Rogue thoughts on the developer interview (finalbossTV)

[Lillemus]

Hello fellow rogues!

I've seen a few scattered remarks in different threads about the interview but thought it would be a good idea to gather them in one place, and from a rogue perspective address some of the issues brought up (or left out). I will, as is tradition, start with my own. It should also be noted that this interview is based on PvE - so PvP balance is a topic for another thread (however intertwined those two are)

Spec balance.

Rogues seem to be in a very good place in terms of the balance between specs - all 3 specs perform equally in raid environments according to the different logs, with some outliers on heavy cleave fights. I feel that this is a positive change, that no single rogue spec seems mandatory is a good thing.

Class balance

This is where it becomes a bit more worrying - in the interview it was stated that rogues were in a good place overall. This worried me, rogues are at the bottom of the pack along with warlocks in the logs - this is compared to the best specs of other classes. But I personally found it a bit worrying that they found a melee dps class that brings little to no utility on boss fights as "being in a good place" when ranking amongst the lowest dps.
They talked about wanting everyone to be in the middle of the pack - which I am fine with, but seeing rogues being 10-15% below the top dps without expressing the need to adjust these classes is NOT a class that is in the middle of the pack, it's in the bottom.
They seemed to blame the new combo points system and that it took a bit of getting used to - something that seems completely off mark considering how much simpler target switching has become - and it took me a total of 5 minutes to get used to the new system.

Talents

There was a lot of talk about talents for other classes being mandatory - a subject that was beautifully skipped for rogues again. This is an issue that affects a lot of classes - but for rogues it seems to never be talked about. We have a lot of survivability based talents - which is fine, they actually offer some variation to a certain extent. But when we reach our supposedly most interesting talents at level 90 and 100 this comes to a screeching halt, and it seems the reason for this is that these would be our "output" talent tiers.
On level 90 there is the only obvious choice of anticipation, in the interview it was mentioned that if a 90+% of certain class /spec pick the same talent in a tier, it's a problem - for PvE it's 100% anticipation - the other 2 aren't even open for discussion.
On level 100, although left with more options, it's shadow reflection for Sub 100% of the time - and by the looks of single target bosses, shadow reflection for Assassination and Combat as well on single target. Assassination and Combat find more openings - in terms of AoE fights, as the 2 other talents offer increased potency in AoE situation.
This I consider a problem - having 100% only viable talent on one tier and the next tier also being (close to) 100% for single target is an issue, especially according to their own standards.

Summary

It feels to me that the devs are out of touch with the rogue class - as many of the issues that they mention is a problem for other classes is fine when it comes to rogues. And the statement that rogues need to "get used to" the new combo point system was the most far fetched excuse for rogues underperforming ever.

So, how do you feel/think of the statements made in this interview in relation to rogues?

[dak1]

On level 100, although left with more options, it's shadow reflection for Sub 100% of the time

Are PvE Sub Rogues really taking SR? It doesn't benefit from Find Weakness or SV so it's pretty terrible. Even a lot of PvP Sub Rogues are taking Venom Rush (it's that or DfA).

[smana7]

PvP rogues don't take SR because the reflection copies your stuns too which mess up things if I remember correctly.

SR should still be the best talent for Sub in PvE.

[Shigma]

For me, i gave up with my rogue when MoP started. It didn't feel fun at all for me.

When WoD pre-expansion patch came and they implemented the new combo system, wow, i had a blast again with my good ol' rogue, to the extent i nearly never used it in MoP to becoming my main at WoD launch. So yeah, they really adressed lots of issues, and now the class is in a really sweet spot overall in PvE mechanic-wise for me.

When you reach lvl 100, well, it could get some kind of damage buff. But the problem, as always, would be how this would affect PvP. I'm actually playing more PvP now and i'm really enjoying my class, and i feel it's in a really good spot, so maybe plain damage buff could become and issue, so i can understand why this could be pesky to ballance.

Anyway, you know they really did a good job on rogues when you can enjoy your class playing every spec, PvE (or PvP to some extent). I guess in the end Sub is a bit ahead the line.

But still, i also agree the 2 last rows of major talents need a review. I never switched them the first time i picked both, since others for me didn't feel appealling at all (For PvE). For PvP, rogue has many options overall, and because they maintained so much CC, you can't just add some IWINBUTTON here because it could totally make the class broken.

I'd also like to say i'm really happy with so many options for glyphs for PvP. And since now you can go outside draenor looking for some open-world PVP, which happens more than before since there are no flying mounts, i'd say it's a really good time to play the class.

Then again, i want to see how rogues scale this time, as we all know how they start to ramp as the expansions go on. Specially if we get too much multistrike. So all i can say is, i hope they dont end meshing up things.

[Deleted]

The combo point system is the same as a lot of other classes ppl have played alts also 90 percent of rogues have asked for this change spice like every damn expansions I completely agree but they have more pressing issues didn't you read they need to buff frost mages because there not happy

The combo point system is amazing and has increased mobility a lot on add swapping and rupture management I put the low numbers on sims down to bad scaling in low gear and tbh I hope I'm right or rogue will be overlooked for half of x pac

Nice post tho hopefully blizz devs will give more than a sentence on next update on rogues

[Lillemus]

Are PvE Sub Rogues really taking SR? It doesn't benefit from Find Weakness or SV so it's pretty terrible. Even a lot of PvP Sub Rogues are taking Venom Rush (it's that or DfA).

According to the top parsing rogues (and also sims) SR does come out ahead - by a fair margin at that. Venom rush is better for multi target fights - but at this point both combat and assassination is ahead. I've looked at Kargath and Butcher hc logs for the single target data - and ALL specs go for SR on the single target fights.

- - - Updated - - -

But still, i also agree the 2 last rows of major talents need a review. I never switched them the first time i picked both, since others for me didn't feel appealling at all (For PvE). For PvP, rogue has many options overall, and because they maintained so much CC, you can't just add some IWINBUTTON here because it could totally make the class broken.

I realise that putting in "OP" talents would obviously not work - but it seems that devs are simply too afraid to make rogues even powerful again in PvP (not OP mind you) they have no problems doing this with other classes, I suppose this is based in the age old hatred for rogues and their power. But for PvP the way to go is Marked for death (and in some rare cases anticipation - maybe anticipation has become better with the combo point changes). But tweaking the numbers to actually make all options viable I daresay would not break PvP. But again, the most distressing thing is them stating that everything is fine when rogues have the exact same issues that for other classes are apparently considered class breaking.

Then again, i want to see how rogues scale this time, as we all know how they start to ramp as the expansions go on. Specially if we get too much multistrike. So all i can say is, i hope they dont end meshing up things.

"Haste will fix it" . Rogues scale very well, and Blizzard always adjusts for this (Sub rogues starting on 30% agi in MoP and ending on 15% being a prime example) but I'd very much like that Blizzard makes the current incarnation of the class playable, and not design the class around future numbers.

[Drakindar]

On level 90 there is the only obvious choice of anticipation, in the interview it was mentioned that if a 90+% of certain class /spec pick the same talent in a tier, it's a problem - for PvE it's 100% anticipation - the other 2 aren't even open for discussion.

I don't really agree with this 100% While I feel that Sub and Assassination will probably use anticipation 90% of the time. At current gear levels I find that Mark of death is reasonably viable for Combat considering its low haste levels. Particularly on fights that have a lot of add's to kill and it is VERY useful in 5mans.

On level 100, although left with more options, it's shadow reflection for Sub 100% of the time - and by the looks of single target bosses, shadow reflection for Assassination and Combat as well on single target. Assassination and Combat find more openings - in terms of AoE fights, as the 2 other talents offer increased potency in AoE situation.

Again, I do not 100% agree with this. Death from Above, in its current form, whether it is a bug or otherwise, is generating combo points per targets hit and its single target damage is reasonably comparable. I have seen good numbers come out of it on single target Multiple targets I feel like it is ahead of SR by a decent margin. On top of that DfA has movement capabilities in that can help you avoid damage, (or alternatively increase your damage taken if used incorrectly or badly timed).

All in all, I feel like rogues are okay for the most part. Though I wouldn't have complained about a small buff, maybe 5%, I don't feel like it was absolutely required.

[dak1]

According to the top parsing rogues (and also sims) SR does come out ahead - by a fair margin at that.

I thought the sims were making incorrect assumptions which were giving wildly inaccurate results.

[Lillemus]

I don't really agree with this 100% While I feel that Sub and Assassination will probably use anticipation 90% of the time. At current gear levels I find that Mark of death is reasonably viable for Combat considering its low haste levels. Particularly on fights that have a lot of add's to kill and it is VERY useful in 5mans.

It is true, add fights do open up for marked - and I think the main focus of this interview was raid performance though. I might not have given Marked it's due respect, but with marked you also run the risk of wasting a revealing strike proc when going from 4 to 5 CP though - that seems to be a trade off that is worth it (for now).

Again, I do not 100% agree with this. Death from Above, in its current form, whether it is a bug or otherwise, is generating combo points per targets hit and its single target damage is reasonably comparable. I have seen good numbers come out of it on single target Multiple targets I feel like it is ahead of SR by a decent margin. On top of that DfA has movement capabilities in that can help you avoid damage, (or alternatively increase your damage taken if used incorrectly or badly timed).

All in all, I feel like rogues are okay for the most part. Though I wouldn't have complained about a small buff, maybe 5%, I don't feel like it was absolutely required.

DfA does pull ahead on AoE fights - and as I mentioned the other two do offer increased potency in AoE situations. DfA seems to be a bit more viable for single target combat as well, I suspect this is due to the fact that SR gains nothing from the deepest of insights.

- - - Updated - - -

I thought the sims were making incorrect assumptions which were giving wildly inaccurate results.

They could well be doing that - also why I looked more at the top performing rogues instead of only sims. And although I obviously haven't looked at all of them, every single sub / muti rogue uses SR.

[Mibzo]

One thing I am sad to see as it is now is; a pure dps class being one of the classes lowest on the dps charts. A class made only for dps can't keep up with other classes. Makes me a sad panda. :-(

[threads]

I was disappointed when they talked about Rogues. Mentioned useless talents, but rogue data looks fine. Didn't like positional requirements (Kris said at one point he played feral lol), rogues look fine. Then the weird response he gave "I think rogues are still busy getting use to their combo points now huehue". Um yea ok.

[Feali]

The main problem is that they have fixed ideas of how they adjust classes and talents and abilities and stuff like positional requirements but THROW IT ALL OUT OF THE FUCKING WINDOW when it comes to Rogue.
Look at talents, Backstab or CD stacking.

[Marek]

I agree, the getting used to the new combo point system is garbage.

Those who used to use Redirect no longer have to...that takes a lot of getting used to...

Those of us who couldn't be bothered to gain a few extra DPS from using redirect now automatically have that provided, giving us more CP than before....that takes a lot of getting used to...

What takes getting used to is watching that energy bar fill up like molasses.

[Deleted]

They clearly don't discuss rogues as much as they need to.

Their focus is on a few favoured classes, and thats clear to see, with the activity and posts made about those classes. (Alarming ratio between boomkins/warriors and the rest in beta).

They have no idea what they want to do with rogues.

[Banzad]

On level 90 there is the only obvious choice of anticipation, in the interview it was mentioned that if a 90+% of certain class /spec pick the same talent in a tier, it's a problem - for PvE it's 100% anticipation - the other 2 aren't even open for discussion.

That's just not true. There are many opportunities to make MfD worthwhile, and in current sims it is simming higher single target. It also has a lot of value on fights like Brackenspore, depending on the speed your group is killing adds.

Overall, I think rogues are fine. They may be lower on the charts, but we aren't largely being sat. I'd obviously love buffs, but they aren't necessary. There are rogues topping their meters on WCL. We just need to up our game.

[Deleted]

My biggest disappointment (besides the laughable combo point thing) had more to do with the way they talked about rogues once the topic was brought up. "And finally" *snickering* Rogues, who wonder if they will get some love *everybody laughing*. Somehow this class seems to draw some sort of resentment by people not playing it.
On the topic of the class itself I would have to say that I'm quite happy right now. My single target DPS is looking good and in cleave heavy fights there's always the option to go Combat.
I also have to disagree on the topic of Anticipation being the only valuable lvl 90 talent. Imho it's only useful for Assassination and MfD is way better for combat and sub, since shadowblade is gone and there is less danger of losing CPs (or nearly none at all as Sub).
Lvl 100 talents are a bit boring, VR is a passive, SR just gets makroed into SD. DfA I actually like quite a lot but is only worth it as Combat.
Overall, I'm quite happy and the only real gripes I have are more related to the way the class seems to be viewed by the devs and the "special" treatment we seem to get (aka Fun from behind).

[Deleted]

Talents are still shit, bugs still need fixing. That said, I think some people are still looking at sims and not the actual logs. Rogues are definitely not at the bottom, and they are up there in cleave fights, which highmaul has a lot of. Haven't tried subtlety, but I like how the other two specs feel, especially assassination. Very smooth. Combat is a bit more clunky but it's not as mindless as it used to be, if you play it right and have the right gear you WON'T be at the bottom.

[Packing an i5]

im still perplexed as to why Warriors have an entire row that changes based on spec even between arms and fury and Rogues do Not.

Hunters have 1 talent that changes based on spec a pure dps class with no different resources between specs.

Warlocks a pure dps class have talents that changed based on spec.

Only Dps that was left out in the cold was rogues and deathknights.

Our talents and not just 90-100 talents are very boring and there is a mandatory talent on every tier.

For pve Its anticipation or bust and pvp its marked for death or bust that leaves Shuriken toss out in the cold. It costs too much energy and doesnt apply the ranged snare like it use to by means of applying non lethal poisons. I say dump the auto attack thing, bring it back down to 20 e, buff the damage slightly and allow it to apply non lethal poison once again.

IMO our only interesting talent in the whole "tree" if u can call it that anymore more of a grid is Marked for Death. Its very versatile, low cooldown time and makes a cool sound "cold Blood sound"

Another busted Tier is the survivability tier with cheat death, leeching and feint. Feint is already used heavily in pve to avoid damage from aoe so why not take elusiveness for the 30% damage reduction on demand? Some might see it as a dps loss if they spam it too much or dont want to worry about it so they choose cheat death which was nerfed unbelievable for wod.

Leeching poison is good even maybe mandatory for leveling and soloing certain old raids but other than that it sucks. CDeath or elusiveness is better for pve and elusiveness is basicly mandatory for pvp.

I hate using feint for pvp because we are so drained from dps rotation and using stuns and gouge already having something else to spam that costs energy is lame especially if you use burst of speed.

Purely from a pvp casual perspective. I dont raid anymore and havent for some time.

I think my dps is fine its not OP or too weak but our talents dont have much of an impact and thats a fact.

[daspels]

Rogues seem to be in a very good place in terms of the balance between specs - all 3 specs perform equally in raid environments according to the different logs, with some outliers on heavy cleave fights. I feel that this is a positive change, that no single rogue spec seems mandatory is a good thing.
They seemed to blame the new combo points system

Its the same old story over again. "Our DPS isnt up there cause we need to adapt to the new CP system.." I dont even know what to say anymore. Its like there isnt anyone at HQ even playing rogues.

[Feali]

Numbers are not the problem. They never were.

But: If I have to switch my specc JUST TO BE ABLE to trap the elite in Nagrand for my barn because Blizzard is too brainsmashingly stupid and lazy to remove the positional requirements from Backtab, then we have a problem. And that's just one of the many.