to. Buffing the numbers on it won't do it any good and the patch being in the background downloader tells me they've no intent on mechanical changes.

[nativity]

The thought of sticking with T17 4-set for mythic progression next tier is seriously demotivating me to the point where I'm asking myself if I can really be arsed.

Even if they nerf T17 to make T18 the obvious choice we'll be stuck last in line with the worst setbonus of all and nothing to look forward to. Buffing the numbers on it won't do it any good and the patch being in the background downloader tells me they've no intent on mechanical changes.

Might have some hope considering that the current PTR isn't RC yet..

[Archimtiros]

There is no reason to nerf T17 because it's strength isn't caused by positive interaction with anything in 6.2, it's just entirely better than T18.

With Arms it made sense, they had to either change T17 or change the trinket. It wasn't that T18 compared to T17 was terrible, T17 just worked out a whole lot better and the interaction made the spec more powerful than intended. With Fury however, T18 is just straight up underwhelming. We've already had a number of conversations on the matter, and hopefully they'll realize the mistake. If not, we make do and it'll get noticed when the majority of mythic raiders continue to use T17.

- - - Updated - - -

Since we are talking about shit, here are trinket combinations:



I didn't bother to include other Str combinations since they just get worse. Best combination for AoE is Haste + Cleave, best for Single Target is Haste + DoT, but Haste + Cleave is close enough for ST that you don't have to feel bad about using it. Based on RNG it could even come out to be better from pull to pull, but on average it is only slightly weaker. The only one you should avoid is Str if at all possible.

Honestly, they should nerf the Cleave trinkets single target potential. Unfortunately I can't think of an easy way to do that without also nerfing it's multi-target.

[nenwavriana]

There is no reason to nerf T17 because it's strength isn't caused by positive interaction with anything in 6.2, it's just entirely better than T18.

With Arms it made sense, they had to either change T17 or change the trinket. It wasn't that T18 compared to T17 was terrible, T17 just worked out a whole lot better and the interaction made the spec more powerful than intended. With Fury however, T18 is just straight up underwhelming. We've already had a number of conversations on the matter, and hopefully they'll realize the mistake. If not, we make do and it'll get noticed when the majority of mythic raiders continue to use T17.

If the item level fiasco is any indication they'll just write another watercooler that says "we see you've given us a lot of negative feedback about this, we're going to do it anyway kthx"

[rashy]

Better to just make it work with Whirlwind, would require a lot less adjustments.

I don't want to WW on single target as much as I don't want to WS on cleave. This doesn't fix anything, it just shifts the shit around. WW isn't any closer to being the same as WS is than RB is, so the adjustments that would need to be done wouldn't bigger or any more difficult than if it were RB.

[amarathy]

I don't want to WW on single target as much as I don't want to WS on cleave. This doesn't fix anything, it just shifts the shit around. WW isn't any closer to being the same as WS is than RB is, so the adjustments that would need to be done wouldn't bigger or any more difficult than if it were RB.

He's implying that that it works on both WS and WW. RB would be cool but would need to be severally toned down in the CDR component. Just imagine hitting 5 targets with RB, each giving 2 strikes at 60% crit rate with Reck. It'll pretty much instantly reset after the second RB.