Ideal raiding environment

[Kanadei]

hardcore would be mythical raiding at this point

Yeah I agree. If you start Mythic next week then you aren't hardcore at all, filthy casual. /logic

[Pur1tas]

The loot methods you suggest does not work in that way. A loot council is the best way to push progress as there is no point in givin a warlock loot atm as they just do so little dmg compared to mages.

EDIT:

Overall I think the way you describe the "Ideal raiding environment" is just impossible. You can either try to get shit done OR you can be the nice guy letting people attend whenever they want. In order to achieve anything you need to be sure people attend raids at least 9/10 times and hopefully even more often. If you missing out on people every other raid there is no point in trying to progress as you will just not get further and people will get frustrated really fast.

For the loot I think it is totally okay to not give loot to people that are trials. There is no point in equiping people that are not certain to be with your guild for the rest of at least this raid content. A lot of people raid because they want to get loot and if you give loot to trials over players that have been raiding with this group for several weeks/months/years this would really frustrate those players.

For the raid rules there is no point in raiding if you do not have people hitting on you if you fail. Its okay if it happens once, it might still be acceptable if it happens twice or three times. But if you are just failing at the same mechanic over and over again there should be someone calling you out. It is not about being a dick but about getting the raid going as a whole. For the no one except specific people talking during an encounter you have my fullest support. Talking should be minimized to important things.

[IxilaFA]

Raid times
Theme: I love to play but my life and job will always comes first.
Rules:
1. to be in the middle of the week and/or a sunday night because any weekend night i am more likely to be out having fun in the real world.
2. To start a couple hours after i get off work and end around a normal bed time. Can go late early in the tier but never to push past my hard cutoff. Furthermore they shouldn't normally last until my hard cutoff.
3. Attendance should be flexible because if i have a date that night i am not coming and i am not going to tell a girl i can't go out that night because i'm playing a video game.

1. The thing I don't like about this statement was using the words "fun out in the real world." For some people, life itself is incredibly stressful and WoW offers an escape from all of that. Crappy jobs, bad relationships, etc.
2. With this "ideal" schedule, you would never get any progression done, since you would be raiding about two hours a night. Besides the fact that not everyone gets off work at the same time.
3. This mentality I absolutely despise. Yes, WoW is just a game. But if you can't dedicate yourself to three or four nights a week of having WoW scheduled and nothing else, you shouldn't be joining a raiding guild. You don't have to tell girls that you can't go out because you're playing a video game; tell them you have something that requires you to attend every XX day of the week. If she doesn't understand that you have hobbies, you probably don't want to be with her anyways.

Loot:
Theme: Everyone should share, it doesn't matter who you or how long you have been here everyone has a hand in downing the boss.
Rules
1. No EPGP/DKP system that rewards long time players. This extends to loot council. These systems sound good in theory but have the same flaws as our government.
2. Unless they are being completely carried, all raiders new and old have the same chance for loot on every boss.
3. Don't be a d**k

1. This is the Shangri'la strategy of loot distribution that just doesn't work out. You can start out with the best intentions of spreading loot around the raid fairly and evenly, until you gear up people who just jump ship after getting some loot and go to more hardcore guilds. There's a reason DKP and Loot Council started to be used. Besides, words cannot express how pissed I would be if someone got a piece of loot before me when they just joined the guild that week.
2. A fair DKP system should automatically take care of this. Make everyone go through a trial period where you evaluate whether they will be a worthwhile addition to the guild or not. You can't say it's not fair for someone to not get loot during this period.

Attitude/skill
Theme: Be competent not cocky.
Rules:
1. No one should act like they are entitled to anything.
2. People should know how to play their class and be skilled in it.
3. People should do some research of the fight and how their class works going into it.
4. Instead of berating players, leaders should always encourage good behaviour and give constructive criticism.
5. Raiding should be fun, joking and laughing at our mistakes should be allowed even during raid hours.
6. Communication should be mostly silent during an attempt unless its a farm boss.

More to come i'll keep updating this as people give me good suggestions

1. Depending on status within the guild, I think it's fine if people act entitled about certain things. For example, deciding which healers to sit on a boss, you should always take the ones who have proven their worth. Don't take the newbies because you want to be "fair" especially if those newbies are holding you back.
2. Unfortunately unless you have strict restrictions about performance, you'll never get people who are 100% invested in their class and can perform exceptionally well. I have always been a great healer, but I didn't start to get involved in the advanced aspects of my class until I joined a guild where you are being monitored and competition for spots is stiff.
3. See above. Especially if they have the same mentality as your earlier points establish where raiding shouldn't be seen as a mandatory thing but as a thing you do when you want. Not enforcing certain rules and letting people get away with a "just a casual hobby" mentality ensures that they won't take the extra steps to do research into fights and classes on their off time.
4. Constructive criticism is always better than berating people, but when you see someone fail at the same mechanic ten times in a row, that's when niceties have to end and you have to start calling them out. Unless you want to not advance in progression, at which point none of the other things you expect from a guild matter anymore.
5. Raiding is extremely fun for most people when bosses are dying. When you spend more time joking and laughing than actually working on new strats and ways to improve, it means bosses are taking longer to die.
6. Agree entirely.

Basically, your points are hypocritical in what you expect from a guild. You want to be surrounded by good players, but not have to make a commitment to your guild our your guildmates. Can't have it both ways; unfortunately there is no such thing as a middle-of-the-line guild. Any guild worth its salt will have the elitists, will have the jerk officers who call you out on shit, because that's the way you succeed.

[Sorissa]

In a perfect world...

Unfortunately raiding guilds fall under two categories, hardcore unpleasant or casual friendly. The problem for someone like me who enjoys raiding and takes it seriously, I don't like or tolerate the kind of bullshit you get in hardcore guilds. New expansion is generally the worst in my experience for the dickish behaviour.

Been raiding on and off since Wrath, with most of my progress being done in Cataclysm. I just haven't found a guild with the right kind of attitudes to suit me. Not raiding Highmaul because of the crazy toxic attitude which seemed to spawn out of the launch troubles, I will probably just pvp and sit back until next tier and try and find another guild.

Hardest part of WoW: finding people that want to play the game the same way you do. If you're in a guild that doesn't you'll just get stressed.

[miffy23]

After the madness of the first week and my inevitable falling out with my guild I have come up with my list of traits an ideal raiding guild would have. I am starting this forum to get opinions on what other people would prefer in their guild.

Raid times
Theme: I love to play but my life and job will always comes first.
Rules:
1. to be in the middle of the week and/or a sunday night because any weekend night i am more likely to be out having fun in the real world.
2. To start a couple hours after i get off work and end around a normal bed time. Can go late early in the tier but never to push past my hard cutoff. Furthermore they shouldn't normally last until my hard cutoff.
3. Attendance should be flexible because if i have a date that night i am not coming and i am not going to tell a girl i can't go out that night because i'm playing a video game.

Loot:
Theme: Everyone should share, it doesn't matter who you or how long you have been here everyone has a hand in downing the boss.
Rules
1. No EPGP/DKP system that rewards long time players. This extends to loot council. These systems sound good in theory but have the same flaws as our government.
2. Unless they are being completely carried, all raiders new and old have the same chance for loot on every boss.
3. Don't be a d**k

Attitude/skill
Theme: Be competent not cocky.
Rules:
1. No one should act like they are entitled to anything.
2. People should know how to play their class and be skilled in it.
3. People should do some research of the fight and how their class works going into it.
4. Instead of berating players, leaders should always encourage good behaviour and give constructive criticism.
5. Raiding should be fun, joking and laughing at our mistakes should be allowed even during raid hours.
6. Communication should be mostly silent during an attempt unless its a farm boss.

More to come i'll keep updating this as people give me good suggestions

Tbh that's exactly what my guild is like except for:
2. People should know how to play their class and be skilled in it.
3. People should do some research of the fight and how their class works going into it.
We take several people to our raids that are barely capable and geared for the difficulty. We manage anyway and it's a laugh.

[ddsad2212]

I don't see an issue with having set raid times people need to attend, if you agree to that upon joining the guild then you should expect to attend them or be kicked. Honestly it's not hardcore to expect a 3 hours/3days a week raid schedule. Most people can put aside that time, god knows I do fuck all most nights between 7-10 anyway. Read an extra book a week maybe? But no I want some variety and raiding does that with my free time

[RyanEX]

After the madness of the first week and my inevitable falling out with my guild I have come up with my list of traits an ideal raiding guild would have. I am starting this forum to get opinions on what other people would prefer in their guild.

Raid times
Theme: I love to play but my life and job will always comes first.
Rules:
1. to be in the middle of the week and/or a sunday night because any weekend night i am more likely to be out having fun in the real world.
2. To start a couple hours after i get off work and end around a normal bed time. Can go late early in the tier but never to push past my hard cutoff. Furthermore they shouldn't normally last until my hard cutoff.
3. Attendance should be flexible because if i have a date that night i am not coming and i am not going to tell a girl i can't go out that night because i'm playing a video game.

Loot:
Theme: Everyone should share, it doesn't matter who you or how long you have been here everyone has a hand in downing the boss.
Rules
1. No EPGP/DKP system that rewards long time players. This extends to loot council. These systems sound good in theory but have the same flaws as our government.
2. Unless they are being completely carried, all raiders new and old have the same chance for loot on every boss.
3. Don't be a d**k

Attitude/skill
Theme: Be competent not cocky.
Rules:
1. No one should act like they are entitled to anything.
2. People should know how to play their class and be skilled in it.
3. People should do some research of the fight and how their class works going into it.
4. Instead of berating players, leaders should always encourage good behaviour and give constructive criticism.
5. Raiding should be fun, joking and laughing at our mistakes should be allowed even during raid hours.
6. Communication should be mostly silent during an attempt unless its a farm boss.

More to come i'll keep updating this as people give me good suggestions

Other than the DDOS attack how was the first week filled with madness and your falling out inevitable. Seems to me like there's alot we're not being told.

In a perfect world people would share and share alike. It's not a perfect world, so expecting that pally that pulled 18K dps to pass on the mace off of Koragh to the DK who barely pulled 12k is like being happy to visit the doctor/dentist. Aka not very often.

- - - Updated - - -

For the most part reasonable, but you have some unrealistic expectations. No reasonable guild is going to give a brand new recruit the same chance at loot as established players. You say "everyone has a hand in downing the boss" - most times, this isn't true. Unless the need for you was dire, most guilds would probably put you in only on farm content until you establish yourself as a reliable, well performing player. Once a boss is on farm and you just come in and follow what a guild has already worked out and perfected, you really don't have an equal hand in downing it anymore. You didn't work through the struggle and the development of the well-oiled machine that beat the encounter. Once you have proven yourself reliable enough to be part of that struggle, then you deserve equality in the consideration for that loot.

Most guilds understand flexibility in attendance, but to a point. If your attendance is lacking, there is again no reason to give you loot at the same priority as other players who have consistent attendance + performance and will be there on every progression night to put that loot to use.

The whole "I have a real life and need to tell everyone about how the game is second priority" thing always comes off as annoying. Yes, there are people who don't, but the vast majority do - it doesn't make you special. What it comes down to is when you join a scheduled raiding guild, you are forming a commitment to other people that you will be there to work with them and not waste their time. Other people who have the same real life as you, and show up to that commitment expecting that the time they set aside will be used constructively. You know the schedule beforehand and agree to it. Obviously things outside the game come up but coming into that commitment leading with that will make any guild uneasy about your reliability. You decide what are reasonable cuts into that attendance and the guild will decide whether or not you are worth those cuts.

Most of the time with things like this, with people coming in out of the gate stressing their "real life" and how they need a lot of flexibility, seem to be from people who think that their time is more valuable than those they intend to raid with. But I suppose I am making a snap judgment. I don't suspect you will find many guilds with your requirements. That said, the LFG tool for N/H could very well meet a number of them.

This.

Other than it being a dick move to join a guild, understanding the raids times and attendance requirements and claiming to be fine with them, only to give the "I have a life" song and dance on the first raid night these're also the people that have a tendency to always be raring to go on farm nights then mysteriously "having a life" when times comes for progression.

[Mazar]

OP would get kicked from my guild.

Who goes on a date and plays wow... camon.

[Zoldor]

For me the only thing I would change is our raid time. Either 1.5 hours later or 30 min earlier. Either would work. I wouldn't mind an extra night either. I have about 3 evenings I can really dedicate to uninterrupted gaming and right now my 3rd night is mainly tooling around doing things I could do anytime I play, so now its LFR night for a couple weeks for filler loots.

[Deleted]

"I want to play with dedicated people in a dedicated raid environment , but fuck , as soon as literally anything happens in the real world i'm gonna give that priority, please agree with me so i can link this to my old GM who kicked me for having 10% attendance"

-A pointless response to a pointless thread.

[Kanadei]

"I want to play with dedicated people in a dedicated raid environment , but fuck , as soon as literally anything happens in the real world i'm gonna give that priority, please agree with me so i can link this to my old GM who kicked me for having 10% attendance"

-A pointless response to a pointless thread.

So. Much. This.

[Cirque]

For the most part reasonable, but you have some unrealistic expectations. No reasonable guild is going to give a brand new recruit the same chance at loot as established players. You say "everyone has a hand in downing the boss" - most times, this isn't true. Unless the need for you was dire, most guilds would probably put you in only on farm content until you establish yourself as a reliable, well performing player. Once a boss is on farm and you just come in and follow what a guild has already worked out and perfected, you really don't have an equal hand in downing it anymore. You didn't work through the struggle and the development of the well-oiled machine that beat the encounter. Once you have proven yourself reliable enough to be part of that struggle, then you deserve equality in the consideration for that loot.

Most guilds understand flexibility in attendance, but to a point. If your attendance is lacking, there is again no reason to give you loot at the same priority as other players who have consistent attendance + performance and will be there on every progression night to put that loot to use.

The whole "I have a real life and need to tell everyone about how the game is second priority" thing always comes off as annoying. Yes, there are people who don't, but the vast majority do - it doesn't make you special. What it comes down to is when you join a scheduled raiding guild, you are forming a commitment to other people that you will be there to work with them and not waste their time. Other people who have the same real life as you, and show up to that commitment expecting that the time they set aside will be used constructively. You know the schedule beforehand and agree to it. Obviously things outside the game come up but coming into that commitment leading with that will make any guild uneasy about your reliability. You decide what are reasonable cuts into that attendance and the guild will decide whether or not you are worth those cuts.

Most of the time with things like this, with people coming in out of the gate stressing their "real life" and how they need a lot of flexibility, seem to be from people who think that their time is more valuable than those they intend to raid with. But I suppose I am making a snap judgment. I don't suspect you will find many guilds with your requirements. That said, the LFG tool for N/H could very well meet a number of them.

I don't usually say this but this was probably the best answer this thread ever will get.

Like joining a football club, or anything else that has more than just you attending and have people relying on your presence, you don't just go "jk can't come tonight". I have been leading a lot of scrubby guilds on my alts back in the days and people like you were really, really annoying. It often meant we couldn't raid at all. After the second time of this I'd usually kick them from our schedule or even guild. They would then come online and demand answers, don't we understand they have a life too? Ye, so do we, and we opted to play with our guildies and friends, we had an appointment, and you rudely skipped it.

As for loot, if you really think that you're probably very inexperienced. I will try to explain.

1) First of all, the majority of guilds suffer from the stepping-stone-issue. That is to say new raiders will join, get gear, and then gquit to go on to a better guild. This was and I assume still is a very persistent issue and THE main reason why new players in a guild don't get loot.
2) You seem to be under the impression that your individual character progression is somehow more important than the guild progression. You should not be a lootwhore and demand any equal rights to loot, because if you genuinely cared about the guild and its progress, you would understand that your chestpiece went to the other mage because it would help you kill the next boss easier. This attitude is what most guilds don't want, these selfish players who think the world or guild revolves around them, be it with time schedule or loot.
3) As quoted dude said, likely you're joining them on farm. You had no hand in getting that farm boss on farm, so by your own argument you deserve not even a goldpiece from it as you're just tagging along at this point.

Anyway, good luck finding a guild.

[markdall]

Theme: Everyone should share, it doesn't matter who you or how long you have been here everyone has a hand in downing the boss.

Personal Loot 100% of the time, unchangeable, would be a dream come true.

[Pur1tas]

Personal Loot 100% of the time, unchangeable, would be a dream come true.

More like a nightmare

[shammypie]

Whats hardcore? 3x3 hours? 2x4 hours? You can get decent progress with those times and 9 hours is less than most people spend vegetating infront of the tv a week. You seem to just want to waltz in and out of teams when you find someone to shag.

i find it funny how far everyone has taken one of my rules as the definition of my character or attitude. Furthermore I didn't say that there wouldn't be progression. Semi-hardcore raiding doe exist in more guilds than you think. Most hardcore people write them off as casual or as scrubs. Most casuals think they are hardcore guilds. Truly what it comes down to is having flexibility in your raid. Casuals are all flexible without really being able to do anything. Hardcore are completely rigid without really being any fun. It takes a while but you can usually find guilds that are in-between. They don't advertise and you won't really know until you join them that which way they lean or if they sit in the middle just right. The point is and I will make it one last time is that people prioritize this game way too much in their lives. The ones that don't tend not to have the skill level to get things done. I like to live in the middle ground (something you don't seem to think exists). I don't want to have to say no to girl/friend/group because every tuesday-thursday from now until forever is booked with a video game. I'm not saying i will miss every week but i can usually count on at least 2x a month being gone. If you read and understand the intent behind the other rules specifications you will understand that this will a great deal of members to be gone at any time without really slowing down progress that much. You also don't have to make excuses as to why you weren't there or suffer a penalty.

Like i said this is an ideal format and if you are all about that guild progress you wouldn't understand.