Can't find any info on MM opener

[Azortharion]

Hogarr MVP.

[Deleted]

Dude, Azortharion's posts aside, your opener is nonsensical. If you're okay with doing a lackluster opener - that's your prerogative. I'm telling you right now though, I've tested your opener, I've tested my own, and I've test Azortharion's suggestions as well. Of the 3 your suggestion is the least consistent. If you're fine being an average pleb ranking in the 50th percentile - go for it man. However, some of us are interested in pushing the class to the limit of it's ability and have the capacity to think this shit out. If you don't trust the dude, that's fine - go start your own fucking hunter guide and we'll slowly watch as the people in your camp consistently get beaten by smarter, better players.

Precast aimed shot takes you from 120 to 90 (if crit which most likely always is in careful aim phase)
Chimera shot takes you to 60
Crows takes you to 30
Rapid fire
If ToTH procs (most likely will) aimed shot
If ToTH doesn't proc cast arcane torrent and you'll have focus to cast an aimed

[Hogarr]

That's where the blood elf arcane torrent passive shines

This has to be my last response to you.

Just think this out man.

The only thing we are suggesting is a different order of abilities in way that will allow you to buff your hardest hitting abilities. In the first 10 seconds of a fight you are almost always going to do the following abilities in some order:

CS, AS, MoC, RF, SS, GT (If you have it)

You want to get as many BUFFED CS and AS in as you can regardless of TotH.

Even with arcane torrent - you could be getting another fully buffed AS in during Rapid Fire if you didn't use it as your opener. That is an aimed shot w/ trinkets, scope, potion, and a 60% increased chance to crit.

If you can't understand why your opener is a net DPS loss then I can't help you.

[Deleted]

This has to be my last response to you.

Just think this out man.

The only thing we are suggesting is a different order of abilities in way that will allow you to buff your hardest hitting abilities. In the first 10 seconds of a fight you are almost always going to do the following abilities in some order:

CS, AS, MoC, RF, SS, GT (If you have it)

You want to get as many BUFFED CS and AS in as you can regardless of TotH.

Even with arcane torrent - you could be getting another fully buffed AS in during Rapid Fire if you didn't use it as your opener. That is an aimed shot w/ trinkets, scope, potion, and a 60% increased chance to crit.

If you can't understand why your opener is a net DPS loss then I can't help you.

I appreciate your advice but I've tested it countless times in cms and I personally know that it's the best opener I have. With the scope procing almost every first seconds of the pull I have a 100% crit chance on my aimed with it. My other trinkets are Skull of war(which has a proc that brings me way over crit cap making it useless for aimed shots in careful aim phase and LDSC(which I use before the first chimera shot) to each their own I guess..

[Azortharion]

1) You're locked to 630 iLvl in a CM, very few people are gonna have 630 iLvl starting raiding.

2) How do you even know if precasting Glaive Toss sucks when you would, being the "top-tier hunter" you are, of course go Barrage for any CM?

3) Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. I've done bigger openers using my method. That's not what makes mine better than yours, though, it's math and logic that's fairly easy to understand for most people.

4) Your Scope proccing early does not mean the pre-cast Aimed you are so intent on doing will crit, because guess what, it's the first thing you do. You're dumping 30 or 50 focus into an unbuffed Aimed Shot that is not guaranteed to crit.

"To each their own" - seriously? Lol.

[Hogarr]

1) You're locked to 630 iLvl in a CM, very few people are gonna have 630 iLvl starting raiding.

2) How do you even know if precasting Glaive Toss sucks when you would, being the "top-tier hunter" you are, of course go Barrage for any CM?

3) Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. I've done bigger openers using my method. That's not what makes mine better than yours, though, it's math and logic that's fairly easy to understand for most people.

4) Your Scope proccing early does not mean the pre-cast Aimed you are so intent on doing will crit, because guess what, it's the first thing you do. You're dumping 30 or 50 focus into an unbuffed Aimed Shot that is not guaranteed to crit.

"To each their own" - seriously? Lol.

You're wasting your time at this point, I'm pretty sure he's a troll. My only concern is that people will read this thread and feel somewhat confused on which route to go. I strongly suggest folks try things out themselves and see what feels best to them. As Azortharion said previously though, math doesn't lie - there is always an optimal way to do things and chances are following those instructions will get you further.

On a side note, would it be worth adding notes on spec openers to the All in One guide in the other thread?

[Deleted]

1) You're locked to 630 iLvl in a CM, very few people are gonna have 630 iLvl starting raiding.

2) How do you even know if precasting Glaive Toss sucks when you would, being the "top-tier hunter" you are, of course go Barrage for any CM?

3) Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. I've done bigger openers using my method. That's not what makes mine better than yours, though, it's math and logic that's fairly easy to understand for most people.

4) Your Scope proccing early does not mean the pre-cast Aimed you are so intent on doing will crit, because guess what, it's the first thing you do. You're dumping 30 or 50 focus into an unbuffed Aimed Shot that is not guaranteed to crit.

"To each their own" - seriously? Lol.

1) I'm 642 ilvl outside of cms so if I could get that gear so can others and very few people will have 630 come raiding when we have 2+weeks to gear up?Get real.
2)I've ran them multiple times and glaive toss has pretty much no place in pve after seeing it's pitiful damage(not worth the gcd)
3) You have about the same "evidence" as i have
4) I have 36% crit self buffed making my aimed shot a 96% chance to crit in careful aim phase (i like those odds)

[Azortharion]

1) I'm 642 ilvl outside of cms so if I could get that gear so can others and very few people will have 630 come raiding when we have 2+weeks to gear up?come on man
2)I've ran them multiple times and glaive toss has pretty much no place in pve after seeing it's pitiful damage(not worth the gcd)
3) You have about the same "evidence" as i have
4) I have 36% crit self buffed making my aimed shot a 96% chance to crit in careful aim phase (i like those odds)

1) Sure, but the point is that testing an opener in a CM is inaccurate.
2) Well, this is just wrong from a math standpoint. It is sort of like saying that atoms don't exist and that "its" as "belongs to" is spelled "it's" as "it is".
3) You've no correct math, I've got that.
4) Even when it does crit you're still wrong, though.

[Hogarr]

1) I'm 642 ilvl outside of cms so if I could get that gear so can others
2)I've ran them multiple times and glaive toss has pretty much no place in pve after seeing it's pitiful damage(not worth the gcd)
3) You have about the same "evidence" as i have
4) I have 36% crit self buffed making my aimed shot a 96% chance to crit in careful aim phase (i like those odds)

Can't believe I'm getting sucked back into this >_<
1) He was just stating the in a CM your iLvl is locked to 630. In a raid, you'll be higher, meaning you'll see different results in those two different environments.

2) GT isn't just about how much dmg it does - I believe it has a chance to proc TotH as well as the reduced Focus Cost makes room for other harder hitting abilities and more breathing room in the rotation.

3) We all have the same evidence. The difference is that we are using tools like math and logic to best determine what the optimal play style is. That doesn't necessarily translate to instant success as the perfect rotation still requires a good player to perform it. You on the other hand are making claims based on your own individual experience and claiming it as FACT. The reason there is any argument here is because you are claiming it as factual information and disregarding hard evidence of why you are wrong.

[eschatological]

Math is math. Provide mathematical rebuttals to Azor's claims and people will take you seriously. He's not only proven to be a rank 1 hunter in the past, but, more importantly, he's done the math. Until you can at least provide the latter, no one will take you seriously.

[Deleted]

Can't believe I'm getting sucked back into this >_<
1) He was just stating the in a CM your iLvl is locked to 630. In a raid, you'll be higher, meaning you'll see different results in those two different environments.

2) GT isn't just about how much dmg it does - I believe it has a chance to proc TotH as well as the reduced Focus Cost makes room for other harder hitting abilities and more breathing room in the rotation.

3) We all have the same evidence. The difference is that we are using tools like math and logic to best determine what the optimal play style is. That doesn't necessarily translate to instant success as the perfect rotation still requires a good player to perform it. You on the other hand are making claims based on your own individual experience and claiming it as FACT. The reason there is any argument here is because you are claiming it as factual information and disregarding hard evidence of why you are wrong.

1) And it being scaled down to 630 won't stop me from doing the same thing i'm doing outside in the openers
2)He suggested using glaive toss in the opener when it does pitiful damage and giving you a 9% of a ToTH chance versus a 60% from an aimed shot and don't even say you'll be focus starved when rapid fire and the focus you get back from an almost a guaranteed crit will be all that you will need.
3)With his logic in this thread even going to say very few people will even reach 630 ilvl despite the fact blizzard is giving everyone a 2 week head start to get gear makes me even question his mathematical skills.

That's about all the time i have to argue with former "top tier" players on posts, good day.

[Hogarr]

1) And it being scaled down to 630 won't stop me from doing the same thing i'm doing outside in the openers
2)He suggested using glaive toss in the opener when it does pitiful damage and giving you a 9% of a ToTH chance versus a 60% from an aimed shot and don't even say you'll be focus starved when rapid fire and the focus you get back from an almost a guaranteed crit will be all that you will need.
3)With his logic in this thread even going to say very few people will even reach 630 ilvl despite the fact blizzard is giving everyone a 2 week head start to get gear makes me even question his mathematical skills.

That's about all the time i have to argue with former "top tier" players on posts, good day.

You are far too fucking stupid.

Reread his post and put it into context. He's not suggesting that people wont be able to reach 630. He's suggesting that no one will still be at 630. Meaning that something that was possibly efficient at 630 wouldn't necessarily be at 640-645 which is where most folks WILL be on Dec 2nd.

[Deleted]

You are far too fucking stupid.

Reread his post and put it into context. He's not suggesting that people wont be able to reach 630. He's suggesting that no one will still be at 630. Meaning that something that was possibly efficient at 630 wouldn't necessarily be at 640-645 which is where most folks WILL be on Dec 2nd.

Maybe he should specify it? The majority will be around 630 unless they do cms and or buy all the gear

[Azortharion]

1) How is an Aimed Shot a 60% chance of a ToTH? Have you even read the tooltip? It's 6% chance for each 10 focus spent, that's 30%, genius.
2) How is 20 focus "all that you will need"? It's 20 focus. You haven't even RF'd at this point, so it's not like passive regen will bring it to 30, and that's if ToTH procs which is most likely won't (see 1))
3) How is 25k damage "pitiful"? It's a third of an Aimed Shot's damage for 1) under one third of the cost and 2) ~2.5 takes faster to cast.
4) L2comprehension.
5) "The majority will be around 630 unless they do things that everyone in their right mind would do (at least do CM's, which is basically guaranteed 640+ if you get your act together).

Nice cop-out, I don't think you could make yourself look more thick-headed even if you tried.

[Hogarr]

1) How is an Aimed Shot a 60% chance of a ToTH? Have you even read the tooltip? It's 6% chance for each 10 focus spent, that's 30%, genius.
2) How is 20 focus "all that you will need"? It's 20 focus. You haven't even RF'd at this point, so it's not like passive regen will bring it to 30, and that's if ToTH procs which is most likely won't (see 1))
3) How is 25k damage "pitiful"? It's a third of an Aimed Shot's damage for 1) under one third of the cost and 2) ~2.5 takes faster to cast.
4) L2comprehension.
5) "The majority will be around 630 unless they do things that everyone in their right mind would do (at least do CM's, which is basically guaranteed 640+ if you get your act together).

Nice cop-out, I don't think you could make yourself look more thick-headed even if you tried.

Thank You. . .

[Deleted]

1) How is an Aimed Shot a 60% chance of a ToTH? Have you even read the tooltip? It's 6% chance for each 10 focus spent, that's 30%, genius.
2) How is 20 focus "all that you will need"? It's 20 focus. You haven't even RF'd at this point, so it's not like passive regen will bring it to 30, and that's if ToTH procs which is most likely won't (see 1))
3) How is 25k damage "pitiful"? It's a third of an Aimed Shot's damage for 1) under one third of the cost and 2) ~2.5 takes faster to cast.
4) L2comprehension.
5) "The majority will be around 630 unless they do things that everyone in their right mind would do (at least do CM's, which is basically guaranteed 640+ if you get your act together).

Nice cop-out, I don't think you could make yourself look more thick-headed even if you tried.

Oh man a typo!it still stands to a 9% vs 30%, triple the damage, 30% crit vs 90% crit, 0 reason not to open with an aimed shot and you didn't even bother to even try the rotation I gave you or else you would see you aren't focus starved even with a non-aimed shot crit in the opener.

[Aldarana]

Oh man a typo!it still stands to a 9% vs 30%, triple the damage, 30% crit vs 90% crit, 0 reason not to open with an aimed shot and you didn't even bother to even try the rotation I gave you or else you would see you aren't focus starved even with a non-aimed shot crit in the opener.

I posted this 2 pages back:

As for precasting aimed giving a better chance at a TotH proc that is true, you are 21% more likely to have a TotH proc when precasting (48% vs. 69%) but you'll only have ~16 focus to spend on the proc unlike the GT opener which would leave you with ~54 focus allowing you to dump 2 TotH Aimed Shots before needing to ST. Even if you don't get a TotH with GT, Aimed, Crows you can still cast a 50 focus Aimed afterwards fishing for a proc, only it'll be under the hasted effect of RF and affected by all of your procs.

So assuming the first Aimed Shot crits you'd have ~36 focus enough to dump the first TotH stack before having to ST. Keep the mind the longer it takes you to dump your TotH stacks the more likely you are to "lose" then by proccing TotH again on an Aimed.

That's if you get the TotH proc, which is only a 69% chance still plenty of room for failure. If not you'll be spending the next 2 seconds will full procs and RF casting....ST.

[Hogarr]

Oh man a typo!it still stands to a 9% vs 30%, triple the damage, 30% crit vs 90% crit, 0 reason not to open with an aimed shot and you didn't even bother to even try the rotation I gave you or else you would see you aren't focus starved even with a non-aimed shot crit in the opener.

lol, it's all crashing down so quickly, no way you typo'd that, you're just daft. Even IF Azortharion didn't try your opener - I did. I had been using it because it felt most similar to what I was used to having played a caster previously. However, after adjusting to Azortharion's suggestion in another thread, and then tweaking it to my play style I found myself doing quite a bit more burst. . .The only one that isn't giving legitimate thought to all suggestions here is you.

[Deleted]

lol, it's all crashing down so quickly, no way you typo'd that, you're just daft. Even IF Azortharion didn't try your opener - I did. I had been using it because it felt most similar to what I was used to having played a caster previously. However, after adjusting to Azortharion's suggestion in another thread, and then tweaking it to my play style I found myself doing quite a bit more burst. . .The only one that isn't giving legitimate thought to all suggestions here is you.

typo or not i'd still do the exact same thing, you most likely aren't even a blood elf for the torrent and other hunters from the top guilds on my server do the exact same thing by precasting a aimed shot

[Hogarr]

typo or not i'd still do the exact same thing, you most likely aren't even a blood elf for the torrent and other hunters from the top guilds on my server do the exact same thing by precasting a aimed shot

I'm not, but if I was it wouldn't change a thing. You have not 1, but 3 different people providing you a solid evidence as to how you could be doing better, helping not only yourself, but your potential groups. Instead of taking said advice, and actually trying it out, you are just sticking your head in the sand.

That being said, I'm almost wondering if you are arguing simply because he suggested the optimal opener when using GT as your talent. I'm assuming you do not use it, as most of us are currently using barrage.

In the event that you are using barrage, what would the optimal opener be?

Previously I'd suggested

PrePot
MoC
Trinket+CS
RF+AS

CS>AS>Steady Shot -> 80%

80% and on
CS>KS>Barrage>Steady Shot (Use MoC/Rapid Fire on CD)