[Prot] WoD/Legion Alpha Discussion

[celinamuna]

Oh ho. Forgot to mention it, but I owe this thread a lot. My guild struggled a while on heroic Archie until they put the nerfs in for smaller groups. Small raid team ya know. We were stuck on farm the last few weeks but then we somehow hit the magical 20 man mark and walked into M HFC. Promptly fucking died. Died again, a couple of times. No matter we did passive cleave kept popping those meta assholes. Finally we said fuck, just cleave all the things and we'll see what happens, and it fell over dead. Tips I picked up on reading through there helped me get my DPS up to the point where I felt as though I made a substantial contribution. My survivability ranking was shit but never felt like I was in trouble of dying. Anyway, thanks guys. Here's my first mythic log as a tank in current content, ever. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

Congrats, and you poor thing having to read all of this shit posting for actual information.

[Won7on]

Anyway, thanks guys. Here's my first mythic log as a tank in current content, ever. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

Grats! Welcome to the wonderful world of Mythic raiding, it only gets better and better from here.

[celinamuna]

Trading Vengeance between 3 tanks and timing your SotRs to get triple Vengeance off melee hits wasn't.

Why in the world were you trading vengeance between 3 tanks ?

[Won7on]

Why in the world were you trading vengeance between 3 tanks ?

We never did but AFAIK that was a strat on Garrosh, no? Since tanks could top DPS with Vengeance and you could keep 3 at high Vengeance by continually trading aggro around. I definitely heard of other guilds doing it.

[celinamuna]

We never did but AFAIK that was a strat on Garrosh, no? Since tanks could top DPS with Vengeance and you could keep 3 at high Vengeance by continually trading aggro around. I definitely heard of other guilds doing it.

On 10m you'd either 1 tank or 2 tank, never heard of 3 tanks. On 25m you'd 3 tank every once in a while, but usually it was a monk just afking until 3rd phase where he would just kite the adds (which is why half the time it was done on undergeared alt)

[Won7on]

You know, the more I think about it, the more I think tanking would be better if every boss did 1/2 as much melee damage but had 2x the attack speed. Ok, it might need some tuning with things like Grand Crusader, but getting rid of insanely huge melee hits for 60-80% of a tank's health is an important start, I think. I'll never forget insta-dying to a melee from 75% health on Iron Reaver (okay, I didn't have WUE on, but still).

[Deleted]

You know, the more I think about it, the more I think tanking would be better if every boss did 1/2 as much melee damage but had 2x the attack speed. Ok, it might need some tuning with things like Grand Crusader, but getting rid of insanely huge melee hits for 60-80% of a tank's health is an important start, I think. I'll never forget insta-dying to a melee from 75% health on Iron Reaver (okay, I didn't have WUE on, but still).

The net damage intake would be exactly the same, and quite frankly it wouldn't help much. Boss melee damage just needs to be tuned down, period. It simply doesn't make for compelling gameplay.

[Won7on]

The net damage intake would be exactly the same, and quite frankly it wouldn't help much. Boss melee damage just needs to be tuned down, period. It simply doesn't make for compelling gameplay.

Well, you'd have an extra 0.5-0.75 seconds to react to a damage spike at LEAST. I'm obviously talking about a hypothetical fantasy alternate-reality HFC in which this is a hotfix, not the general damage intake model I want for Legion.

[Deleted]

Well, you'd have an extra 0.5-0.75 seconds to react to a damage spike at LEAST. I'm obviously talking about a hypothetical fantasy alternate-reality HFC in which this is a hotfix, not the general damage intake model I want for Legion.

Doesn't really matter much so long as the reaction time is less than a GCD.

Ideally tank damage should behave roughly like raid damage did in Highmaul - a game of attrition, not a game of whack-a-mole.

Edit: Honestly Lazel you know as well as the rest of us do that even if that's how you get around the current state of tank damage, and it's a joke to do so in practice when you're a good, seasoned player, the fact that you even have to is fucking bullshit and devalues active mitigation in the first place.

I'd personally like to see a lot more fights like Siegecrafter Blackfuse where there's only really a specific window of time that boss melees can kill you, and these are when your active mitigation is relevant. Having simple boss melees be an imminent death risk in the span of very few globals for an entire fight makes AM feel less meaningful rather than more meaningful when you play a class with uptime-limited AM.

[Won7on]

Doesn't really matter much so long as the reaction time is less than a GCD.

Ideally tank damage should behave roughly like raid damage did in Highmaul - a game of attrition, not a game of whack-a-mole.

Agreed. The attrition damage model is much more appealing to me. You don't pay with a death immediately, you pay with being out of CDs 2 minutes later, or your healers being OoM 5 minutes later.

[Lysozyme]

My survivability ranking was shit but never felt like I was in trouble of dying.

Don't worry, the tank survivability metric is so nonsensical that it's being removed after HFC. It's not that tank survivability doesn't matter at all, of course, but there aren't any good ways of measuring it, and the numbers from KRSI are essentially completely irrelevant. If you didn't feel like you were in danger of dying, and put out relevant DPS, you did well.

[Bobblefet]

Don't worry, the tank survivability metric is so nonsensical that it's being removed after HFC. It's not that tank survivability doesn't matter at all, of course, but there aren't any good ways of measuring it, and the numbers from KRSI are essentially completely irrelevant. If you didn't feel like you were in danger of dying, and put out relevant DPS, you did well.

That's how I feel about tanking as well. My RL though (h pally, not a tank or real raid tanking experience) actually got on me about about my survivability parse in that log I linked a few posts back. I was like 10% or some shit, but I didn't die and it wasn't even close. I mean it was our first mythic kill and got like #23 tank dps or some shit and I know damn well all that dps helped much more than him being able to cast a few more holy shocks or whatever because I'm playing like a turtle and can just heal myself.

[Deleted]

Yea I just don't like it when it gets to the point where we have to stack stamina instead of just mitigation because it just gets dumb.

Agreed, but I don't think anyone is asking for that sort of gameplay. If anything, I'd argue the current tanking metagame favours stamina far more than an attrition model ever would - as much as we shit-talk stacking stamina because it's generally a crutch to compensate for bad play, it's pretty hard to argue that stacking stamina (or versatility rofl) is the most direct workaround to the fact that we're a Ret with a shield outside of SotR/DP.

[Inuyaki]

Agreed. The attrition damage model is much more appealing to me. You don't pay with a death immediately, you pay with being out of CDs 2 minutes later, or your healers being OoM 5 minutes later.

+1
I really thought they go for that in WoD :/

[Promdates]

I was like 10% or some shit, but I didn't die and it wasn't even close. I mean it was our first mythic kill and got like #23 tank dps or some shit and I know damn well all that dps helped much more than him being able to cast a few more holy shocks or whatever because I'm playing like a turtle and can just heal myself.

1: Did you die?
2: Were you a massive strain on the healers?
If no to both: who cares.

[Won7on]

I'd personally like to see a lot more fights like Siegecrafter Blackfuse where there's only really a specific window of time that boss melees can kill you, and these are when your active mitigation is relevant.

Yeah, or Dia as I mentioned earlier. High-damage windows create interesting gameplay, high-damage fights do not.

[palypowa]

That's how I feel about tanking as well. My RL though (h pally, not a tank or real raid tanking experience) actually got on me about about my survivability parse in that log I linked a few posts back. I was like 10% or some shit, but I didn't die and it wasn't even close. I mean it was our first mythic kill and got like #23 tank dps or some shit and I know damn well all that dps helped much more than him being able to cast a few more holy shocks or whatever because I'm playing like a turtle and can just heal myself.

Your job is to make sure shit dies on progression and you can sure as shit do more damage as a tank then he can as a healer.

[Proof]

That's how I feel about tanking as well. My RL though (h pally, not a tank or real raid tanking experience) actually got on me about about my survivability parse in that log I linked a few posts back. I was like 10% or some shit, but I didn't die and it wasn't even close. I mean it was our first mythic kill and got like #23 tank dps or some shit and I know damn well all that dps helped much more than him being able to cast a few more holy shocks or whatever because I'm playing like a turtle and can just heal myself.

Early kills on Hellfire Assault won't be a great performance indicator for tank survivability. DPS bottlenecks cause multiple Hulks to be up simultaneously, stacking your debuff higher and causing you to to take much more damage. On the flipside, early Assault kills will give you the best dps parses because you have to carry more of the weight until your dps gear up properly. There is no comparing progression parses to farm kills on this fight, where half the time we're sitting there with nothing to tank because dps is just melting everything.

Having said that, I do believe there is much you can learn from KRSI. It's not a perfect metric but if you rank 10% there is probably room for improvement in your playstyle, even assuming a riskier, more aggressive build. Show me a parse and I'll nitpick your build & uptimes.

[Bobblefet]

Early kills on Hellfire Assault won't be a great performance indicator for tank survivability. DPS bottlenecks cause multiple Hulks to be up simultaneously, stacking your debuff higher and causing you to to take much more damage. On the flipside, early Assault kills will give you the best dps parses because you have to carry more of the weight until your dps gear up properly. There is no comparing progression parses to farm kills on this fight, where half the time we're sitting there with nothing to tank because dps is just melting everything.

Having said that, I do believe there is much you can learn from KRSI. It's not a perfect metric but if you rank 10% there is probably room for improvement in your playstyle, even assuming a riskier, more aggressive build. Show me a parse and I'll nitpick your build & uptimes.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...7&type=summary that's the M HFC one.


https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...TM98QA#boss=-2 This one is from last week on probably the worst raid we've had in a long, long time. Figured a bad one would show more holes than a good one.

[Vergilius]

well at least our mythic set looks dope af boys