Rdruid, Haste vs Mastery (indepth explanation wanted)! all input is appreciated

[Thalur]

Before you ask where do I get my numbers, they're from my own spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...nb-7ck4t-oi6Yc. As it's something I've made, I'm not 100% certain it's accurate (it has some minor assumptions as well), so if you find any mistakes, I'm happy to be proven to be wrong.

Just to make sure I understand your spreadsheet correctly. With your current setup for Butcher, haste "only for hot increase" is almost as strong as mastery, while "full haste benefit" is more than twice as strong as mastery? So that would mean full haste is by far the better option for Butcher, or am I missing something? I would say I have unlimited mana for Butcher (with pot, excluding Regrowth and first 30s dps).

While I haven't done mythic Imperator yet, I can image that the healing style will be very different from Butcher. However, aren't there also some high-throughput phases where your throughput is important? Not that I would use the "full haste" value, however not counting it at all sounds a bit drastic. Even if it's only beneficial in small parts of the fight, since haste and mastery are pretty close otherwise this might also lead to going a bit more into the haste direction.
Guess I can say more about that fight when I have actually done it, hopefully starting this reset

[Alzu]

Just to make sure I understand your spreadsheet correctly. With your current setup for Butcher, haste "only for hot increase" is almost as strong as mastery, while "full haste benefit" is more than twice as strong as mastery? So that would mean full haste is by far the better option for Butcher, or am I missing something? I would say I have unlimited mana for Butcher (with pot, excluding Regrowth and first 30s dps).

Yes, haste is better for Butcher. Any fight that's not limited by mana haste is by far the best stat. After you start running oom, haste devalues and you should use the smaller value.

And yes, haste is the most valuable in healing intensive phases. But that's impossible to calculate and must be estimated so feel free to add value to haste's HPM increase yourself.

[theburned]

I'd still like to see where most people is getting the "Haste is always better!" from. So far, mastery is still better in terms of HPM which is 99% of the time the limiting factor.

Only HoTs get increase in healing done from haste and surprisingly the HoTs are only ~60 - 80% of our healing for each fight with extremes being as low as 50%. Above 80% I don't see them ever being. (Healing distributions are from my own logs.) This diminishes the value of haste immensely in terms of HPM.

Before you ask where do I get my numbers, they're from my own spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...nb-7ck4t-oi6Yc. As it's something I've made, I'm not 100% certain it's accurate (it has some minor assumptions as well), so if you find any mistakes, I'm happy to be proven to be wrong.

Of course when you are behind in healing and really want to press the buttons, haste is the best stat (even better than intellect, I might add). But that's impossible to calculate so you will just have to estimate yourself how important you choose to keep haste. I personally find mana more important than panic healing, so I go mastery.

Okay, so there is a few things wrong about your math, first of all ysera's gift it is only affected by hp thus, that is 5% of your healing taken out of the equation.
Second we have the haste value, due to multiplicative stacking haste would be 90/1.05^2 (attunement + raid buff)
third is diminishing returns which is very variable depending on gear and enchants, but mastery tends to be quite a bit higher than haste due to high baseline + raid buff. But in your case of 17.5% vs 33% it greatly favors haste.
Fourth haste basically makes regrowth cheaper by having more OoC proccs, thus leaving you with less mana spent.

a very small addition is that during BL the haste stacks multiplicatively so there is some extra gain from haste, but well I have a paradox issue here where this might apply just as much to the other stats, eitherway in most cases you have enough extra healing during BL so I consider it too insignificant to even bother actually look into it.

Additionally looking at the butcher fight, you seem to want heavier output during HotW and (assuming ToL) you would want more throughput in a shorter amount of time with heavier heals from cds, during ToL you would want to use spells all the time, haste makes you able to do that. On the other hand in this fight, having a stronger tranq is also useful, and having a faster tranq is counterproductive, so I'll leave it at utility. While also ToL most likely used during BL (am I right?) thus being at the gcd cap anyway.
But in the end that means more haste also boosts the ToL quite heavy due to haste.

Having a faster tranq can be good at times, but in other cases you actually want a slower tranq to avoid overhealing, really dependant on what kinda damage you want to use it for.

Also quite surprised at your wild growth usage during imperator. I'm sure you could have substituted some of those rejuvs for wild growths for quite a lot of extra healing. (this might be a math vs playstyle issue though) Same with healing touch usage, no further comment on that though.

For us who have to compensate for bad raid members doing sub-par dps, the haste also increases your dps unlike mastery. And surely you have one or two fights where you can find it useful to do 50k-60k dps during the first 40 seconds with BL.

in the end this all of this should up to something above the 25% that your spreadsheet assumes, and that is for imperator like fights.

EDIT: Okay read through your 2nd post, and well you have already mentioned the multiplicative difference. Also noticed you mentioned the tranq thing. Also adding some waiting time every 3-5 casts instead of 0.06 sec after every cast is unreasonable, but adding 0.3 sec after 5 casts is perfectly doable, also from the start I assume you have some waiting time between each rejuv too.

OT: poor Paragon raiders, being mistaken for Method.

[Thalur]

Second we have the haste value, due to multiplicative stacking haste would be 90/1.05^2 (attunement + raid buff)

The haste calculations in the spreadsheet are correct, though done a bit awkwardly.

Remember that your charscreen haste rating already includes the haste attunement, that's why he left it out. The haste raid buff is there.

[theburned]

The haste calculations in the spreadsheet are correct, though done a bit awkwardly.

Remember that your charscreen haste rating already includes the haste attunement, that's why he left it out. The haste raid buff is there.

yeah, added this in the edit.
Also not really sure how all his calculations are done, so he might've taken all these points into account in his spreadsheet.

[Alzu]

Okay, so there is a few things wrong about your math, first of all ysera's gift it is only affected by hp thus, that is 5% of your healing taken out of the equation.

The healing distribution is normalized to remove LS/YG/NV heals completely. It's there just for players to use their own distributions that they can just add there and it'll calculate it correctly. Otherwise we'd not be adding to 100%.

Second we have the haste value, due to multiplicative stacking haste would be 90/1.05^2 (attunement + raid buff)

Both the haste buff and attunement have been taken care of. The 90 rating per % for haste is just there to start the calculations and again, make the spreadsheet more user friendly. If you had the attunement taken care of there, you'd have to calculate the haste from every item separately instead of just looking your character screen.

third is diminishing returns which is very variable depending on gear and enchants, but mastery tends to be quite a bit higher than haste due to high baseline + raid buff. But in your case of 17.5% vs 33% it greatly favors haste.

What favours haste? More mastery makes mastery less valuable in comparison to others, like with all other stats. The numbers there are from my gear and a realistic scenario. Of course if someone has 2k mastery and 0 haste, haste is obviously better for them.

Fourth haste basically makes regrowth cheaper by having more OoC proccs, thus leaving you with less mana spent.

a very small addition is that during BL the haste stacks multiplicatively so there is some extra gain from haste, but well I have a paradox issue here where this might apply just as much to the other stats, eitherway in most cases you have enough extra healing during BL so I consider it too insignificant to even bother actually look into it.

The spreadsheet doesn't take mana into play anywhere, so taking CC procs into account is not the point. And even if it did, the extra CC procs wouldn't be too much mp5, I'd imagine.

The sheet also just takes basic healing without cooldowns into account. BL is usually used for DPS in the pull when you never need healing. Modeling different fights and lust timings is impossible (for me at least) and like you said, the issues is very insignificant.

Additionally looking at the butcher fight, you seem to want heavier output during HotW and (assuming ToL) you would want more throughput in a shorter amount of time with heavier heals from cds, during ToL you would want to use spells all the time, haste makes you able to do that. On the other hand in this fight, having a stronger tranq is also useful, and having a faster tranq is counterproductive, so I'll leave it at utility. While also ToL most likely used during BL (am I right?) thus being at the gcd cap anyway.
But in the end that means more haste also boosts the ToL quite heavy due to haste.

Having a faster tranq can be good at times, but in other cases you actually want a slower tranq to avoid overhealing, really dependant on what kinda damage you want to use it for.

As the distributions are from my own raids, I didn't want any output during HotW. It was only for DPS. And like I said in my previous post, haste is better for Butcher as you have the resources to cast pretty much everything you want there.

Generally, ToL is used when you are behind in healing or just to keep up with the damage. In those scenarios, haste is great. Especially as the mana cost of Rejuvenation is reduced for a limited time so you might get an extra cheap cast then. But again, this is something that's very hard to simulate so you need to make your own conclusions about how much you want to give haste value because of this.

Also quite surprised at your wild growth usage during imperator. I'm sure you could have substituted some of those rejuvs for wild growths for quite a lot of extra healing. (this might be a math vs playstyle issue though) Same with healing touch usage, no further comment on that though.

WG heals random targets and is roughly the same HPM as Rejuvenation but is much much higher MPS (mana per second) than Rejuvenation so you pretty much should idle a long time after each cast. I prefer to have control over my heals with the same amount of healing (as mana is extremely restricted in that fight anyways) so I prefer to ditch WG completely.

I feel like WG's primary use is to get yourself out of mana. If you would end up with 25% mana with only Rejuvenation, better use a few WGs in fitting spots to get yourself OoM by the end of the fight.

For us who have to compensate for bad raid members doing sub-par dps, the haste also increases your dps unlike mastery. And surely you have one or two fights where you can find it useful to do 50k-60k dps during the first 40 seconds with BL.

Sure, mastery doesn't increase your Wrath's DPS but if you go NV, it does. Very rarely it's needed of you to sacrifice your healing for a DPS talent (HotW) but when you go spam that Wrath, yeah, haste is the way to go. I might add that even with DoC you want to go haste.

in the end this all of this should up to something above the 25% that your spreadsheet assumes, and that is for imperator like fights.

What I've said earlier has mainly focused on HPM of our spells. I maybe should've been a bit more clear on this. With my playstyle, you can go out of mana in any fight as I use WG only for that purpose. For all situations you OoM yourself in, the lower haste value is valid and where you don't oom, you use the higher. In between (like Butcher) you will have to estimate between those two numbers. Also as haste is more valuable in more critical moments, you will have to use your own thought anyways when looking at the values.

[theburned]

What I've said earlier has mainly focused of HPM of our spells. I maybe should've been a bit more clear on this. With my playstyle, you can go out of mana in any fight as I use WG only for that purpose. For all situations you OoM yourself in, the lower haste value is valid and where you don't oom, you use the higher. In between (like Butcher) you will have to estimate between those two numbers. Also as haste is more valuable in more critical moments, you will have to use your own thought anyways when looking at the values.

In the end most of my post is nullified by the fact that your spreadsheet had already taken everything into consideration.

Also wasn't sure about the HotW on butcher, personally I would've used your approach due to the dps race there, just made a bad assumption based on other forum posts.

the CC proccs should average out in roughly the same amount of extra regrowth casts as the haste, thus counting it as a HoT is not too unrealistic.

Guessed most of the other things that I haven't mentioned. I am still not entierly sure of which situations do you use HT and why?

[Alzu]

I am still not entierly sure of which situations do you use HT and why?

When you want cheap and slow single-target heals where HoTs are too slow. Like if 5 players in the raid are taking 50k damage every 5 seconds, might as well just HT them because Rejuvenation will overheal but the damage intake is still very low overall.

[Sprucelee]

When you want cheap and slow single-target heals where HoTs are too slow. Like if 5 players in the raid are taking 50k damage every 5 seconds, might as well just HT them because Rejuvenation will overheal but the damage intake is still very low overall.

I am curious about your usage of WM on Imperator?

[flooressence]

Mastery sounds very dependant on tranq, it's the sole reason it's simming better. Haste just seems like an all round better stat when that 3 min cd isn't up. Rejuv is our best spot healing spell, it's the best stat for hectic moments, and ultimately there's very few situations where tranq isn't strong enough and needs more mastery stacked (in many cases it overheals). I personally will be sticking with haste, spot healing > padding.

edit: Looks like Sonie from Method has switched over to haste, I imagine more will follow after the recent haste changes.

[Alzu]

I am curious about your usage of WM on Imperator?

It's a difficult fight to get proper mushrooms set, as both melee and ranged are usually moving. Its healing done for me should've been higher but as it's an expensive spell, I usually rather wait for the proper moment to plant it instead of just setting it down when it falls. I had a 50% uptime on it, iirc. P4 is just a nightmare for the mushroom so no point using there and a couple of mistakes etc. dropped the uptime to that low.

[Sprucelee]

It's a difficult fight to get proper mushrooms set, as both melee and ranged are usually moving. Its healing done for me should've been higher but as it's an expensive spell, I usually rather wait for the proper moment to plant it instead of just setting it down when it falls. I had a 50% uptime on it, iirc. P4 is just a nightmare for the mushroom so no point using there and a couple of mistakes etc. dropped the uptime to that low.

Cool, I do the same for the most part. I try to place it so it allows for a shift from a correctly placed mine. But yeah, I hate wasting mana on it when you are forced to hop a mine that is placed oddly, or dealing with marks etc..

Also, It seems like NV is your preferred talent for Imperator?

[Nesaru]

What I'm getting from this thread is that both stats are very useful, and there is a lot of debate around which is best. Personally, I'm gonna switch full gems/enchants away from haste and over to mastery. In our next Butcher attempts, I'll play close attention do how things feel as well as the numbers I'm getting out compared to our attempts last week. If I'm happy, I'll stay. If not I'll either switch back completely or little by little transition back to haste a couple gems/enchants at a time depending on my observations.

At this point, the stats seem so close and so intricate that it doesn't appear possible to lay out on a spreadsheet which is "best"; I'm going to revert to experimentation and take a look at the results.

[Deleted]

we will enchant haste in BRF 100% sure couse the itens that drops from the raid will +/- 70% contain mastery so we will need the extra haste from enchants/gems

already did my BiS list and Mastery/Multistrike are the stats that appear more

[Deleted]

Also, It seems like NV is your preferred talent for Imperator?

NV is preffered because you can use it every 1.5 minutes, and it gives a small benefit to healing, and extra Damage output, when it's a 14minute fight or so, you get 9 uses of it, if you use it correctly, compared to the 2 of HotW. I'm sure HotW would be perfectly valid, however you can use NV with every tree, and every Tranq if you as a guild have your CD's planned correctly.

[Weissrolf]

NV doesn't work with Tranq, though. So it's more of a tree thing.

[Deleted]

NV doesn't work with Tranq, though. So it's more of a tree thing.

That's true, however if you're using tranq, it's generally a 'high HPS phase' so you will be using other spells around it as well thus the best benefit. On Mar'gok you try to limit your healing as much as possible until it's needed, hence you use NV when it's needed on those phases.

[Hoofshock]

Quick question (noob Druid here).

As a PvP resto, should I also focus on haste? I would believe so, but I just want confirmation from other Druids and not a stat prio list on Icy-veins or Noxxic or EJ.

[ryklin]

Quick question (noob Druid here).

As a PvP resto, should I also focus on haste? I would believe so, but I just want confirmation from other Druids and not a stat prio list on Icy-veins or Noxxic or EJ.

yeah haste is preferred by a lot pvp droods before the nerf anyways because of faster roots and cyclones as well as having great benefits to single target healing, usually though if you want to see exactly what you want to look like, look at the armory pvp ladder and copy some of the top players

[KrinKer]

I love how everybody in this thread is completly disregarding all other secondary stats druids can have. Devs have done a great job this time around to make them as close as humanly possible (other than versatility really) and it'S not just haste vs. Mastery anymore. Granted they are probably the "best stat" we have, but stacking one over the other doesn'T mean much.

What's even funnier is that most people (actually all people) are completly disregarding other talents that we have. Any druid that is going for an SotF build will use a completly different stat weight than a Germ druid. Sim seems to show that crit is actually pulling ahead of Mastery in such a build because in between WG cast you should be spamming Wrath for DoC which isn't modified by Mastery at all, hence why crit is pulling ahead, and I think that Multistrike might pull ahead at higher levels (granted that will need some testing.

Point is, in this xpac, other than for gems/enchants, don'T worry about the stats on a piece because an Int upgrade will completly truncate any minor secondary stat dip.