Another Class idea: Tinkerer

[Al Gorefiend]

Hey look, another person suggesting that engineering be turned into a class. No, just use the gnomish/goblin garage and be satisfied. Plenty of "tinker" stuff there.

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because rogues can tank, heal, and call upon celestials/mists for boons and buffs? Tinker is a section in the engineering profession book.

See post below that one. Also I don't support tinkers as OP or Teriz sell them. I want a tech inspired class that uses ranged weapons. Theyd be as similar to hunters as mages are to warlocks. Engineering and a tech class can exist at the same time, they don't need to have anything in common apart from both using explosives and machinery (and if you think two aspects of the game can't share the same style of offensive arts, you may as well argue that fire mages and destro locks are too similar)

You people need to stop getting so damn offended over this. There's no war between class ideas, lighten the hell up. A ranged class that isn't hunter can exist, stop with the "IT USE RANGE IT HUNTER!" nonsense

[Tenant]

I don't buy the whole "Tinkerers would just be Hunters with Engineering" argument. That's cheap, and not very imaginative at all. I don't remember a time I've ever seen a hunter actively using his gadgets and such, especially in combat. And even if I did, they'd largely still just be a Hunter to me; if I see them shooting at range and likely with an animal companion fighting alongside them, they're a Hunter first, and anything else secondary.

Professions don't create that "identity" so much like a class does, and something like a Tinkerer immediately has the potential to carve their own identity from the get-go, relative to all the other classes, if they're creative enough with the idea.

That being said, I'm not sure I like OP's emphasis on guns and "pistols" so much. Off the top of my head, I think the focus for a Tinkerer should definitely be those huge, robotic backpacks like in the pic OP used.

Gazlowe in Heroes of the Storm is already packing something like that, and while it doesn't have to be as ridiculous and large like his, I think Tinkerer ideation should be focused on these, and stuff like what type of weapons they'd use or what sort of specializations they'd have could come later when the Tinkerer's "identity" is really hammered in.

[Deleted]

Most Tinker or Engineer like classes are pretty annoying is most games. TF2 Engineer.. *shudders*

[Deleted]

Looks like a goblin hunter with engineering

That made me realize why Gnome Hunters would be a nice thing to add. No other way to play a gnome with a gun.

[Ielenia]

and I'm not gonna argue about how Engineers and Tinkers are not the same and the difference between a role that a class fulfills and a role designed to be filled by a profession. (it was explained time and time again, in detail, in previous class threads.)

It was also previously explain that, before everything in class design, it's theme must be unique, and unfortunately, it's not, due to adventuring engineers in the game. Also, if you didn't want to argue, why bring it up in the first place?

[Elim Garak]

How about a class squish instead?

Class one - plate melee (Tanks + Melee + Heal): Warrior + Paladin + DK = Warlord
Class two - cloth caster (Heal + Ranged + Tank): Mage + Prist + Warlock = Sorcerer
Class three - leather melee (Heal + Melee + Ranged + Tank): Druid + Rogue + Monk = Druid
Class four - mail weirdos (Heal + Melee + Ranged + Tank): Hunter + Shaman = Ranger

[Al Gorefiend]

It was also previously explain that, before everything in class design, it's theme must be unique, and unfortunately, it's not, due to adventuring engineers in the game. Also, if you didn't want to argue, why bring it up in the first place?

If warlocks were a new feature added in WoD, would you argue their theme is too similar to Mage? A *class* that uses explosives, mines, robotics and stuff as a means to fight in a world full of various heroes with different styles of fighting is awesome. Using a grenade once every 2 minutes that deal negligible damage isn't fitting the theme of a tech head gunslingin' bomb throwin' cigar smokin' badass. Take a walk through a goblin city or gnome settlement, or look at the Iron Horde. Technology is too important of a theme in WoW to banish it to a profession and call it good.

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I don't buy the whole "Tinkerers would just be Hunters with Engineering" argument. That's cheap, and not very imaginative at all. I don't remember a time I've ever seen a hunter actively using his gadgets and such, especially in combat. And even if I did, they'd largely still just be a Hunter to me; if I see them shooting at range and likely with an animal companion fighting alongside them, they're a Hunter first, and anything else secondary.

Professions don't create that "identity" so much like a class does, and something like a Tinkerer immediately has the potential to carve their own identity from the get-go, relative to all the other classes, if they're creative enough with the idea.

That being said, I'm not sure I like OP's emphasis on guns and "pistols" so much. Off the top of my head, I think the focus for a Tinkerer should definitely be those huge, robotic backpacks like in the pic OP used.
Gazlowe in Heroes of the Storm is already packing something like that, and while it doesn't have to be as ridiculous and large like his, I think Tinkerer ideation should be focused on these, and stuff like what type of weapons they'd use or what sort of specializations they'd have could come later when the Tinkerer's "identity" is really hammered in.

Spot on. "Tinkers" or whatever you want to call them are already a part of WoW lore. People need only embrace what could potentially be a great class.

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How about a class squish instead?

Class one - plate melee (Tanks + Melee + Heal): Warrior + Paladin + DK = Warlord
Class two - cloth caster (Heal + Ranged + Tank): Mage + Prist + Warlock = Sorcerer
Class three - leather melee (Heal + Melee + Ranged + Tank): Druid + Rogue + Monk = Druid
Class four - mail weirdos (Heal + Melee + Ranged + Tank): Hunter + Shaman = Ranger

No way man. Sorcerer sounds way too similar to the enchanting profession. Enchanter is another word for sorcerer after all

[Tenant]

If warlocks were a new feature added in WoD, would you argue their theme is too similar to Mage? A *class* that uses explosives, mines, robotics and stuff as a means to fight in a world full of various heroes with different styles of fighting is awesome. Using a grenade once every 2 minutes that deal negligible damage isn't fitting the theme of a tech head gunslingin' bomb throwin' cigar smokin' badass. Take a walk through a goblin city or gnome settlement, or look at the Iron Horde. Technology is too important of a theme in WoW to banish it to a profession and call it good.

This guy gets it.

A class makes up a very large percentage of your character's identity, and there's a lot of identity that a Tinkerer/Technology-based class could fill that others couldn't. Professions, even one as unique as Engineering, just don't cut it in the grand scheme.

My Warrior is an Engineer, but while I have my fair share of gadgets I can pull out, I'm still the Warrior first. The weapon master, the raging barbarian, the grizzled protector. Especially in combat, THAT'S what my warrior is first before anything else. He can dabble in gizmos and gadgets on the side, but he's still a Warrior.

Other warriors dabble in Enchanting, inherently a magical study, but that doesn't make them finger-waggling Mages; they are also still Warriors.

A class like the Tinkerer can share this same sort of depth as well.

[Ielenia]

If warlocks were a new feature added in WoD, would you argue their theme is too similar to Mage? A *class* that uses explosives, mines, robotics and stuff as a means to fight in a world full of various heroes with different styles of fighting is awesome. Using a grenade once every 2 minutes that deal negligible damage isn't fitting the theme of a tech head gunslingin' bomb throwin' cigar smokin' badass. Take a walk through a goblin city or gnome settlement, or look at the Iron Horde. Technology is too important of a theme in WoW to banish it to a profession and call it good.

Except Warlocks have access to a school of magic that mages cannot access (Shadow), have a myriad of powerful minions at their disposal (while mages only have one, and only in one of three specs), can summon more minions for a time, and can enslave other demons to do their bidding. As for the Tinker? Lobbing bombs/grenades? Engineering, or Hunter traps. Guns? Hunter. Minions? Hunter and Warlock. Turrets? Shamans. And remember that 'advanced' technology, in the universe of Warcraft, is supposed to be big and clumsy, especially on the 'good' side (ours).

[Deleted]

Except Warlocks have access to a school of magic that mages cannot access (Shadow), have a myriad of powerful minions at their disposal (while mages only have one, and only in one of three specs), can summon more minions for a time, and can enslave other demons to do their bidding. As for the Tinker? Lobbing bombs/grenades? Engineering, or Hunter traps. Guns? Hunter. Minions? Hunter and Warlock. Turrets? Shamans. And remember that 'advanced' technology, in the universe of Warcraft, is supposed to be big and clumsy, especially on the 'good' side (ours).

Nothing in this game really fulfills the fantasy of a Tinker. Hunter + engineering is the closest you can come, but that still isn't really what a Tinker class would look like if Blizzard would ever put a Tinker into the game. Throwing a bomb once in a while doesn't make me feel like a Tinker.

As for calling shaman totems "turrets". Sure. But then monks got their statues, and they are kind of totems as well.

[fixx]

If warlocks were a new feature added in WoD, would you argue their theme is too similar to Mage?

You don't understand what the word "theme" means. Please educate yourself on the subject before making further posts.


Mage's theme is learning the laws of magic through years of study and using the understanding of the underlying principles to work miracles. Warlock's theme is making a deal with some creatures from the dark side to give him power for the tiny little cost of the soul (and body). Two classes with distinctive enough theme can exist in the same game quite easily without problems in the overlap department even if the gameplay is fairly similar.

Both engineer and tinker on the other hand make shit that goes boom when thrown/shoot at the enemy. Demon Hunter and Hunter has the exact same problem. DH is just hunting and killing one type of creatures while Hunter can do 'em all. DH is just a subset of Hunter class thematically.

You might've had a case with your argument if you claimed priest and paladin are thematically too similar out of current classes because both are religious zealots and channel the divine powers, but with the mage vs warlock comparison you proved you have no clue wtf you're talking about and are doing apples vs oranges comparison out of ignorance.

[Tenant]

You don't understand what the word "theme" means. Please educate yourself on the subject before making further posts.


Mage's theme is learning the laws of magic through years of study and using the understanding of the underlying principles to work miracles. Warlock's theme is making a deal with some creatures from the dark side to give him power for the tiny little cost of the soul (and body). Two classes with distinctive enough theme can exist in the same game quite easily without problems in the overlap department even if the gameplay is fairly similar.

Both engineer and tinker on the other hand make shit that goes boom when thrown/shoot at the enemy. Demon Hunter and Hunter has the exact same problem. DH is just hunting and killing one type of creatures while Hunter can do 'em all. DH is just a subset of Hunter class thematically.

You might've had a case with your argument if you claimed priest and paladin are thematically too similar out of current classes because both are religious zealots and channel the divine powers, but with the mage vs warlock comparison you proved you have no clue wtf you're talking about and are doing apples vs oranges comparison out of ignorance.

Say whatever you want about comparing Mages and Warlocks, or Priests and Paladins, but the only thing that matters here (to me) is if a class can stand on its own, and a concept like the Tinkerer is something I think definitely can.

You're comparing classes with each other, but you're comparing something like the Tinkerer to a profession. There's no way to compare a class to a profession; the class is the single largest identifying factor to any player character. It defines how you play for the rest of the game. Professions are just jobs; skills your character has that lets them craft items and trade goods.

You can lob a rocket at someone every once in a while, but you'd either be putting professions on too-high of a pedestal or are just plain lying if you think the occasional rocket or something suddenly makes your character into something what others imagine to be a Tinkerer.

And I think that's the problem with threads like this; there's a conflict of imaginations here. Some have a clear idea in their head what a class like a Tinkerer could be, while others have a different idea; A group of people who hit a wall when trying to justify their existence, and others who just don't get it or want it.

The only thing I'm vouching for is that a technology-based class definitely has room to carve their own identity with other classes. Call them whatever you want, let them have any combination of guns, pistols, shields, mines, turrets, rockets, cannons, grenades, claws, robots, drones, giant robot backpacks, anything else in-between, anything else I can't think of, or none at all. It's all inherently possible: Blizzard made unique animations for the monk, for every race, to push the fantasy of what it meant to be a Monk, so the only hurdle I see a class like the Tinkerer has is if they are creative enough to make them stand out, work, and have them be fun and balanced.

[Deleted]

You don't understand what the word "theme" means. Please educate yourself on the subject before making further posts.


Mage's theme is learning the laws of magic through years of study and using the understanding of the underlying principles to work miracles. Warlock's theme is making a deal with some creatures from the dark side to give him power for the tiny little cost of the soul (and body). Two classes with distinctive enough theme can exist in the same game quite easily without problems in the overlap department even if the gameplay is fairly similar.

Both engineer and tinker on the other hand make shit that goes boom when thrown/shoot at the enemy. Demon Hunter and Hunter has the exact same problem. DH is just hunting and killing one type of creatures while Hunter can do 'em all. DH is just a subset of Hunter class thematically.

You might've had a case with your argument if you claimed priest and paladin are thematically too similar out of current classes because both are religious zealots and channel the divine powers, but with the mage vs warlock comparison you proved you have no clue wtf you're talking about and are doing apples vs oranges comparison out of ignorance.

Engineers also make useful tools, it's not all about making things go boom. That's goblin engineering, mainly.

Demon Hunters are also not a subset of Hunters. Demon Hunters hunt demons, often humanoid, intelligent creatures. Hunters don't hunt everything, they hunt beasts. It's a very different theme. For Demon Hunters, there's almost an idealistic reason to hunt demons. They want to rid the world of them. Hunters don't want to kill all beasts, because they think they are evil. Being a Demon Hunter means being part of a sect, a dark cult, that wants to rid the world of demons, using their own powers against them. Being a Hunter means shooting and trapping animals, and sometimes, taming them and caring for them.

[Tenant]

Engineers also make useful tools, it's not all about making things go boom. That's goblin engineering, mainly.

Demon Hunters are also not a subset of Hunters. Demon Hunters hunt demons, often humanoid, intelligent creatures. Hunters don't hunt everything, they hunt beasts. It's a very different theme. For Demon Hunters, there's almost an idealistic reason to hunt demons. They want to rid the world of them. Hunters don't want to kill all beasts, because they think they are evil. Being a Demon Hunter means being part of a sect, a dark cult, that wants to rid the world of demons, using their own powers against them. Being a Hunter means shooting and trapping animals, and sometimes, taming them and caring for them.

It's all about class-identity at the end of the day, and whether or not they can stand on their own. I'm not completely familiar with Demon Hunters in lore, but I know that they'd inherently be very different than what you'd normally associate a Hunter as.

The way I see it, implementing a Demon Hunter class would pretty much be selling the idea that we'd finally be able to be our own Illidan; dual-wielding warblades, just like a certain pair of Warglaives people like to farm for so much. That's about all I can think of myself, but I can see the appeal.

[Ielenia]

Nothing in this game really fulfills the fantasy of a Tinker. Hunter + engineering is the closest you can come, but that still isn't really what a Tinker class would look like if Blizzard would ever put a Tinker into the game. Throwing a bomb once in a while doesn't make me feel like a Tinker.

There are a lot of concepts that the current WoW classes do not fulfill, yet cannot be added to WoW for a variety of reasons, like not fitting the theme, or too close in concept to an existing class or profession. I also understand that you may not feel like you're playing a Tinker class if you are playing a warrior/hunter/whatever with the engineering profession, but the concept of a tinker(er) class overlaps too much in theme and concept with various other existing features in the game.

As for calling shaman totems "turrets". Sure. But then monks got their statues, and they are kind of totems as well.

Except the statues are not something integral to the Monk's theme and concept, like the Shaman is. Two out of three specs have one statue, while all three specs of shamans have a myriad of totems.

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but you're comparing something like the Tinkerer to a profession.

Because, as stated on the very first line of the post you quoted, we're talking theme. And, theme-wise, the 'tinker' and the engineer have no distinction, at all. Both develop, create, research and utilize all sorts of strange and wondrous technological creations, from mechs to guns to bombs to teleporters. Thematically, they are one and the same.

[Deleted]

There are a lot of concepts that the current WoW classes do not fulfill, yet cannot be added to WoW for a variety of reasons, like not fitting the theme, or too close in concept to an existing class or profession. I also understand that you may not feel like you're playing a Tinker class if you are playing a warrior/hunter/whatever with the engineering profession, but the concept of a tinker(er) class overlaps too much in theme and concept with various other existing features in the game.

I really don't see that overlap. Other than the mechanical theme shared with the engineering profession, and maybe the use of a gun shared with hunters, I really don't see it. Sharing weapons with hunters could also be a point in its favour. Get more classes to use that weapon.

Except the statues are not something integral to the Monk's theme and concept, like the Shaman is. Two out of three specs have one statue, while all three specs of shamans have a myriad of totems.

So? Who says Tinkers need 4 different categories of turrets. One or two totems might be fine. Point is in essence monk statues and shaman totems are the same thing. A stationary thing you throw on the ground that then does something. No reason to make them exactly like totems, but having a couple of turrets with different functions would work perfectly fine.

[Tenant]

Except the statues are not something integral to the Monk's theme and concept, like the Shaman is. Two out of three specs have one statue, while all three specs of shamans have a myriad of totems.

So it's a non-issue than.

Who's to say a Tinkerer or something couldn't also have their own "turret" they could place down? Who's to say it also wouldn't be some sort of spec-specific ability? It surely wouldn't be the only thing they could do, so they wouldn't be encroaching on "shaman territory" or anything. But than again, totems aren't the only thing Shamen do either.

[Ielenia]

I really don't see that overlap. Other than the mechanical theme shared with the engineering profession, and maybe the use of a gun shared with hunters, I really don't see it. Sharing weapons with hunters could also be a point in its favour. Get more classes to use that weapon.

Azeroth is a world. A world with a history, and people living in it. Inside that world (forget game mechanics), can you differentiate the engineer and the tinker? What sets them apart?

So? Who says Tinkers need 4 different categories of turrets. One or two totems might be fine. Point is in essence monk statues and shaman totems are the same thing. A stationary thing you throw on the ground that then does something. No reason to make them exactly like totems, but having a couple of turrets with different functions would work perfectly fine.

And... what purpose would they have? After all, what the Monk statues do, the shamans totems cannot do, and vice-versa. So what would the tinker turrets do that cannot be done by any existing totems/statues?

[Notshauna]

Except Warlocks have access to a school of magic that mages cannot access (Shadow), have a myriad of powerful minions at their disposal (while mages only have one, and only in one of three specs), can summon more minions for a time, and can enslave other demons to do their bidding. As for the Tinker? Lobbing bombs/grenades? Engineering, or Hunter traps. Guns? Hunter. Minions? Hunter and Warlock. Turrets? Shamans. And remember that 'advanced' technology, in the universe of Warcraft, is supposed to be big and clumsy, especially on the 'good' side (ours).

That's a false equivalence as you're trying to compare Mages and Warlocks now to an undeveloped class. You have to compare it to how Mages and Warlocks were seen before WoW to make an equal comparison. And there wasn't a distinction, a warlock was simply a term used for a mage that used fel magic, there was absolutely no reason to believe that Warlocks and Mages had enough design space to be two separate classes. The same can be said for Paladins and Priests.

Truth is the reason why you and Teriz disagree endlessly is because you both make the exact same arguments to try to convince the other that you're right, when you can see why there could be a Demon Hunter class and not Tinker and him vice versa.

[Ielenia]

That's a false equivalence as you're trying to compare Mages and Warlocks now to an undeveloped class. You have to compare it to how Mages and Warlocks were seen before WoW to make an equal comparison. And there wasn't a distinction, a warlock was simply a term used for a mage that used fel magic, there was absolutely no reason to believe that Warlocks and Mages had enough design space to be two separate classes. The same can be said for Paladins and Priests.

While I'll grant you your first point, about mages and warlocks, I will state that you are wrong with your second point, about priests and paladins. There are countless games that have priests and paladins, from table-top games to computer/console games, that have very defined and unique paladin/priests divisions. There is no game/story/whatever that defines priests and paladins as 'the same thing'.

Truth is the reason why you and Teriz disagree endlessly is because you both make the exact same arguments to try to convince the other that you're right, when you can see why there could be a Demon Hunter class and not Tinker and him vice versa.

Oh, you get it wrong there, as well. I am fully aware a Demon Hunter class has way too many impediments to be implemented, ability thematic overlap with rogues being one of the worst offenders. I just think that Demon Hunters have a better chance of being made into the game, but I still think the two are very unlikely to happen.