[Prot] WoD/Legion Alpha Discussion

[Sepelio]

That feel when watching slootbag stream on his paladin and hes running DP>HA, why do the most publicly noted prot paladin players have to be fucking retarded >.<

[Sepelio]

If he didn't have the ring i'd think running dp was less retarded, but seeing as he does.

[Sepelio]

I can understand it from a "Smoothing" perspective, but the argument of it being optimal on anything, even including archimonde is a pretty big stretch, as spikey as archimondes damage can be, there is quite literally not a single point prior to phase 3 where he swings more than 6 times without doing a cast, which you can blanket entirely with sotr regardless of having HA up, not to mention the output gain from HA with ring vs DP.

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I guess realistically i break it down as optimal > viable, from a survivability perspective during prog you could just run WuE/HS and be unkillable without any real issue on basically every encounter, from a dps standpoint the ring and HA will always be better, for the same reason SW got shafted on its DPS talent spot.

[Won7on]

Mythic Iskar. The fight is an actual joke tank wise, so I'm wondering about DPS parses, a.k.a. padding. I'm with a Brewmaster and he goes pad-happy with the Soul Cap + spinners. I tried the Fel Cleave trinket but it does fuck all (less than 5% of my damage). LoV won't ever proc because he has aggro on everything because of the aforementioned soul cap + spinners. He ends the fight 14k higher than me. Is there anything I can do in this situation to not be as shitty on the damage meters?

[celinamuna]

Mythic Iskar. The fight is an actual joke tank wise, so I'm wondering about DPS parses, a.k.a. padding. I'm with a Brewmaster and he goes pad-happy with the Soul Cap + spinners. I tried the Fel Cleave trinket but it does fuck all (less than 5% of my damage). LoV won't ever proc because he has aggro on everything because of the aforementioned soul cap + spinners. He ends the fight 14k higher than me. Is there anything I can do in this situation to not be as shitty on the damage meters?

Hand of Salvation.

[Won7on]

Hand of Salvation.

I knew this would be the first answer. :P

But for real, outside of BoP-ing our co-tank to get more LoV/GC procs, is there anything we can do to get more damage out? I have pretty much every HFC Strength trinket.

Overall, I'm really starting to hate LoV as a trinket... in BRF I almost always got orange DPS rankings because I know how to play my fucking class and do a good rotation. Now it's all about cheesing this piece of shit trinket. It's like SoO all over again, where your rotation meant shit all and it was all about Vengeance whoring, except now it's about whoring incoming damage, and asking your healers to stop healing you so it procs more often.

[Jellospally]

use a cancel aura macro for absorbs and hots. You dont have to tell them to stop healing you.

Also /sit is amazing too.

[celinamuna]

Overall, I'm really starting to hate LoV as a trinket... in BRF I almost always got orange DPS rankings because I know how to play my fucking class and do a good rotation. Now it's all about cheesing this piece of shit trinket. It's like SoO all over again, where your rotation meant shit all and it was all about Vengeance whoring, except now it's about whoring incoming damage, and asking your healers to stop healing you so it procs more often.

It's actually worse than SoO.

And there's nothing wrong with using hand of salv (not prot) as it doesn't affect him negatively.

[Won7on]

use a cancel aura macro for absorbs and hots. You dont have to tell them to stop healing you.

Also /sit is amazing too.

I know there are ways to cheese it... that's exactly what I'm annoyed about. It's not about being skilled at your class, it's about dumb macros and figuring out how to best cheese a mechanic that shouldn't have existed in the first place anyway. I don't enjoy that kind of gameplay.

[Jellospally]

idk its just another thing u do to do more dmg. look at icd on trinket and cancel absorbs or also sit if its a stupid easy fight.

Had to watch swing timers in siege and land SoR right on melee hit for triple veng from that swing. Just something you do.

[Accurate]

Had to watch swing timers in siege and land SoR right on melee hit for triple veng from that swing. Just something you do.

I miss those days as that bug was pretty fun to do. But then again I've been considering playing paladin again for farm as DK just feels lame for parsing (do 90k on komrok and get r1 then look at logs and see prot doing 160k np) but gearing just sounds awful to do.

[Jellospally]

How to rank on Pally: sit 3 times on kormrok 70% of dmg is trinket = lol.

Idk gearing isnt that bad when you actually like playing said class.

[Accurate]

Prot pala is just a spoiled spec atm, dks have been way better for progression this expansion compared to any other class.

You can't compare instant burst to stable continuous AoE either.

I never said DK is bad for progression. I remember posting here multiple times through progression(and in beta) before I swapped off my paladin, saying DK is probably the strongest progression tank this xpac assuming you know what you're doing. Was purely talking farm in HFC as DK atm isn't top tier dps by any means in comparison to prot paladin, which is the only thing I feel you can really care about after progression is done, and you're just trying to do as much as you can to kill bosses quicker each week.

In any case another issue with gearing is the guild I'm in is in the process of trying to recruit a 2nd tank for legion (co-tank wants to go casual) and most of the apps we've got so far are super undergeared from 5/13M guilds so I doubt I'd be able to even get much on an alt. That with fact they haven't killed a lot of these bosses and being on a 701 ilvl paladin wouldn't exactly go well if they mess up and it turns into a solo tank situation on a harder hitting one.

I'm sure when things get situated I'll probably mess around with it though and see if I can compete again with you guys lol.

[Accurate]

I never said that you said that, was just stupid comparing instant aoe to stable aoe.

Yea, fair enough just frustrating at times as I'm sure you'd agree seeing how silly that trinket is on a fight like that lol.

[Fusoya]

I'm too much of a dickhead to go on that show and answer way too simple questions anyway.

Nah, I pretty much cba to be honest.

Because FinalBossTV is the "Bay and His Butt-Buddies" show. I have precious little respect for the quality of the usual invitees, with a few notable exceptions.

Essentially I have no interest in participating in a show where I can neither expect the host nor anyone invited to know what they're talking about.

Man I love checking into this thread. PJSalt, boys.

FinalBoss isn't exactly a treasure trove of information and Bay is a mediocre host on his best day. Still, I enjoy watching the tank-focused episodes to see what people think, even if I don't always agree with their perspective or analysis.

It's probably not a coincidence that the Paladins in consideration don't post here.

[Proof]

DP isn't bad at all

My 2c on HA v DP

Before T18 4pc the conventional wisdom was:

1) DP is believed to have a slight edge in terms of resource generation (Averaging 33% compared to 30% extra HoPo from HA)
2) Being passive, DP requires no management other than preventing resource capping.
3) By the same token, it cannot be utilized as a defensive cd, nor reliably stacked with offensive cds. But it does provide a respectable amount of smoothing by increasing SotR coverage over the course of any fight.

But after 4pc:

1) Increased GC procs from 4pc means fewer rotation fillers and more resource generators during HA, eliminating this shortfall and likely surpassing DP in this category.
2) Resource overflow seems practically unavoidable in the event of overlapping GC & DP proc chains.
3) CD stacking synergy too good to pass up, and reprieve compensates for lost smoovness.

I'm sure those who run DP have their reasons, but I'd be curious to know the rationale in light of the above.

[celinamuna]

Man I love checking into this thread. PJSalt, boys.

FinalBoss isn't exactly a treasure trove of information and Bay is a mediocre host on his best day. Still, I enjoy watching the tank-focused episodes to see what people think, even if I don't always agree with their perspective or analysis.

It's probably not a coincidence that the Paladins in consideration don't post here.

Why yes, i do wonder why people think that current version of EmpS is good.

Esp considering that i've only found 1 log of treckie using EmpS.

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My 2c on HA v DP

Before T18 4pc the conventional wisdom was:

1) DP is believed to have a slight edge in terms of resource generation (Averaging 33% compared to 30% extra HoPo from HA)
2) Being passive, DP requires no management other than preventing resource capping.
3) By the same token, it cannot be utilized as a defensive cd, nor reliably stacked with offensive cds. But it does provide a respectable amount of smoothing by increasing SotR coverage over the course of any fight.

But after 4pc:

1) Increased GC procs from 4pc means fewer rotation fillers and more resource generators during HA, eliminating this shortfall and likely surpassing DP in this category.
2) Resource overflow seems practically unavoidable in the event of overlapping GC & DP proc chains.
3) CD stacking synergy too good to pass up, and reprieve compensates for lost smoovness.

I'm sure those who run DP have their reasons, but I'd be curious to know the rationale in light of the above.

You need a long GC/DP proc chain to result in overflow.

[Deleted]

DP is just a massive DPS loss at negligible survivability gain with Sanctus in play. It makes no sense to use it when the vast majority of the tier favours HA by design anyway - especially with 4pc providing a level of smoothing that largely obviates the need for constant SotR coverage on most fights; this is particularly the case when you pool properly around the ICD of the class trinket or play with WUE.

@Fusoya I could understand claiming PJSalt if we'd signed up for the show and hadn't been invited, but none of us have any interest in participating in the first place. I couldn't physically care less who he invites were it not for the fact that every time someone recommends EmpS or something similarly inane on the show we have to deal with another wave of people who think a largely awful talent is the bee's knees.

[Deleted]

The entire reason EmpS is bashed in this thread is because it's an incredibly situational talent rather than one that can be recommended as a blanket choice. It absolutely conceivably has its uses during progress in certain situations...

... which 99.9% of the raiding population will literally never see in their entire fucking lives.

Of course anyone who has a solid understanding of the class knows there are situations in which EmpS isn't just viable, but desirable. Those situations, however, are generally so few and far in between, and so limited to situations in terms of gear relative to content (not to mention WILDLY dependent on healing comp and healer/tank synergy in the specific guild) that most people will never see them, that even mentioning EmpS is pointless. The people who could ever conceivably want to spec EmpS and not have it be a completely fucking awful choice already know what situations favour it and why you spec it, and don't need to be told. The rest of the raiding population needs to stay the hell away from the talent.

[Deleted]

Except it isn't "generally so few". You basically use emps on the fights I listed if you dont have wue. And I know so many god damn guilds who never saw a WuE drop (mine being one)

I still wouldn't spec EmpS unless I had a certain healing setup, honestly. Twisting just isn't worth the global cost and giving up SoI entirely during progress is something I'm extremely adverse to doing.

I'm not arguing that EmpS never has its place here but to me it almost requires a situation like Blackhand or Zakuun pre-4pc and without WUE to be any good, on top of not working well with every healer comp.