Holy DPS

[Decessus]

I've been telling my friends for quite some time that I'd like to see a paladin caster spec. It's simple for Blizzard to do it, really, since they implemented complete different styles of play to other classes through a single talent, such as CoP for priests and Glad's Resolve for warriors. All they need to do is a similar talent for Holy Paladins and in a sec we would be viable casters. We have enough spells already, they just need to be tuned through a talent.

[Jackielope]

The biggest issue with caster pally DPS is AoE. Other issues are an extremely straightforward/boring rotation, mana tweaking, and perhaps PVP/role split tuning.

Holy doesn't currently have access to any AoE besides level 90 talents. If Consecration came in it would have to naturally be able to be targeted without spending a glyph slot. An AoE HoPo builder with a CD might be needed, or a spammable ability that we can toss Holy Shock after for something like DPS Daybreak. An AoE HoPo spender is definitely needed and reworking Light of Dawn probably won't work too well for that given the target limitations. Holy Wrath requires being in melee so it would have to be reworked for range use if it was a caster DPS ability.

The current rotation is just cast HS on CD, fill in the gaps with Denounce, then use HaW at 3 HoPo and repeat. Some sort of proc would likely be needed to make things more dynamic, and Judgment use could probably stand to be woven in somehow provided it is actually made to hit stronger than a wet noodle on Valium.

We currently run out of mana just casting HS and Execution Sentence. Some way to regain mana without spirit is needed.

Making sure we can't split so easily between DPS and healing might be a thing both in PVE and PVP. If we get the Gladiator Stance treatment then we'd just have a Seal of Faith or whatever that can't be swapped into or out of in combat, and that could change our abilities a bit by boosting DPS and lowering healing potential.

[Jackielope]

Hidden in the patch notes for Jan 23rd:

Holy
Denounce damage has increased by 50%.
Holy Shock damage has increased by 50%.


This will definitely be interesting. Alas, SimC's gui no longer works with Windows XP so I can't test these changes once they get added in but I do expect them to be significant to the point that Blizzard might nerf them.

Hm, I might be able to use a spell override for these actually.

And if a nerf does come in I wonder if it might simply be removing glyph of Holy Shock.

[Inuyaki]

How much of that 28k dps were HS and Den?

[Simulacrum]

Just eyeballing those changes, unless I have something wrong in my head, you're gonna be bursting like 50k+ dps for the duration of BL if you run HS glyph and sanctified wrath.

Seems like a weird thing to do in a raid, but it sure is going to confuse a lot more people in the 5 mans I run. Unless they realize how weird this would be and just remove the HS glyph, which I guess would make more sense than keeping it in the game with these changes.

[Jackielope]

How much of that 28k dps were HS and Den?

HS averages to about 48% of total damage. Denounce is about 28%.

48% of 28,000 is 13440. Multiply by 1.5 to get 20160, a difference of 6720. So the HS buff alone would put DPS at 28,000 + 6720 = 34720 DPS.

28% of 28k is 7840. Times by 1.5 to get 11760, or an additional 3920 DPS. Add to the 34720 to get 38640 DPS. Or just below BM hunter and Glad warrior before the hotfixes. It's above shadow priests using AS or VE, again before the 6.1 changes.

And it's actually higher. In full 695 gear with the 710 ring I was getting about 31,448 DPS. In that sim HS was 48.5%/15257 of total damage and denounce was 27.4% or 8617. 15257*1.5 is 22885 for an additional 7628 DPS, and 1.5 times 8617 is 12925 for a 4308 DPS increase. 31448+7628+4308= 43384. That damage would put it in sixth place overall based on the SimC results showing right as of this posting. There's also the haste boost to consider but I don't know what the effects of that would be.

I'm currently trying to use an override effect in SimC to boost HS and Denounce, but I keep getting errors with it so I've PM'd Theck to see what changes would need to be done.

override.spell_data=effect.25912.sp_coefficient=2.1 isn't working on either the Overrides or Simulate tabs.

The main issue I'd have with simulating things is my version of SimC doesn't have the haste boost added in and I'm not sure about how to implement it. Due to me still using XP I can't use the latest GUI versions of SimC, so I'd either have to get used to the command line version or I'd have to get a new computer. Getting the new computer seems more feasible lately, but we'll see how it goes.

- - - Updated - - -

Just eyeballing those changes, unless I have something wrong in my head, you're gonna be bursting like 50k+ dps for the duration of BL if you run HS glyph and sanctified wrath.

Seems like a weird thing to do in a raid, but it sure is going to confuse a lot more people in the 5 mans I run. Unless they realize how weird this would be and just remove the HS glyph, which I guess would make more sense than keeping it in the game with these changes.

Actually, with these changes and using the HS glyph plus HA the burst in 695 gear could very well be over 100k. Using SW is lower burst, but greater sustained DPS.

To give you a better idea, in 695 gear the best burst Holy can do according to SimC is about 81.6k DPS. Even in 630 gear Holy's burst is about 45k.

[Simulacrum]

Actually, with these changes and using the HS glyph plus HA the burst in 695 gear could very well be over 100k. Using SW is lower burst, but greater sustained DPS.

To give you a better idea, in 695 gear the best burst Holy can do according to SimC is about 81.6k DPS. Even in 630 gear Holy's burst is about 45k.

Geeze, guess my foolings around weren't up to par, and greatly made me underestimate the potential.

Would be interesting to see these changes go through, but I kind of expect they won't, at least without a nerf somewhere else.

[Jackielope]

Geeze, guess my foolings around weren't up to par, and greatly made me underestimate the potential.

Would be interesting to see these changes go through, but I kind of expect they won't, at least without a nerf somewhere else.

Yeah, I'm dubious of these ones going into full effect too. Buffing HS so much is quite significant because it makes up nearly half of our optimal damage. Denounce is just over a quarter of our damage then HaW is about 16% and finally Execution Sentence is about 8. HaW being Holy-only might be something they could buff now but if they do that they might make burst too high especially in the case of HA+AW. If they buffed Judgment they'd have to give it quite the big buff for Holy to feel it's worth it compared to Denounce.

And looking into the math of making J worthwhile for Holy I think I'll spare adding that in here right now.


Edit: The math of J vs De goes like this:

J's coefficients are .48*SP + .58*AP. Buffed AP is a constant 1676ish for Holy paladins, thus J's damage is simply 972 + .48*SP.

De's coefficient is 1.098*SP.

These two equations intersect around SP=1572. Above that value Denounce is more damage and below it Judgment is more damage. To put this in perspective, even in ilvl 630 gear Holy paladins have about 4k unbuffed SP and 5k buffed.

What if we doubled Judgment's damage for Holy only? Then the equation becomes 1944 + .96SP. Compare that to 1.098SP to find the intersection is at about at 14087 SP. Above that and Denounce is more damage and below it Judgment is. In full 695 gear Holy is about 8k buffed SP and 6.8k unbuffed depending on trinkets.

Basically, Judgment would have to be buffed about 100% to be comparable to Denounce for damage. In current gear doubling J's damage would mean it does a bit more than Denounce, but if or when we get to the point of getting 14k spellpower then Denounce will do more damage.

And now I'm wondering how things would play out for our DPS if Selfless Healer made J grant HoPo and/or boosted J's damage. It's kinda funny that if it doubled J's damage it'd still be a kinda crappy talent for Holy healing and barely a boost for Holy DPS.

A better way of boosting Judgment for Holy would be to have it scale solely from SP. That way whatever AP the paladin does get isn't a factor and won't provide what amounts to an effective baseline start.

[Greelix]

Well at least after the buff there can be no debate that using melee for holy dps will be a loss. As for the implications of this change in pvp, /drool for random and coordinated pvp.

[Jackielope]

Well at least after the buff there can be no debate that using melee for holy dps will be a loss. As for the implications of this change in pvp, /drool for random and coordinated pvp.

I don't think there was any debate to begin with about the melee stuff. Using CS was an unquestionable loss except -maybe- during HA and standing in melee to get autoattack damage while using Seal of Command would have been such a small increase in DPS that it wasn't worth it to be in melee when there are ranged-only mechanics that would have targeted the holydin even in melee because we're always flagged as ranged.

To give some perspective on how bad CS is, slotting it above Denounce on the priority list for the 695 gear causes the DPS to fall from 31,700 DPS to 27,000 DPS. That's with SW. It also causes the paladin to OOM less than 2 minutes into the simulation. There's no way changing the sim to make mana a non-issue is going to bridge that gap because CS sucks that hard.

Using it only during HA and behind HS but above Denounce... Is barely a gain. The ilvl695 sim with CS during HA is doing 31600 DPS while the one without CS use is doing 31450. 150 of 31450 is less than .5%. Not worth it at all.

This is all before the buffs by the way.

[Greelix]

Fingers crossed that we get to keep HS glyph.

[celinamuna]

bump with the new healer dmg changes ?

[Jackielope]

bump with the new healer dmg changes ?

There haven't been any changes to Holy DPS since the notes on the 23rd as far as I know. I've already gone over them and it seems fairly possible that if the numbers are indeed accurate then we'd have DPS comparable to Ret on pure single target and for shorter fights. I'm quite sure Blizz doesn't want healers doing similar DPS to DPS specs, though the limitations are certainly notable.

Hell, with a 50% buff just using Denounce and Execution Sentence alone could result in nearly 27k DPS for full 695 gear. That's equivalent to Prot's DPS in survival mode right now according to SimC's current charts.

[Juther]

did someone tested the changes on PTR, yet?

[Jackielope]

did someone tested the changes on PTR, yet?

Not that I know of.


In other news, I got a new(ish) computer and it has Windows Vista on it so I can get back to simming stuff. I still haven't figured out how to override the spell data for HS and Denounce to account for the 50% boosts though, but if/when I do or SimC gets updated with them I'll be sure to share any info.

[Jackielope]

Aha! I got the overrides working now and it's pretty much how I expected things to go. Boosting both HS and Denounce by 50% results in about 44.25k DPS. Almost exactly at Ret's 44.35k level on SimC's front page. Burst at the start of this particular sim? 85.5k. Changing things around so it uses HA instead of SW and does not use the Merciful Wrath glyph and average DPS drops to 40k, but the burst goes up to 101k at the start.

So basically on short single-target fights Holy would be comparable in damage to Ret if the HS and Denounce 50% buffs go through. Yeah, it'll get nerfed for sure.


If anyone wants to replicate the results the settings are: 10,000 iterations, 300 seconds length varied by 20%.

You'll need to use these overrides in the Overrides tab:

override.spell_data=effect.15851.sp_coefficient=2.1

override.spell_data=effect.849.sp_coefficient=1.647


And then this is the profile:

paladin="Paladin_Holy_T17M_Dmg"
level=100
race=blood_elf
role=spell
position=back
talents=1132232
glyphs=holy_shock/harsh_words/merciful_wrath
spec=holy

# This default action priority list is automatically created based on your character.
# It is a attempt to provide you with a action list that is both simple and practicable,
# while resulting in a meaningful and good simulation. It may not result in the absolutely highest possible dps.
# Feel free to edit, adapt and improve it to your own needs.
# SimulationCraft is always looking for updates and improvements to the default action lists.

# Executed before combat begins. Accepts non-harmful actions only.

actions.precombat=flask,type=greater_draenic_intellect_flask
actions.precombat+=/food,type=calamari_crepes
actions.precombat+=/blessing_of_kings,if=(!aura.str_agi_int.up)&(aura.mastery.up)
actions.precombat+=/blessing_of_might,if=!aura.mastery.up
actions.precombat+=/seal_of_insight
# Snapshot raid buffed stats before combat begins and pre-potting is done.
actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats
actions.precombat+=/potion,name=draenic_intellect

# Executed every time the actor is available.

actions=potion,name=draenic_intellect,if=buff.bloodlust.react|target.time_to_die<=40
actions+=/arcane_torrent
actions+=/holy_avenger,if=holy_power<=2
actions+=/avenging_wrath
actions+=/execution_sentence
actions+=/harsh_word,if=buff.divine_purpose.react
actions+=/harsh_word,if=holy_power>=3
actions+=/holy_shock,damage=1
actions+=/denounce

head=lavadipped_greathelm,id=113894,bonus_id=567
neck=choker_of_bloody_flame,id=120077,bonus_id=567,enchant_id=5320
shoulder=pauldrons_of_guiding_light,id=115565,bonus_id=567
chest=chestplate_of_arcane_volatility,id=113831,bonus_id=567
waist=ironcrushers_collar,id=113950,bonus_id=567
legs=legplates_of_guiding_light,id=115569,bonus_id=567
feet=iron_bellow_sabatons,id=113961,bonus_id=567
wrist=bracers_of_visceral_force,id=119331,bonus_id=567
hands=gauntlets_of_guiding_light,id=115567,bonus_id=567
finger1=spellbound_runic_band_of_infinite_preservation,id=118309,enchant_id=5327
finger2=epicenter_loop,id=113947,bonus_id=567,enchant_id=5327
trinket1=goren_soul_repository,id=119194,bonus_id=567
trinket2=blackiron_micro_crucible,id=113984,bonus_id=567
back=runescribed_gronncloak,id=120078,bonus_id=567,enchant_id=5313
main_hand=koloch_na_the_blood_feast,id=113973,bonus_id=567,enchant_id=5334
off_hand=enginestokers_lantern,id=113960,bonus_id=567

[Jackielope]

Patch notes from Feb 25th: The Holy Shock glyph was changed from +50% damage and -50% healing to +25% damage and -25% healing. In optimal 695 gear this puts us squarely at 40k DPS instead of the 43.7k DPS we were doing before the change. Basically it's an 8.5% nerf to overall DPS. If one is going by the SimulationCraft rankings on their front page, that puts us in between Gladiators above us and Shadow using Void Entropy below us. Basically we still make the DPS list but it's only barely and our lack of AoE will mean we simply won't get a DPS slot on many encounters.

It might still be worth playing on certain encounters. Ko'ragh N/H comes to mind since we can still put out decent magic burst with HA (and Bloodlust) while having better overall DPS using Glyph of Merciful Wrath. HA+MW with 695 gear set shows 86k burst DPS and 39.2k overall DPS. HA without MW is 94k burst DPS but comes at 37.9k DPS, which is a 1.3k/3.5% loss. The extra burst from dropping MW is probably worth it on that specific fight due to how the boss takes extra magic damage for a short time, but it's not likely worth it on other encounters where you can't meaningfully benefit from a burst window.

A fun thing I found while poking through some other SimC stuff: Holy's single target universally beats shadow priests in 630 gear even after the glyph nerf. Based on how two shadow specs beat us at 695 I'd expect all shadow specs to beat us in the next tier.

[Ssateneth]

oh hi, didnt know this thread existed. reminds me of the days of 1 shotting with holy shock in level 70 bracket. makes me want to level up my pally to see if I can push respectable numbers in raids while shocking

[Jackielope]

oh hi, didnt know this thread existed. reminds me of the days of 1 shotting with holy shock in level 70 bracket. makes me want to level up my pally to see if I can push respectable numbers in raids while shocking

It's possible to do it on certain fights, yes. If the fight requires cleave or AoE Shockadin almost certainly won't perform very well. On single target it performs similarly to some Shadow priest specs and the burst potential means fights with increased damage phases (gonna keep mentioning Ko'ragh for this because it's perfect) will let Shockadin shine.

I'm working on a guide for going Shockadin with some insights via Fatboss's Youtube vids on how to handle each Highmaul and BRF boss fight.

[Ssateneth]

Doing gruul and oregorger should be easy enough, maybe flamebender. Everything else though... Such AOE.