Syrian government accused of using chlorine gas on ISIS

[TheGravemind]

Ethnic engineering,serfdom is something to be grateful for?

Two-faced hypocrite, to hell with you.

Industrialization, agricultural progression, moral progression, ethical rejuvenation, civil reconstruction, spiritual rehabilitation -- the Ottomans brought life to southern Europe. You are forever in their debt.

[Wildberry]

The Assad regime is literally fascist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Oh boy a Wikipedia article on Fascism... This is bound to be full of enlightening information.

I... there's just a lot that's blatantly wrong on the page. I realize that Fascism is a sticky subject, but this page is ridiculous.

You seem open to reading, so I'll leave you with this. Please go read about D'Annunzio, Mussolini, and Impresa di Fiume. It's all highly interesting from a historical perspective. Maybe by the end of it, you'll see that despite attempts to apply the label of "Fascist" to other countries, Fascism in Italy was a unique (but bad) form of government, and it's something that we can't really neatly shove Assad, Pinochet, Peron, Hitler and Franco into.

[TheGravemind]

So basically the war would be over before you finished your training, brave.

It's not about braveness, but rather about doing what's morally correct. I'm not a tool of imperialist foreign policy. If their interests happen to align with moral objectives, so be it.

[Cybran]

Industrialization, agricultural progression, moral progression, ethical rejuvenation, civil reconstruction, spiritual rehabilitation

Literally nothing from this list is correct. You should seriously stop spewing this nonsense. It makes you look even more ridiculous than usual.

[TheGravemind]

Oh boy a Wikipedia article on Fascism... This is bound to be full of enlightening information.

I... there's just a lot that's blatantly wrong on the page. I realize that Fascism is a sticky subject, but this page is ridiculous.

You seem open to reading, so I'll leave you with this. Please go read about D'Annunzio, Mussolini, and Impresa di Fiume. It's all highly interesting from a historical perspective. Maybe by the end of it, you'll see that despite attempts to apply the label of "Fascist" to other countries, Fascism in Italy was a unique (but bad) form of government, and it's something that we can neatly shove Assad, Pinochet, Peron, Hitler and Franco into.

It seems you are confused about what fascism means. The Assadist regime is squarely within the rubric of fascism, but more importantly, its regime is reminiscent to that of preceding fascist regimes with its torture techniques, racial nationalism mythos, corporate syndicalism and subversion. The Assadist regime is a blight upon humanity, it is disgusting that anyone would even think of defending their appalling actions, much less actually do it.

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Literally nothing from this list is correct. You should seriously stop spewing this nonsense. It makes you look even more ridiculous than usual.

I wouldn't expect a Mladic fanboy to see eye to eye with me on this subject.

[Deleted]

Industrialization, agricultural progression, moral progression, ethical rejuvenation, civil reconstruction, spiritual rehabilitation -- the Ottomans brought life to southern Europe. You are forever in their debt.

This is golden. If not for Byzantine Empire, Turks would to this day crawl somewhere in Central Asia. They can't even build their own country, how would they manage to improve others?

[Deleted]

There are people who actually type, post and believe this.

Yes, and even as an pro military and gun owner ( and in France trust me it's hard to have good stuff ) i believe law are for everybody, especialy about chemical weapon, using them even on the scum of earth make you just like them, and let me tell you, if i have to torture someone to save people i'll do it without remorse, but chemical weapon ? napalm ? phosphore ? these aren't Human.

[TheGravemind]

This is golden. If not for Byzantine Empire, Turks would to this day crawl somewhere in Central Asia. They can't even build their own country, how would they manage to improve others?

The Ottoman empire was not successful because of Turks, but rather because of its governing ethos and ideology. The Byzantine Empire and Sassanid Empire were cleaved by this governing ethos/ideology.

[Deleted]

Literally nothing from this list is correct. You should seriously stop spewing this nonsense. It makes you look even more ridiculous than usual.

[Tierbook]

Industrialization, agricultural progression, moral progression, ethical rejuvenation, civil reconstruction, spiritual rehabilitation -- the Ottomans brought life to southern Europe. You are forever in their debt.

So you don't want to be a tool but you want to use them..... to say nothing of the fact that it was Rome that brought what most would consider civilization to that part of the world..... the Greeks as well of course.

[TheGravemind]

So you don't want to be a tool but you want to use them..... to say nothing of the fact that it was Rome that brought what most would consider civilization to that part of the world..... the Greeks as well of course.

Romans brought slavery, oppression, tyranny, inequity, discrimination, and ethnic cleansing. Non-Romans were oppressed to such an extent that it basically triggered a revolt that led to the Visigoths invading Italy. Nothing the Romans brought to the Balkans had any longevity. It was the Ottomans who civilized the Balkans.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...h_centuries.29

[Super Kami Dende]

I'm all for upholding the conventions against people who also uphold them.

but Terrorists care little for rules of war and thus should be given no such respect in return.

[Wildberry]

It seems you are confused about what fascism means.

I do have to take offense to that, considering I've read heavily upon Pre-Fascist literature, and even Fascist literature. Hell, there are even plenty of diary entries and journals from early fascist supporters that I've read.

I think it's you who has the confusion regarding fascism. I realize it's an effective buzzword to demonize something you dislike, but let's not allow that usefulness to cloud historical accuracy.

The Assadist regime is squarely within the rubric of fascism

Interesting how many historians well-versed on the subject can't agree on a specific rubric of Fascism to apply to other regimes, yet you seem to have it clearly mapped out. I'm sure you could market this insight of yours somehow.

torture techniques, racial nationalism mythos, corporate syndicalism and subversion

The torture techniques employed by Assad are simply that... torture techniques. They're not a hallmark of fascism by any means.

The Racial Nationalism is also... Well, it don't match up to what happened in Italy. On the surface there are similarities; however, Assad's racial nationalism is far more extreme and exclusive than Fascist Racial Nationalism. I suggest you look into how Fascist Italy handled race and racial nationalism before making assertions like this.

I'm all for an open discussion, but your posting history in this thread and others has shown you to be not open to honest discussion. It's a pity, because it is an interesting subject. Either way, I'm done here, maybe I'll have inspired you to go read into the subjects I outlined earlier, maybe not. Either way, it looks like you have your work cut out for you with other posters who are interested in discussions with a brick wall.

[Tierbook]

Romans brought slavery, oppression, tyranny, inequity, discrimination, and ethnic cleansing. Non-Romans were oppressed to such an extent that it basically triggered a revolt that led to the Visigoths invading Italy. Nothing the Romans brought to the Balkans had any longevity. It was the Ottomans who civilized the Balkans.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...h_centuries.29

You realize that everything you stated about Rome can be applied to the Ottoman empire correct? As far as the images above why not talk about GB at its peak. By 1913 the Ottoman Empire was called the "sick man of Europe for a reason"

[Cybran]

Romans brought slavery, oppression, tyranny, inequity, discrimination, and ethnic cleansing. Non-Romans were oppressed to such an extent that it basically triggered a revolt that led to the Visigoths invading Italy. Nothing the Romans brought to the Balkans had any longevity. It was the Ottomans who civilized the Balkans.

http://www.economist.com/news/middle...-have-and-hold




You have it mixed up. 1/4 of Istanbul used to be slaves. Black males were castrated and used as enuch guards by the Turkish ruling elite. The Ottomans were backward and held their part of the world in the middle ages until 1918. ISIS operate on the same principle as the Ottomans.

You are completely wrong on everything.

[TheGravemind]

You realize that everything you stated about Rome can be applied to the Ottoman empire correct? As far as the images above why not talk about GB at its peak. By 1913 the Ottoman Empire was called the "sick man of Europe for a reason"

It cannot be applied to the Ottomans at all as virtually all historians are in agreement to their pluralistic, tolerant, and progressive attitudes towards everything in general. All non-Ottoman citizens had to do was pay the Jizyah and the First-Blood Tax and they were given a startling amount of rights, freedoms, and economic opportunities. Non-Ottomans who were enrolled into state-tutelage through First-Blood Tax programs were also eventually drafted into the ruling state. Many Ottoman sultans and caliphs were Europeans themselves due to this reason, including Muhammad al-Faatih (whose mother was a European, and whose father was a half European).


Great Britain at its peak was nowhere near the Ottoman empire at its peak in terms of km^2 of land controlled, or of relative power. Great Britain, at best, simply relied on indigenous peoples to administer to themselves whereas the Ottomans assimilated those under their dominion into the caliphate state, and eventually made them full citizens. Great Britain was simply a colonial force for exploitation and apartheid, whereas the Ottomans were a force for liberation, dignity, and unity.

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http://www.economist.com/news/middle...-have-and-hold




You have it mixed up. 1/4 of Istanbul used to be slaves. Black males were castrated and used as enuch guards by the Turkish ruling elite. The Ottomans were backward and held their part of the world in the middle ages until 1918. ISIS operate on the same principle as the Ottomans.

You are completely wrong on everything.

We have already had this discussion exactly 1 month ago. The term "slave" in Ottoman society does not confer the same data as the word "slave" in the present version of the English language. Slaves in the Islamic world under the caliphates that allowed them (the first caliphate, the Rashidun caliphate, essentially eliminated slavery and did not have it at all) were simply those under the dominion of the caliphate state.

Mamlukes sold themselves into slavery for this reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamluk

The Mamluk empire means "the Slave Empire" in Arabic since it was governed and lead by slaves at every level.

[Tierbook]

It cannot be applied to the Ottomans at all as virtually all historians are in agreement to their pluralistic, tolerant, and progressive attitudes towards everything in general. All non-Ottoman citizens had to do was pay the Jizyah and the First-Blood Tax and they were given a startling amount of rights, freedoms, and economic opportunities. Non-Ottomans who were enrolled into state-tutelage through First-Blood Tax programs were also eventually drafted into the ruling state. Many Ottoman sultans and caliphs were Europeans themselves due to this reason, including Muhammad al-Faatih (whose mother was a European, and whose father was a half European).


Great Britain at its peak was nowhere near the Ottoman empire at its peak in terms of km^2 of land controlled, or of relative power. Great Britain, at best, simply relied on indigenous peoples to administer to themselves whereas the Ottomans assimilated those under their dominion into the caliphate state, and eventually made them full citizens. Great Britain was simply a colonial force for exploitation and apartheid, whereas the Ottomans were a force for liberation, dignity, and unity.

You're joking right? I'm sure the Armenians would love to hear this. In terms of Max land area, GB 33.7m km^2, Ottoman empire 5.2m km^2.....

[TheGravemind]

You're joking right? I'm sure the Armenians would love to hear this. In terms of Max land area, GB 33.7m km^2, Ottoman empire 5.2m km^2.....

The Armenians were given full rights under Ottoman Hanafite law and enjoyed a splendid existence. Why wouldn't they love to hear this?

The Ottoman empire was not 5.2 million squared kilometers. Algeria + western Saharawi + Tunisia + Chad + Sudan + Egypt + Libya + Palestine + Lebanon + Syria + Jordan + Arabian peninsula + western Iran + Azerbaijan + Armenia + Chechnya + Balkans + Cyprus + random med. Islands + Anatolia + Iraq + Somalia + their Indonesian dominion in Aceh province + Morocco + Mauritania + Northern Nigeria + Yemen + Oman + Ethiopia + Senegal works out to roughly ~36.8 million squared kilometers.

MUCH greater than Britain at its largest extent. Britain never had a chance.

The Mercator map is misleading, Africa is far larger than North America, which is why the Ottomans were larger than the British by a huge margin.





True size of Africa:

[Tierbook]

Not sure what that is supposed to be a map of, here is a map of the Ottoman empire at its greatest extent,


here is a map of GB at its greatest extent.

[TheGravemind]

Not sure what that is supposed to be a map of, here is a map of the Ottoman empire at its greatest extent,


here is a map of GB at its greatest extent.

That map of the Ottoman empire is completely false and misleading, and does not even show its pacific territories.

This is the actual map:



The Ottoman caliphate, at its greatest extent, was ~36.8 million square kilometers. Far larger than Great Britain.


Furthermore, it was contiguous.

Umayyad caliphate for fun: