Guild ret palas pulling low numbers

[Revolve]

Hey everyone. We have two ret paladins on trial in our guild and it frankly feels like they're pulling way too low numbers compared to everyone else. One of the paladins has a normal weapon which feels like a legitimate excuse, but I'm still a bit concerned about them and I would like to know what they can do better. I'd greatly appreciate if you could take a look at this log from our Twins Mythic kill tonight, just see if you spontaneously see anything major that they're doing wrong. I have no clue myself how Ret palas work, so if anyone has a few extra minutes to spare I'd appreciate if you could take a look.

Here's the log for Twins Mythic.
EDIT: Log from Twins Mythic the night before the kill, 21 wipes (4 at less than 10%)

[Engagement]

Just looked at your two paladins. Gear levels 662/663. IMO they should be doing around 25-26k dps. Part of this MAY be how you guys are doing Twins? During quake it can be very hard to avoid fire etc. while also dpsing as melee.

Either way I would say their dps is pretty low. I'm 666 ilvl now and pull 26-27k on mythic Twins. Best bet is to redirect them to this thread to look at rotations/priority lists and just getting used to doing the fight and being able to do damage while avoiding fire. From taking a quick look at their logs it looks like their hammer of wrath damage as a percentage is low.

[Deleted]

On this fight they should both be alternating FV and DS every time. If theyre using Glyph of Double Jeopardy (which they should be) they need to be alternating targets each time they use judgement. Light's Hammer is also much stronger than Execution sentence on this one.

[Deleted]

I got same dps with 650 iLvL, but maybe just unlucky try for both (no procs, no crits, etc.)
Plas atm are quite proc and crits dependent.

[Ozeeel]

On this fight they should both be alternating FV and DS every time. If theyre using Glyph of Double Jeopardy (which they should be) they need to be alternating targets each time they use judgement. Light's Hammer is also much stronger than Execution sentence on this one.

Is the Light's Hammer really that good? I always thought that the ground effect is too unreliable.

[rahkarn]

When learning mythic twins if you have to hsac it may be better to glyph hsac, dp, and TV.

Helps to survive. Do more damage alive.

they did both die, might want to start there with improving dps.

also make sure if you follow the advice of jorj who seems pretty knowledgeable make sure that your two rets aren't FV/DS weaving when there is only one boss in range.

[Varabently]

On a seven minute fight they should be using more than 3 AWs right?

0:00
2:00
4:00
6:00

[rahkarn]

one of the rets is using DP. I'd suggest he try another talent. the other needs to double pot. try using simcraft to see what their damage should be.

Can't stress enough how much more damage you deal alive than dead.

[Deleted]

one of the rets is using DP. I'd suggest he try another talent. the other needs to double pot. try using simcraft to see what their damage should be.

Can't stress enough how much more damage you deal alive than dead.

Why would you suggest that? DP is THE cleave talent, and Twin Ogrons is THE cleave fight.

[Revolve]

Thank you so much for the responses everyone. I know that they both died in the log linked, I was hoping you could still get something out of how they performed their rotation, CD management etc. I probably should've have linked this from the start, it's a log from the progression night before the kill. About 4 attempts that were almost full fight, the rest are wipes on different %. One thing I'd like to point out is that I don't think our tactics should be blamed, they're probably not 100% optimal but other melees perform better in the context of their specs and their gear, so it's definitely an individual problem. Once again, thanks everyone for the responses so far, I'll try to make something out of it and direct it to our paladins.

[Wrecktangle]

I looked at the logs for the ret Jekina because he uses the same build as me. Granted I died like a scrubber to arcane charge about a minute and a half prior to kill timer (he died a minute prior) one thing I noticed was his J casts where > than his CS casts and he had more than twice as many exorcisms than I did. This to me looks like either poor positioning (due to strat, or comfort with the fight hence more ranged attacks) or poor prioritization.

I can't really troubleshoot a seraphim ret pal wish I could help.

[Deleted]

I've been having similar issues in this particular fight. Often I'm faced with a fair bit of downtime when stuff doesn't proc, tripled with having to move from fire and the shield charge. We wiped 20 times on this on our last raid, so I don't think we've got the strat hammered down yet. Unfortunately I find it a struggle to keep a high amount of damage when I'm having to run out with arcane volatility, or if I have to move for the shield charge, and when I'm having to dodge fire. I still can't link logs so if you want to check out our guild's logs then search for the guild Recklessness on Stormscale-EU. Some of my damage numbers don't make pretty reading but that's mainly due to my premature deaths.

I don't seem to be the only melee class struggling on this..so it kinda leads me to think that it's our strat that's off. But I'm still trying to get my head around the priority system. I am using DP/FV for this...but I haven't tried LH on this one because in our runs the bosses are seldom held in one place for long.

[stackcats]

Yea the fight is just really unfriendly, and looking at your M Kargath fight prior

They're doing pretty good, esp Fwend with a 654 ilvl and normal weapon

[Makh]

It looks like its mostly poor DPS caused by difficulty with mythic mechanics. Their gearing is correct, and their rotations don't look too bad (just buff uptimes are poor, which is what we expect from DPS too focused on raid mechanics).

Jekina needs to realize that exorcism is a bad spell, and should only be used if everything else is on cooldown.

I'd also strongly recommend that Fwerd not spec Seraphim on movement intensive progression fights like twins. The rotation is the most difficult and complex to execute, and is dependent on being able executive without interruption. FV is much easier to use, has a 10 yard range, and spreads out its benefit over the whole fight - so it is less penalized by having to move out of melee during inopportune times.

(HA and Seraphim are the two 'high burst' talents. I strongly recommend against using these during a chaotic fight, because if you lose even a few seconds of uptime during your burst, you can easily lose 20% of their benefit. DP/FV on the other hand has the least burst, and instead spreads its extra DPS throughout the fight. Losing a few seconds has little impact on their contribution. This similarly applies to progression fights - if you're focusing on new raid mechanics, it's hard to execute "high maintenance" specs like HA and Seraphim effectively. DP/FV on the other hand will suffer less due to player error)

[Curulan]

Is the Light's Hammer really that good? I always thought that the ground effect is too unreliable.

Twin Ogrons splits one health pool between two targets. Light's Hammer is generally better when dealing with 2+ targets to begin with, but any time you can do damage to both of them with one ability, the faster they fall down -- especially since they are going to be less than 20 yards away from each other (the diameter of Light's Hammer's effect) for most of the fight. The same logic applies to Seal of Truth/Censure if you can maintain the DoT on both of them.

Less related to "killing bosses," but keep in mind that LH also heals whatever party members are inside the area of effect. More healing on tanks = Tanks less likely to die.

[rahkarn]

Why would you suggest that? DP is THE cleave talent, and Twin Ogrons is THE cleave fight.

I'd rather have the most control over where my damage comes from, not a chance to proc. Sure the top ret so far chose dp but a majority of the others use sw/ha