Rulkan and other such lore fallacies

[Trassk]

I was thinking, after questing in shadowmoon again today on an alt, and coming to exiles rise and doing quests for Rulkan. It made me think about rise of the horde, the story that lead up to the original corruption of the orcs, and how such characters fell to kil'jaedens will because of it.

In that, I felt kind of sorry for ner'zhul, because kil'jaeden took the form of Rulkans spirit, manipulating him into doing his will, so even though he went on a dark path in that, you kind of felt sorry for him because he just wanted to speak with his wife and follow her wisdom.

But there is comes one of the problems with rise of the horde and wows original lore, and whatever they did in warlords of draenor. For one thing, I don't buy this crap being said that this is a different timeline as there excuse for writing things in a different or contrived way, since taking the timeline rules, all that has happened is because of Garrosh going back in time, he caused this timeline to change because of his actions in it, such as preventing Grom and the orcs from drinking the demons blood, and sparking the creation of the iron horde. It still follows the same timeline from what came from rise of the horde, it just had a different outcome.

This is where it feels like the current writers (namely one story dev I shall not mention) isn't playing to any kind of connectivity between what we know about the original lore, and this alternative timeline. Rulkan was meant to be dead but the time these events came about, infact is it because of her death that kil'jaeden used the form of her soul to trick ner'zhul into obeying him, which must have been the pattern of play that lead up to the events before the drinking of mannaroths blood.. only it can't be, because rulkan is clearly alive, so there couldn't be her ghost telling ner'zhul to kill the draenei.

there is a massive inconsistency in the way this story was presented, everything in warlords of draenor is self contained in whatever the fuck they wanted to do here, but outside of it you realize its just people like kosak not giving a shit about the details and going by the 'its cool so its okay' method of storytelling.

Don't get me wrong, there are things I like in warlords, such as yrel and durotans development, but as a long time lore fan I can't ignore the obvious liberties and fallacies they took with it. We don't even have to mention shit like doomhammers story and how Ogres are suddenly super intelligent conquerors.

[Fibh]

But there is comes one of the problems with rise of the horde and wows original lore, and whatever they did in warlords of draenor. For one thing, I don't buy this crap being said that this is a different timeline as there excuse for writing things in a different or contrived way, since taking the timeline rules, all that has happened is because of Garrosh going back in time, he caused this timeline to change because of his actions in it, such as preventing Grom and the orcs from drinking the demons blood, and sparking the creation of the iron horde. It still follows the same timeline from what came from rise of the horde, it just had a different outcome.

While I don't like the entire timeline story myself, you are clearly wrong.

They explained perfectly in the garrosh/kairoz short story. There are infinite different timelines, and this one was NOT created by garrosh travelling back in time. Kairoz picked this one specifically because of the minor differences in that timeline.

[Deleted]

Yes, but AU Ner'zhul too was involved when the Iron Horde was already formed, if i recall correctly. He was forced to join by Grommash.
In MU he was the "cause" of all, being deceived by KJ.
Somehow this timeline has been chosen on purpose, right because these differences exist. Archimonde seems to play a more active role too.

[Deleted]

While I don't like the entire timeline story myself, you are clearly wrong.

They explained perfectly in the garrosh/kairoz short story. There are infinite different timelines, and this one was NOT created by garrosh travelling back in time. Kairoz picked this one specifically because of the minor differences in that timeline.

This is true. But it's stupid. Pretty much the whole fun of an alternate timeline is to see what could have been if one small (or not so small thing) was changed. In this case it should have been Garrosh going back in time and warning the Orcs. When you just start throwing in random, unconnected changes, there's no sense of cause and effect, things are just happening because. And it removes any connectivity to the old lore. If you're familiar with the old Draenor lore, you don't get any sense of satisfaction by seeing the little nods to those things. Basically this whole "it's always been a different timeline" thing is an excuse for Blizzard to be lazy and not do research.

[Deleted]

This is true. But it's stupid. Pretty much the whole fun of an alternate timeline is to see what could have been if one small (or not so small thing) was changed. In this case it should have been Garrosh going back in time and warning the Orcs. When you just start throwing in random, unconnected changes, there's no sense of cause and effect, things are just happening because. And it removes any connectivity to the old lore. If you're familiar with the old Draenor lore, you don't get any sense of satisfaction by seeing the little nods to those things. Basically this whole "it's always been a different timeline" thing is an excuse for Blizzard to be lazy and not do research.

Think about that as new lore ^^.

[Deleted]

Think about that as new lore ^^.

New lore should not effectively render the old lore obsolete. There was plenty of opportunity for new lore on Draenor that didn't contradict the old. Like why exactly was it so important for Rulkhan to still be alive in this timeline? It adds nothing.

[Matius]

This is true. But it's stupid. Pretty much the whole fun of an alternate timeline is to see what could have been if one small (or not so small thing) was changed. In this case it should have been Garrosh going back in time and warning the Orcs. When you just start throwing in random, unconnected changes, there's no sense of cause and effect, things are just happening because. And it removes any connectivity to the old lore. If you're familiar with the old Draenor lore, you don't get any sense of satisfaction by seeing the little nods to those things. Basically this whole "it's always been a different timeline" thing is an excuse for Blizzard to be lazy and not do research.

I agree that it would be better to jump into exact same alternate universe, to see how things change because of Garrosh. But I disagree that the road they took is bad, there are infinite alternate realities with major or minor differences, Blizzard choose to explore the one that is similar but not exactly the same as main universe. I'm fine with that.

[Deleted]

New lore should not effectively render the old lore obsolete. There was plenty of opportunity for new lore on Draenor that didn't contradict the old. Like why exactly was it so important for Rulkhan to still be alive in this timeline? It adds nothing.

Infact i'd say that the point is "this a new lore unrelated with original one".
About Rulkhan... onestly don't know.

[turboether]

There isn't a situation in where Garrosh going back and warning the Orcs in MU's timeline that would actually work. There is no way he would have convinced Ner'zhul that the vision of his wife was not real. The AU is specifically set up so that Garrosh could influence the only warlord he had the slightest chance in convincing, and even then only when specifically manipulated so he would have nothing left to lose and everything to gain. This means removing as many positive connections to drinking the blood as possible, which means removing Ner'zhul from the Coolaid Club advocacy, which means Rulkhan lives.

Apart from that, Rulkhan in WoD only serves as a character building device for Ner'zhul and a notion to the Alliance players that not all Orcs on Draenor are savage beasts out to frighten their children. She is the link to the shaman's good side that is rarely touched on and cements the character as one of overt extremes. Ner'zhul's story doesn't change much in the AU as you might think. In the end, he is still emotionally driven to do evil things and does not regret his actions in the end.

[Deleted]

I agree that it would be better to jump into exact same alternate universe, to see how things change because of Garrosh. But I disagree that the road they took is bad, there are infinite alternate realities with major or minor differences, Blizzard choose to explore the one that is similar but not exactly the same as main universe. I'm fine with that.

But it's why they chose to go down that route that is the problem. They clearly did this so they could be lazy and not have to *gasp* pay attention to past lore. It's like the embodiment of their poor story telling.

[Kathranis]

I was thinking, after questing in shadowmoon again today on an alt, and coming to exiles rise and doing quests for Rulkan. It made me think about rise of the horde, the story that lead up to the original corruption of the orcs, and how such characters fell to kil'jaedens will because of it.

In that, I felt kind of sorry for ner'zhul, because kil'jaeden took the form of Rulkans spirit, manipulating him into doing his will, so even though he went on a dark path in that, you kind of felt sorry for him because he just wanted to speak with his wife and follow her wisdom.

But there is comes one of the problems with rise of the horde and wows original lore, and whatever they did in warlords of draenor. For one thing, I don't buy this crap being said that this is a different timeline as there excuse for writing things in a different or contrived way, since taking the timeline rules, all that has happened is because of Garrosh going back in time, he caused this timeline to change because of his actions in it, such as preventing Grom and the orcs from drinking the demons blood, and sparking the creation of the iron horde. It still follows the same timeline from what came from rise of the horde, it just had a different outcome.

This is where it feels like the current writers (namely one story dev I shall not mention) isn't playing to any kind of connectivity between what we know about the original lore, and this alternative timeline. Rulkan was meant to be dead but the time these events came about, infact is it because of her death that kil'jaeden used the form of her soul to trick ner'zhul into obeying him, which must have been the pattern of play that lead up to the events before the drinking of mannaroths blood.. only it can't be, because rulkan is clearly alive, so there couldn't be her ghost telling ner'zhul to kill the draenei.

there is a massive inconsistency in the way this story was presented, everything in warlords of draenor is self contained in whatever the fuck they wanted to do here, but outside of it you realize its just people like kosak not giving a shit about the details and going by the 'its cool so its okay' method of storytelling.

Don't get me wrong, there are things I like in warlords, such as yrel and durotans development, but as a long time lore fan I can't ignore the obvious liberties and fallacies they took with it. We don't even have to mention shit like doomhammers story and how Ogres are suddenly super intelligent conquerors.

Go read the official short stories.

There are infinite timelines and each timeline is different.

Kairoz send Garrosh to this timeline because it was different. Garrosh was never born in this timeline, so Grom didn't recognize him as his son and assumed he was a stranger. Rulkan never died in this timeline, so Kil'jaeden couldn't use her to manipulate Ner'zhul, and thus Ner'zhul didn't use his status as High Shaman to unite the orcish clans against the Draenei, leaving Gul'dan in a weakened position that Garrosh could undermine.

[Combatbutler]

But it's why they chose to go down that route that is the problem. They clearly did this so they could be lazy and not have to *gasp* pay attention to past lore. It's like the embodiment of their poor story telling.

Exactly, I can't wait until this filler expansion is over and we get something meaningful.

[frangeek]

For one thing, I don't buy this crap being said that this is a different timeline as there excuse for writing things in a different or contrived way, since taking the timeline rules, all that has happened is because of Garrosh going back in time, he caused this timeline to change because of his actions in it...

Well... You'll have to buy it, because it is true.
Kairoz told Garrosh that this Draenor was different from our own, he specifically said that there were infinite worlds and he chose this specific one because it is the most suitable to their plan.
Garrosh was never conceived, the war between Orcs and Draenei never started (remember that the war began way before the orcs drank the blood)
, KJ approached Gul'dan and not Ner'zhul, Maraad doesn't exist apparently, etc.

Basically, this world and its characters are most likely completely different from the ones in the original lore. Don't disregard what we know about our characters because of WoD, this is actually an alternate world.

[Deleted]

Exactly, I can't wait until this filler expansion is over and we get something meaningful.

It's not even that it makes the story filler. Technically this AU can still have an impact on our main universe, and thus it won't be filler. But it just irks me how little Blizzard cares for prior lore.

[Mekkle]

Go read the official short stories.

There are infinite timelines and each timeline is different.

Kairoz send Garrosh to this timeline because it was different. Garrosh was never born in this timeline, so Grom didn't recognize him as his son and assumed he was a stranger. Rulkan never died in this timeline, so Kil'jaeden couldn't use her to manipulate Ner'zhul, and thus Ner'zhul didn't use his status as High Shaman to unite the orcish clans against the Draenei, leaving Gul'dan in a weakened position that Garrosh could undermine.

This a thousand times.

[Traveler Voltin]

Exactly, I can't wait until this filler expansion is over and we get something meaningful.

No such thing

[Stormspellz]

This is true. But it's stupid. Pretty much the whole fun of an alternate timeline is to see what could have been if one small (or not so small thing) was changed. In this case it should have been Garrosh going back in time and warning the Orcs. When you just start throwing in random, unconnected changes, there's no sense of cause and effect, things are just happening because. And it removes any connectivity to the old lore. If you're familiar with the old Draenor lore, you don't get any sense of satisfaction by seeing the little nods to those things. Basically this whole "it's always been a different timeline" thing is an excuse for Blizzard to be lazy and not do research.

small things like garrosh not being born or Nerzul never was contacted by KJ...you mean like those small things..

[Okacz]

While I don't like the entire timeline story myself, you are clearly wrong.

They explained perfectly in the garrosh/kairoz short story. There are infinite different timelines, and this one was NOT created by garrosh travelling back in time. Kairoz picked this one specifically because of the minor differences in that timeline.

I'd love to see Kairoz doing the research. Like, he is searching through the AU database:

"Hmm, what do we need? For starters, let's make sure rock flayers are out of the equation, they could destroy everything. Filtering... okay, were down to 354 combinations. Let's see. Oh, this one has Rexxar changing the names of his companions, that's brilliant! Hmm, still 53 combinations like that. Maybe Rulkan being alive for some reason? Bingo, down to 2! Oh, and this one also has Garrosh not being born yet! Heh, that's gonna be a cool joke on the guy!"

There's also an option that it was just bullshit, and the universes aren't any different. Blizzard guys just messed some parts up.

[WintersLegion]

The people who keep calling them filler expansions must be having a really bad time since first MoP according to them is a filler expansion and Warlords is the first expansion pack that is a direct result of the previous one and they have already said that is also the plan for the next expansion meaning that one will be a filler as well.

[Selah]

The people who keep calling them filler expansions must be having a really bad time since first MoP according to them is a filler expansion and Warlords is the first expansion pack that is a direct result of the previous one and they have already said that is also the plan for the next expansion meaning that one will be a filler as well.

Chalk it up to people liking to complain about things that aren't perfectly tailored to what they want. The reality is Blizzard needs to start telling new stories and developing new characters now before we go into the Burning Legion expansion and that's exactly what they're doing, because once we've defeated the Burning Legion there is going to be a huge need for new and original lore.